Desparately trying to buy a ticket - Southern Railway debacle

[island]

In fairness to Southern, their TVMs are already more flexible than most, allowing you to buy from other stations, including boundary zones, and for today, tomorrow, or next working day.

 

[Clip]

But what about the extra money that can be made by selling more tickets? I wonder how much that would offset the cost of extra staff at various stations?

But at a lot of stations they really do not have enough people travelling in the evening and buying from ticket offices to justify the spend on 2 clerks - thats why they have one.

Its not like we dont research this you know

 

[nomis1066]

Long time since I sold a ticket - but a shame you say that about ticket office staff - a good booking clerk was always worth his/her weight in gold in BR days - and must be even more so now given the bits and pieces railway we have.

If a clerk close a window before booked time there should be a good reason for it and it should be displayed for passengers to see.

 

[jon0844]

A few years back, Hatfield station (FCC) nearly always had its ticket office closed long before 8pm (sometimes as early as 6.30pm) on a Friday. I wonder if the staff were hiding behind the blind? Friday would usually be thought of as the one day where tickets might be sold in an evening too.

And as I think I've written on here before, they now seem to use agency staff that won't sell some tickets as they don't know how to find them or do things regarding season tickets. They just want to sell easy tickets.

Fortunately there are still some VERY good ones that 'know their s**t' and you hope are working when you go. Either getting served by them, or having them on hand to help when your person actually goes and asks (rather than flatly denies you can get such a ticket or that they can do it).

I'm sure the problem isn't TOC specific and comes down to a combination of factors. Not that a poor salary is always a good excuse.

 

[Smethwickian]

We normally get to the station about fifteen minutes before the train leaves to allow time to get tickets, but on one occasion could not do so as the ticket clerk was away from the window filling the machine, which we couldn't use either as he was servicing it. This would hardly pass as an excuse for boarding the train without a ticket so we had to miss it, wait until he had finished, then another thirty minutes for the next train.

We am travelling from the same station at a similar time tomorrow morning, and can not afford to miss our intended train, so as a result have had to make a special trip out this evening to buy our tickets. We deliberately went to a different station, run by a different TOC!

I, personally, can see absolutely no reason why you should have done that. Allowing yourself 15 minutes, when ticket offices are advertised as being open, seems perfectly adequate. I don't possibly understand how you would be at fault for boarding without a ticket under such circumstances as you describe. It's an entirely reasonable "excuse" as far as I can see and you shouldn't have to miss your train or consider going to another station next time.

 

[talltim]

This is an awful state of affairs, which needs to be stamped upon by ATOC and the DfT as a matter of priority.
Another problem we have seen is where you wait for a ticket office to open in the morning, and at the scheduled time, the clerk goes and spends twenty minutes replenishing the TVMs.

We normally get to the station about fifteen minutes before the train leaves to allow time to get tickets, but on one occasion could not do so as the ticket clerk was away from the window filling the machine, which we couldn't use either as he was servicing it. This would hardly pass as an excuse for boarding the train without a ticket so we had to miss it, wait until he had finished, then another thirty minutes for the next train.

We am travelling from the same station at a similar time tomorrow morning, and can not afford to miss our intended train, so as a result have had to make a special trip out this evening to buy our tickets. We deliberately went to a different station, run by a different TOC!

Actually I would say that is a very good reason to board without buying a ticket. Ticket office closed, TVM out of use.

 

[NLC1072]

Sounds to me like the booking office staff was on a double shift and has to close up early as 12 hours is the maximum permitted to work in a day and if the office is open for 14 hours as standard like a lot are then he'd have a right to refuse to sell tickets as this can get southern in more trouble than ignoring schedule 17. You may of kept the office staff from going home after he'd finished as you'd of been distracting him from cashing up and giving him a fear of being lynched on the way out!

 

[jon0844]

If staff want to protect their jobs, and not be replaced one day by TVMs, smart ticketing that does away with the need to speak to anyone, or everyone buying tickets online, they'll need to step up their game.

I appreciate some of it is down to the TOC, but that makes it all the more necessary to report such instances to someone that can do something about it.

The current situation is a mess. TVMs can't offer all the tickets people need, but you can't be assured you can get what you want from a ticket office either - even when it's open!

I now buy as much as I can online in advance, even a simple Travelcard, so I can just pick it up from a machine. I guess sooner or later I'm going to have problems with this (connection down or TVM out of paper stock and no staff) but it has done away with the long conversations about trying to get the right ticket to Heathrow or other non-standard ticket requests.

 

[Deerfold]

Sounds to me like the booking office staff was on a double shift and has to close up early as 12 hours is the maximum permitted to work in a day and if the office is open for 14 hours as standard like a lot are then he'd have a right to refuse to sell tickets as this can get southern in more trouble than ignoring schedule 17. You may of kept the office staff from going home after he'd finished as you'd of been distracting him from cashing up and giving him a fear of being lynched on the way out!

