Deliberate arson attacks on SNCF's network

[WessexEclectic]

I don't think it's that of a mystery, you can bring out the any major piece of public infrastructure quite easily when you have access to the premises themselves (or most often even no access).

https://www.reelstreets.com/wp-content/uploads/1959/05/itajo-47.png

 

[stuving]

There certainly are precedents for this type of sabotage, reported in the media with pictures. A very similar attack happened at the signalling centre at Vaires-sur-Marne, stopping all traffic at Gare Paris Est, last year (23/24 January). I don't think the perpetrators have been identified.

At the time, I found reports of two similar events in 2021, though I did not keep any source records. One was in June near Valence. The other, in October, involved four sites on LGVs across France. Again, I've not heard of any culprits being identified for these.

Some media reports are describing this kind of attack as typical of left-wing extremists, but I don't think there's much fact behind that.

 

[Hellzapoppin]

Agree that obfuscation is not security.
That it is in the news all day long and the disruption so massive makes a copy cat attack more likely is my guess, hope I'm wrong.

My sympathy is particularly with all the fibre technicians who got phone calls this morning telling them their weekend or holiday was off and who are working around the clock on the repairs. And the testing specialists after that.

Fibre is easy to joint and test nowadays. Back in the day an 8 fibre cable could take up to 12 hours to repair if you were lucky. I suspect the French jointers will enjoy the overtime.

 

[ABB125]

The signalling on LGV Nord is 30 years old. Back then the French had not joined us innovative, thrusting Brits and still directly wired everything into local interlockings. The Germans still did until very recently. Hence the huge amount of cables, as every track circuit, and every set of points, will be cabled directly to the local interlocking.

Without wanting to sound stupid, how does it work if you don't wire directly to the interlocking? Some sort of lineside cabinet near the piece of infrastructure in question, which has a fixed power supply and also a control signal input from the "signalbox", which gets converted to a suitable voltage and current to operate the infrastructure?

 

[Bald Rick]

Without wanting to sound stupid, how does it work if you don't wire directly to the interlocking? Some sort of lineside cabinet near the piece of infrastructure in question, which has a fixed power supply and also a control signal input from the "signalbox", which gets converted to a suitable voltage and current to operate the infrastructure?

Send command messages from the interlocking down telecomms cables, to a trackside ‘module’, and then from there electrical cables to the signalling equipment in question. Much less cabling. Thats the base architecture of SSI signalling and everything that has followd it in the UK.

 

[deltic]

Any idea what Eurostar services may be cancelled on Sunday? News reports suggest services will be disrupted on Saturday and Sunday but Eurostar are selling tickets on all trains still. Have family travelling to Paris on Sunday.

I see there are now a few cancellations today, a lot more on Sunday and presently none for Monday.

 

[ABB125]

Send command messages from the interlocking down telecomms cables, to a trackside ‘module’, and then from there electrical cables to the signalling equipment in question. Much less cabling. Thats the base architecture of SSI signalling and everything that has followd it in the UK.

Thanks, I should really have known that!

 

[nwales58]

LGV Est unning as normal, according to SNCF-connect, so fully repaired.

Nord and Atlantique still on classic lines, 75-80% of services running.

 

[fandroid]

Send command messages from the interlocking down telecomms cables, to a trackside ‘module’, and then from there electrical cables to the signalling equipment in question. Much less cabling. Thats the base architecture of SSI signalling and everything that has followd it in the UK.

SSI ? Wow! that's been around in GB since Captain Deltic was a toddler.

 

[m0ffy]

My sympathy is particularly with all the fibre technicians who got phone calls this morning telling them their weekend or holiday was off and who are working around the clock on the repairs. And the testing specialists after that.

I imagine the ringtone sounded more like an old-timey cash register chime.

 

[D7666]

A pedant must speak.

The thread subject is "deliberate arson ......"

All arson is deliberate, there is no such thing as accidental arson

Not an excuse for further pedants to comment 'accidental arson' is the name of a cocktail drink .
_

SSI ? Wow! that's been around in GB since Captain Deltic was a toddler.

I Not clear if you are agreeing with or challenging the age of that type of comms w.r.t. SSI.

Anyway, that kind of thing way pre-dated SSI.

e.g. 1969 Saltley power box was a good example of large scale large area PSB all by comms from central interlocking at Saltley over copper telephone wires to remote trackside kit / interlockings ; contemporary Trent box similar.

Before that late 1950s design at least Sandbach, Wilmslow, etc, wherever else boxes in the early LMR AC electrification upgrade used similar comms over cable to remote kit. I'm sure there were some before that, can't think of any right now.

There are many many more examples, not a lot of point in listing them, as it'll be virtually all pre-SSI power boxes from 1960s.

 

[Backroom_boy]

The signalling on LGV Nord is 30 years old. Back then the French had not joined us innovative, thrusting Brits and still directly wired everything into local interlockings. The Germans still did until very recently. Hence the huge amount of cables, as every track circuit, and every set of points, will be cabled directly to the local interlocking.

