Derailment near Carlisle - 19/10/2022 - 1715 Clitheroe Castle Cement Gb to Carlisle N.Y. (6C00)

[Neptune]

2H99 surely?

My bet would be on 158793 and 158904 being stuck in Carlisle.

They arrived on 2H94 1648 Leeds to Carlisle - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G90232/2022-10-19/detailed#allox_id=0 - this passed Petteril Bridge Junction at 19:28

2H99 was due to depart Carlisle at 20:13 (which was cancelled from Carlisle and restarted at Appleby around 80L).

The freight derailment happened between the arrival of 2H94 and departure of 2H99

Ah yes that’ll be it. I hadn’t taken notice of when it happened but that would confirm that it was 2H99 that was cancelled.

It looks like 2H96 terminated at Appleby and formed 2H99 from there to Skipton. I’m guessing the crews were taxied between Carlisle and Appleby and vv.

Realtime Trains | 2H99 2055½ Appleby to Skipton | 19/10/2022

Real-time train running information for 2H99 2055½ departure from Appleby to Skipton on 19/10/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Loaded

...and the pictures show that one has split and dumped a load of cement powder in the river!!

 

[Deepgreen]

You're definitely not alone - I emailed the BBC to complain about it for exactly the same reasons you outlined in the first paragraph. It's a misuse of basic terminology that can give a misleading impression, which is why I view it as important that it is used correctly.
Pedantic it may be, but "snooty" is going a bit far.

Anyway, back on topic, is there any rough estimate as to when the line will reopen?

Yes - the BBC has steadily become awful at describing events - it seems obsessed with using different (and wrong!) words to describe the same thing (unnecessarily). Their latest photo caption also calls it a "detrainment" rather than a derailment! A once-respected bastion of the Enghlish langauge has dumbed-down to a depressing degree.

 

[Purple Train]

The bit I was specifically referring to as snooty was this:

For which the poster has apologised.

Basic the terminology may be, but, 'utter ignoramus' is harsh. Do you make the specific distinction between train (a set of connected vehicles), and service (the specific schedule to which a train is aiming to operate)?

My apologies - I didn't see that bit. My fault for not reading back far enough!

Yes - the BBC has steadily become awful at describing events - it seems obsessed with using different (and wrong!) words to describe the same thing (unnecessarily). Their latest photo caption also calls it a "detrainment" rather than a derailment! A once-respected bastion of the Enghlish langauge has dumbed-down to a depressing degree.

One wonders when it will start writing its articles in "text speak" for the benefit of its readership...

 

[wilbers]

Its just briefly been on Look North (at 6.44). Showed the current state of the bridge from above.

 

[Ploughman]

Regarding the pictures I thought guard rails were used to stop vehicles going over the sides of bridges? Or is this bridge too low to be considered needing guard rails?

Bearing in mind that this is a junction site, the installation of Guard rails in the 4ft,which I assume is what you mean, would be difficult without removing the crossing track.

 

[DanNCL]

2H99 surely?

My bet would be on 158793 and 158904 being stuck in Carlisle.

They arrived on 2H94 1648 Leeds to Carlisle - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G90232/2022-10-19/detailed#allox_id=0 - this passed Petteril Bridge Junction at 19:28

2H99 was due to depart Carlisle at 20:13 (which was cancelled from Carlisle and restarted at Appleby around 80L).

The freight derailment happened between the arrival of 2H94 and departure of 2H99

The freight that derailed followed 2H94 from Hellifield.

 

[doningtonphil]

The RAIB report into the Derailment of the tanker train and subsequent fire at Llangennech didn’t conclusively determine the cause of the brake drag that locked the one wheelset and resulted in the massive wheel flats and false flange. See https://assets.publishing.service.g...a/file/1054063/R012022_220113_Llangennech.pdf ,clause 68.
The brake relay mounting fault was probably the cause of excessive brake block wear and dragging brakes on the wagon, but was not conclusively confirmed by RAIB to have caused the affected wheelset to lock. A significantly greater brake force will be required to lock a wheelset than the (much smaller) force that will cause a dragging brake.