That doesn't explain why the blinds would be down with no explanation though.

 

[richw]

Sounds to me like the booking office staff was on a double shift and has to close up early as 12 hours is the maximum permitted to work in a day and if the office is open for 14 hours as standard like a lot are then he'd have a right to refuse to sell tickets

Who's rule is this? Unless its a safety critical role there is no time restrictions for how long someone can work in a day.
There is of course the Working Time Directive, but an employee can opt out of this by volunteering for overtime or agreeing to work over this. The Working Time Directive is also based on averages over a set time, not just on one day, so therefore an employer can tell you to work 3 x 14 hour shifts in a week and give you the other 4 days off in that week.

 

[talltim]

And if he was past the end of his 12 hour shift, why was he still there?

 

[radamfi]

I, personally, can see absolutely no reason why you should have done that. Allowing yourself 15 minutes, when ticket offices are advertised as being open, seems perfectly adequate. I don't possibly understand how you would be at fault for boarding without a ticket under such circumstances as you describe. It's an entirely reasonable "excuse" as far as I can see and you shouldn't have to miss your train or consider going to another station next time.

Unfortunately, that's not how a RPI would see it. In this circumstance, you can effectively consider the station closed to non-ticket holders. Non-ticket holders may have to consider alternative means of transport, travelling on a different day, or abandoning the trip altogether.

 

[Harpers Tate]

...and that, in a nutshell, illustrates what is arguably the biggest thing wrong with the modern-day railway culture;

that, whether or not there is a reasonable opportunity to buy one, boarding a train with no pre-purchased ticket may render one liable to fine, penalty or premium fare.

and that there is NEVER any excuse for doing so.

I am not claiming this is system wide nor that it applies to every (or even the majority of) member(s) of staff. It only needs a few, though, backed up by enforcement companies that behave in a similar fashion to wheelclampers, to make it an issue.

 

[Smethwickian]

...and that, in a nutshell, illustrates what is arguably the biggest thing wrong with the modern-day railway culture;

that, whether or not there is a reasonable opportunity to buy one, boarding a train with no pre-purchased ticket may render one liable to fine, penalty or premium fare.

and that there is NEVER any excuse for doing so.

I agree entirely, Harpers Tate. It is very disappointing.

Perhaps Radamfi would like everyone to make a prior appointment in order to purchase tickets at their local station?

It's asburd to suggest that a passenger, allowing themselves 15 minutes for a purchase but then unable to use either the ticket office or TVM, should be penalised.

Does Radamfi believe it would be the passenger's fault if the TVM were out of action for any other reason? Or the passenger's fault if a ticket office wasn't open at advertised times? Why should the circumstances described by the OP be any different - when both were unavailable for a reasonable amount of time through no action or inaction of the passenger?

Passengers aren't expected to queue at ticket offices for longer than strictly laid-down lengths of time. It's in the TOCs' franchises. Does Radamfi expect passengers to miss trains while they stand around for similar lengths of time waiting for ticket machines to be fixed? It is no different, surely?

Sorry to go on a bit, but I am really quite annoyed by this.

 

[maniacmartin]

i believe radamfi is expressing how he feels an RPI would see things, not his own views.

 

[radamfi]

Perhaps Radamfi would like everyone to make a prior appointment in order to purchase tickets at their local station?

Don't think that I agree with the situation. I am only stating the dire situation when you effectively are barred from the train network because you are unable to get a ticket because the ticket office was technically open, but in reality closed because of a long queue or, in this case, the clerk was servicing the ticket machine.

In the Netherlands you never need to queue for a ticket ever because of the nationwide smartcard system. In Belgium, you can seek out the conductor if you are in a rush and pay a slight surcharge. These are better alternatives than having to abandon your journey, or risk a penalty fare or worse.

 

[jon0844]

Smartcards can't come quick enough here. It does seem like there's progress, and a lot of these issues will be done away with.

Of course you'd need a smartcard, but these would hopefully be quite easy to obtain from various sources.

 

[SussexMan]

There is of course the Working Time Directive, but an employee can opt out of this by volunteering for overtime or agreeing to work over this. The Working Time Directive is also based on averages over a set time, not just on one day, so therefore an employer can tell you to work 3 x 14 hour shifts in a week and give you the other 4 days off in that week.

I think the only aspect of the Working Time Directive that an employee can opt out of is the Maximum Weekly Hours and these are usually calculated over a 17 week reference period anyway. I don't think an employee can opt out of other aspects of the Working Time Directive - but as you say they are averaged over a long period so there is nothing under the WTD to stop doing a long shift etc.

However, unions may have negotiated a collective agreement.

 

[maniacmartin]

And the employer cannot force you to opt out

 

[island]

And the employer cannot force you to opt out

Perhaps true in theory, but not necessarily in practice.