Ah hence the Ansaldo signalling in places like Manchester South were somewhat of a retro step back as it was wired directly?

 

[D6130]

My sympathy is particularly with all the fibre technicians who got phone calls this morning telling them their weekend or holiday was off and who are working around the clock on the repairs. And the testing specialists after that.

....and working in torrential rain by all accounts!

 

[nwales58]

A pedant must speak.

The thread subject is "deliberate arson ......"

Probably a rapid or automatic poor translation.

French: voluntary fire = arson in english, involuntary fire = fire
French: involuntary homicide = manslaughter
(addition: at least Google translate gets the above correct)

Sécurité often means safety, not security.
Safety systems usually means signalling and possibly ATC, not safety as we think about it.
Recently english journalism writes about relative and absolute majorities. We call that minority and majority.
and so on

 

[Gloster]

There have also been references to signalboxes, when I think it should be relay rooms.

 

[MarkyT]

Ah hence the Ansaldo signalling in places like Manchester South were somewhat of a retro step back as it was wired directly?

From a cabling perspective, the Siemens Simis equipment employed at Bournemouth and Portsmouth differs little from much relay technology. Remote object controllers are grouped together in large equipment buildings at junctions and stations to which each object in the vicinity is connected via its own individual circuits that are routed through a complex cabling system via various intermediate junction boxes. The areas covered by each equipment building are large, similar to those covered by typical remote relay interlockings of the 1960s and 70. It definitely used far more trackside cabling than an equivalent SSI scheme with its distributed i/o, usually in small cabinets much closer to the trackside objects.

There have also been references to signalboxes, when I think it should be relay rooms.

I've seen that before in non-specialist reporting. Lineside enclosures (buildings, huts, cabinets) are 'boxes' containing signalling equipment. Many people know the term signalbox but may not be sure on the historic meaning of it in UK use. An easy mistake to make, especially in translation.

 

[nwales58]

There have also been references to signalboxes, when I think it should be relay rooms.

I've seen that before in non-specialist reporting. Lineside enclosures (buildings, huts, cabinets) are 'boxes' containing signalling equipment. Many people know the term signalbox but may not be sure on the historic meaning of it in UK use. An easy mistake to make, especially in translation.

and the french term used in the news is poste d'aiguillage which is broad whereas in english we only use more specific terms

Literally it means somewhere *pointwork* is controlled from (which happens to be accurate for cab signalling with no overlay), but that somewhere could be anything from a manned box downwards. A television set is a 'poste' for instance, for my generation at least.

I looked for an example where an automated or non-specialist translation could go badly wrong. How about:

The systems of needling are very regularly controlled for guaranteeing the security of passengers, the quality of the network and the fluidity of traffic

Les systèmes d’aiguillage sont très régulièrement contrôlés pour garantir la sécurité des voyageurs, la qualité du réseau et la fluidité du trafic.

(https://www.groupe-sncf.com/fr/groupe/coulisses/circulation-trains/aiguillage-trains)

Pretty obvious to people on here it actually means in real english:

Pointwork is inspected regularly for the safety of passengers and to avoid train delays.

If it sounds odd it's the wrong translation.

 

[Deepgreen]

Just a minor thing - all arson is deliberate, by definition.

 

[squizzler]

There have also been references to signalboxes, when I think it should be relay rooms.

I saw that term used in the Guardian. This is the UK mainstream media we are talking about. Those of us familiar with their quality of analysis and editorialising on HS2 (shout-out to that paper's Mr Jenkins!) hardly have confidence in reportage on high speed rail more generally.

 

[D6130]

Just a minor thing - all arson is deliberate, by definition.

Yep....see post #71!

 

[duesselmartin]

As to Eurostar using classic lines? Apart from technical duability, can it be done practically? Afterall drivers need route knowledge.

 

[martin2345uk]

It's been done the last couple of days using French pilot drivers.
French drivers don't necessarily need route knowledge in the same way it's needed in the UK.

 

[GordonT]

It's been done the last couple of days using French pilot drivers.
French drivers don't necessarily need route knowledge in the same way it's needed in the UK.

And spare staff to act as pilots - pas de problème.

 

[TSG]

From a cabling perspective, the Siemens Simis equipment employed at Bournemouth and Portsmouth differs little from much relay technology. Remote object controllers are grouped together in large equipment buildings at junctions and stations to which each object in the vicinity is connected via its own individual circuits that are routed through a complex cabling system via various intermediate junction boxes. The areas covered by each equipment building are large, similar to those covered by typical remote relay interlockings of the 1960s and 70. It definitely used far more trackside cabling than an equivalent SSI scheme with its distributed i/o, usually in small cabinets much closer to the trackside objects.