I think the link is fairly well established and such a conclusion can be drawn, looking at clause 68. The circumstances which put air in the cylinders were very different from a fairly common dragging brake.
The ability to apply significant brake cylinder pressure just by 'wiggling' a Distributor on its insufficiently tightened fixing points 100% of the times it was attempted probably came as quite a shock. And the pressures achieved were pretty high
Wheel flats present a reason for the wheel not to rotate if it is sufficiently large and happens to maybe snag on the brake block or just decide it's more convenient to slide along the rail than to rotate, at which point an unpredictable abd possibly unique chain of events can occur

 

[wilbers]

It's at 12m:18s And just before that is a bit about Penrith, even shows my shops in the background of that.

BBC One - Look North (North East and Cumbria), Evening News, 21/10/2022

The latest news, sport and weather for the North East and Cumbria.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Millisle]

Presumably as with passenger stock there are not many wagons, particularly specialised ones, sitting around. How easy will it be to restore service to the customer in a situation like this? I would be interested if anyone can explain.

 

[Killingworth]

You're definitely not alone - I emailed the BBC to complain about it for exactly the same reasons you outlined in the first paragraph. It's a misuse of basic terminology that can give a misleading impression, which is why I view it as important that it is used correctly.
Pedantic it may be, but "snooty" is going a bit far.

Anyway, back on topic, is there any rough estimate as to when the line will reopen?

A usually reliable Northern source said this afternoon that they don't expect the lines to reopen before next weekend. The damage is severe. A challenge for Network Rail to achieve that.

 

[yorksrob]

To be honest, next weekend isn't bad going.

 

[_toommm_]

Two more photos, the first being an aerial shot of the bridge, showing how the parapet has gone completely. The second, a close-up of one of the wagon’s wheels, showing severe wheel flats. Credit Philip Haigh on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/1583429660217868288?s=46&t=ifQGgFTe-n_2ogLROpN2uw

Rail accident investigators RAIB reckon this week's freight train derailment at Carlisle was "almost certainly" caused by a wheel set with a false flange derailing on points. It says false flanges develop when wheels stop turning as a train continues to move.

 

[chiltern trev]

BBC Look North after 22.30 tonight described the load as concrete.

 

[800001]

BBC Look North after 22.30 tonight described the load as concrete.

In the BBC defence, what are they getting told, they will report what they are told.

 

[Killingworth]

To be honest, next weekend isn't bad going.

The words I heard were "not before next weekend" but looking at the damage that may be an optimistic estimate.

Maybe some limited use of one track can quickly be restored aa it seems to have suffered little damage but the other two look much more difficult.

When the cement train derailed in Sheffiejd they pumped the product into road wagons to lighten the loads for lifting. That process alone took a few days with the road almost alongside. A load of cement in the river may make a good test of the wagon's integrity.and lifting capacity.

 

[Chris M]

Looking at google maps, the closest point of stable surface for a crane not on a bridge is about 30-35 metres away from the furthest point it would need to reach to, so probably closer to 45-50 metres away for where the pivot point of a crane could be. If the wagons were full and can't be lightened that's about 100 tonnes + the weight of rigging, etc. Internet calculations suggest that would require a 600 tonne crane and getting them set up is quite a logistical operation itself, so I can't see them being ready to start lifting before Monday or Tuesday. Then there is the weather - you can't safely do that sort of lift in high winds - I don't know what the limits are, but the met office forecasts 10-15mph for the middle part of next week.

 

[DelW]

Looking at google maps, the closest point of stable surface for a crane not on a bridge is about 30-35 metres away from the furthest point it would need to reach to, so probably closer to 45-50 metres away for where the pivot point of a crane could be. If the wagons were full and can't be lightened that's about 100 tonnes + the weight of rigging, etc. Internet calculations suggest that would require a 600 tonne crane and getting them set up is quite a logistical operation itself, so I can't see them being ready to start lifting before Monday or Tuesday. Then there is the weather - you can't safely do that sort of lift in high winds - I don't know what the limits are, but the met office forecasts 10-15mph for the middle part of next week.

I don't think that crane size will work. For the last heavy lifting I was involved with (before I retired), we used a 750t crane to place a 60t steel footbridge at about 22m radius. That was a Liebherr LTM 1750, and looking at the load charts for that, even in its heaviest lift configuration (with stays on the boom, which we didn't need), it will only pick 45t at 40m, dropping to 37t at 46m. So it might manage an empty wagon but not a loaded one.