 

[richw]

I think the only aspect of the Working Time Directive that an employee can opt out of is the Maximum Weekly Hours and these are usually calculated over a 17 week reference period anyway. I don't think an employee can opt out of other aspects of the Working Time Directive - but as you say they are averaged over a long period so there is nothing under the WTD to stop doing a long shift etc.

However, unions may have negotiated a collective agreement.

When I used to do stupid overtime 5-6 years ago, when I was a single man living with parents to earn maximum money my employer made me sign a opt out disclaimer. I was voluntarily finishing at 2300 and starting again at 0700, some days I was working 0800- 2200. I was hitting 90 hours a week at one point!

 

[RJ]

Sounds to me like the booking office staff was on a double shift and has to close up early as 12 hours is the maximum permitted to work in a day and if the office is open for 14 hours as standard like a lot are then he'd have a right to refuse to sell tickets as this can get southern in more trouble than ignoring schedule 17. You may of kept the office staff from going home after he'd finished as you'd of been distracting him from cashing up and giving him a fear of being lynched on the way out!

I work in a ticket office. Where I am, in non safety critical roles, we're only bound by the Working Time Directive, so we could in theory work for longer than 12 hours in a day. However, in practice, they do tend to limit shifts to 12 hours.

 

[Clip]

I work in a ticket office. Where I am, in non safety critical roles, we're only bound by the Working Time Directive, so we could in theory work for longer than 12 hours in a day. However, in practice, they do tend to limit shifts to 12 hours.

Same most places - especially the TOCS Ive worked at. Very rare that any staff member does work 12 hours in the booking office even though some would for the extra money.

As you know and have read in this thread - staff know all the tricks to make it seem that the office is still open to management but closed to customers just so they can have an extra break when its quiet and so on.

Its very hard to stop them or catch them though I did once when I was stood by a ticket window for over 35 minutes with the blind closed. Imagine the clerks shock when he opened the blind to see me stood there and then claimed he had just popped to the loo. Quickly back pedalled when I told him I was there for that long and heard both the kettle and the microwave go in that time

 

[Harpers Tate]

i believe radamfi is expressing how he feels an RPI would see things, not his own views.

I'm sure that's the case and, for the avoidance of any doubt, my own comments weren't addressed at anyone in particular.

 

[Haywain]

Same at other TOCs. There may also be rules in place governing how much break is needed if staff work more than 12 hours. This may make it more effective to have shorter hours every day than full hours one day and none the next due to the staff member having an enforced rest day.

 

[34D]

As you know and have read in this thread - staff know all the tricks to make it seem that the office is still open to management but closed to customers just so they can have an extra break when its quiet and so on.

As this could result in people getting PF's this is really really bad.

 

[Clip]

As this could result in people getting PF's this is really really bad.

Indeed it is. What would you suggest? That management sit at every station so this doesnt happen?

We have to have alevel of trust in our staff and unfortunatly some abuse that trust be it what has gone on in this thead to also stealing and giving away free travel to their friends.

But we cannot monitor them every minute of the day so what do you suggest we do?

 

[Harpers Tate]

As this could result in people getting PF's this is really really bad.

what do you suggest we do?

There are two ends to this, aren't there? There is
a) the possibility that a ticket office may be inaccessible to a wholly honest passenger (either through an early/unannounced closure for whatever reason, or through an unreasonably long queue/delay) and there is
b) the subsequent treatment of such a passenger when they choose (quite understandably) to join their train anyway.

If we accept that we can NEVER totally address (a) - and we can't - then surely the only remaining option is to revisit the extent to which and the vigour with which we apply (b). We need to acknowledge that, actually, there may well be justifiable reasons for not pre-paying despite every intention to do so - and to judge and be prepared to accept such justifiable reasons as sufficient mitigation to not penalise the traveller.

 

[Clip]

There are two ends to this, aren't there? There is
a) the possibility that a ticket office may be inaccessible to a wholly honest passenger (either through an early/unannounced closure for whatever reason, or through an unreasonably long queue/delay) and there is
b) the subsequent treatment of such a passenger when they choose (quite understandably) to join their train anyway.

If we accept that we can NEVER totally address (a) - and we can't - then surely the only remaining option is to revisit the extent to which and the vigour with which we apply (b). We need to acknowledge that, actually, there may well be justifiable reasons for not pre-paying despite every intention to do so - and to judge and be prepared to accept such justifiable reasons as sufficient mitigation to not penalise the traveller.

You are correct. However, how do you tell the difference from an honest passenger and one who is trying it on? In theory it should be easy but from experience I know its not.

So we then need to find a situation that is good for all but as yet I am unsure if there has ever been a post that comes close to dealing with the problem.

 

[Muzer]

I think staff should start trying to catch these people out through slightly crazy means - put sensors on the "position closed" blinds for example so they can tell if they're closing them long before logging off their computer