I don't have the pre-SIMIS architecture for Portsmouth to hand but I am familiar with systems of 60s/70s vintage. I would say the SIMIS-W, as implemented, covers a much larger area than any RRI I've ever come across, and thus uses a lot more cable. Apart from vital oddities like single line controls, you wouldn't see lineside circuits long enough to need repeat relays very often on a RRI scheme. By that point they either put it on microcore or TDM if further afield. Auto sections would get infilled with FDM.

SIMIS-W is capable of supplying functions over longer cables without the need for any kind of repeater. The relatively high voltage leaving the interlocking cubicle negates volt drop. I would guess that the interlocking buildings are very expensive compared to the cables (CAPEX anyway), so Portsmouth used the ability to supply over a long cable run to the max. Perhaps because of the long cable runs, SIMIS-W is fond of proving functions both ways which pushes up the core count too (yes, I know standards now would push RRI this way a little more, but not in 1970)

From memory, there may only be two interlocking buildings on the scheme. I would be confident that a greater number of smaller RRIs would have been used, with a combination of microcore/TDM and FDM reducing the amount of cable required. There are also a number of MCB-CCTV crossings on the scheme, which would likely have had a remote control system of some flavour, instead of directly cabled control/indications over SIMIS.

Whilst I grant you that both SIMIS and RRI use more cable than SSI, SIMIS is a central interlocking without any kind of data transmission. In the vicinity of a hauptbahnhof this is fine, but particularly for auto sections its the worst of both worlds. At least SIMIS uses less power cable....

 

[MarkyT]

I don't have the pre-SIMIS architecture for Portsmouth to hand but I am familiar with systems of 60s/70s vintage. I would say the SIMIS-W, as implemented, covers a much larger area than any RRI I've ever come across, and thus uses a lot more cable. Apart from vital oddities like single line controls, you wouldn't see lineside circuits long enough to need repeat relays very often on a RRI scheme. By that point they either put it on microcore or TDM if further afield. Auto sections would get infilled with FDM.

SIMIS-W is capable of supplying functions over longer cables without the need for any kind of repeater. The relatively high voltage leaving the interlocking cubicle negates volt drop. I would guess that the interlocking buildings are very expensive compared to the cables (CAPEX anyway), so Portsmouth used the ability to supply over a long cable run to the max. Perhaps because of the long cable runs, SIMIS-W is fond of proving functions both ways which pushes up the core count too (yes, I know standards now would push RRI this way a little more, but not in 1970)

From memory, there may only be two interlocking buildings on the scheme. I would be confident that a greater number of smaller RRIs would have been used, with a combination of microcore/TDM and FDM reducing the amount of cable required. There are also a number of MCB-CCTV crossings on the scheme, which would likely have had a remote control system of some flavour, instead of directly cabled control/indications over SIMIS.

Whilst I grant you that both SIMIS and RRI use more cable than SSI, SIMIS is a central interlocking without any kind of data transmission. In the vicinity of a hauptbahnhof this is fine, but particularly for auto sections its the worst of both worlds. At least SIMIS uses less power cable....

I take your point there would likely be more individual remote relay interlocking relay room sites in a 70s scheme than the SIMIS-W equipment rooms, as configured at Portsmouth. Remote relay interlocking areas varied in size quite widely according to supplier designs and technical preferences of the day. Some 1970s/80s interlockings on the southern were massive in relay rooms like Shortlands, managing to cover a very large area using vital reed FDM techniques to talk to the most distant objects, too far away for simple relay circuits, and there was at least one large 1960s/70s panel box on the Midland Region (Saltley, maybe others) that had all its relay interlockings for local and remote sites centrally located in the panel relay room. Many hundreds of channels of reed then spread out in cables to lineside equipment cabinets where remote relays operated signal and point equipment and collected indication states for transmission back to the interlocking and panel. Most schemes of that period used reed to some extent, for controlling and monitoring auto sections between major interlocking sites for example, and as backup 'override' controls for limited facilities when the main TDM telemetry failed, and an all signals at red control.

 

[nwales58]

Anarchists protesting against the JO have claimed responsibility to french media but no proof yet that the claim is real.

 

[D6130]

Anarchists protesting against the JO have claimed responsibility to french media but no proof yet that the claim is real.

Sorry....what does 'JO' stand for?

 

[Adsy125]

Sorry....what does 'JO' stand for?

Jeux Olympiques - Olympic Games.

 

[D6130]

Jeux Olympiques - Olympic Games.

Ah....of course. Silly me! Merci bien!

 

[D7666]

Ah....of course. Silly me! Merci bien!

Jeux sans frontières
Jeux sans frontières
Jeux sans frontières
Jeux sans frontières

Hans plays with Lotte, Lotte plays with Jane
Jane plays with Willy, Willy is happy again
Suki plays with Leo, Sacha plays with Britt
Adolf builds a bonfire, Enrico plays with it

etc

OK different games ......