It would also need good ground. The crane weighs 108t + 204t ballast. With that plus the weight of the load, you'd get a maximum outrigger load of well over 200t. That would need substantial spreader pads unless there's an existing reliable hardstanding.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

This just got a mention on the Radio 2 travel report.

 

[deecee16]

I believe the photographer is under the bridge and the wagon is resting against the side of the bridge.

There's a short video on Youtube:

 

[Ken H]

Do they not have rail mouunted cranes for stuff like this?

 

[matacaster]

Do they actually need to recover those wagons quickly?
Why not push them with an excavator until clear of lines, then restore banking / trackbed and track.

Leave recovery until later, get trains running again.

 

[zwk500]

Do they actually need to recover those wagons quickly?
Why not push them with an excavator until clear of lines, then restore banking / trackbed and track.

Leave recovery until later, get trains running again.

Are you honestly suggesting the railway just dumps 3/4 wagons full of cement in a river? Come on, do you think there are no environmental regulations around that?

Also, now is the cheapest time to recover them, and the least disruptive for passengers. London Road yard is literally on the opposite side of the line, with road access. Before you put new track down, use the ballast as hardstanding for the crane and move all the damaged wagons into the yard. Then you can hand the line back as normal, rather than having to come back later and rip things up again (or hire a Chinook). Passengers don't have their line disrupted multiple times, and the railway doesn't have to take expensive environmental control measures to stop cement polluting the Petteril and Eden.
Assessment of the wagons can take place in it's own time, and then they can be moved by either rail or road, or even cut up on site if needed.

 

[Pinus contorta]

Don't think lifting anything like that with a helicopter is feasible not just because of the weight, but also the proximity of roads houses etc if something went wrong.

 

[zwk500]

Don't think lifting anything like that with a helicopter is feasible not just because of the weight, but also the proximity of roads houses etc if something went wrong.

It was a bit tongue-in-cheek as the site is very constrained so any ground-base crane is probably going to need to stand on the rail formation. A Chinook can carry up to about 12 tonnes, which means it could probably just about get an empty wagon to London Road but wouldn't be lifting a full one at all.
The most likely option is that the damaged track will be removed, then the crane will stand on the ballast with spreader boards, and once the wagons are recovered the track will be replaced.

 

[Pinus contorta]

Yea sorry i jumped in there too quick thinking of all the problems with lifting logs out of the forest with a helicopter and crew brought in from half way across Europe

1> How will the wagons be recovered from the river and near B&Q?

2> If the Heaton 156s need to go anywhere why do they have to go via Cumbrian Coast and not straight down WCML surely WCML is quicker?

3> How long will it take before repairs can start?

Realtime Trains | 5Z88 0655 Barrow-in-Furness to Heaton T&R.S.M.D. | 22/10/2022

Real-time train running information for 5Z88 0655 departure from Barrow-in-Furness to Heaton T&R.S.M.D. on 22/10/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Looks like a unit left barrow early doors this morning via the copy pit line ecs to Heaton

 

[_toommm_]

Is this due to be some of the trapped units going back to Neville Hill please?

Realtime Trains | 5E17 1115 Carlisle to Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D | 22/10/2022

Real-time train running information for 5E17 1115 departure from Carlisle to Neville Hill T&R.S.M.D on 22/10/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[66701GBRF]

It was a bit tongue-in-cheek as the site is very constrained so any ground-base crane is probably going to need to stand on the rail formation. A Chinook can carry up to about 12 tonnes, which means it could probably just about get an empty wagon to London Road but wouldn't be lifting a full one at all.
The most likely option is that the damaged track will be removed, then the crane will stand on the ballast with spreader boards, and once the wagons are recovered the track will be replaced.

One of these wagons are likely to be nearer 20t empty.

 

[zwk500]

One of these wagons are likely to be nearer 20t empty.

Fair enough

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Presume the still full wagons, in particular those in the river, will need to be emptied of their load of cement before being lifted/re-railed in order to reduce their weight. How will all the powdered (?) cement be shifted without further contaminating the area?