Detailed route of HS2 into Manchester

[Nym]

OK, this is currently a work in progress, but it only has 1mi of tunnel and 6mi where it would affect the running of current lines, (shed load of work on the styal loop)

Is currently a work in progress, any ideas on where to go from here?

I've been thinking of how to get it into the Exchange campus, all I can come up with is approaching through Altringham allongside the metrolink.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=208537899835423960920.0004a1c27811f91894a8b

 

[dggar]

As a resident of Longsight I'm a little worried about your yellow tunnel.

Won't High Speed running cease on the approaches to Manchester.
Your curve into the airport(green) looks very tight No high speed running there.

An idea I've had is to approach Manchester running parrallel to the M6 from where it crosses the M56 to Thelwall Viaduct and onto the CLC Warrington Manchester line with a juction west of Glazebrook. at this point High speed running would cease. International trains would continue on via Castlefield and Oxford Road to International platforms in the Mayfield Campus. Domestic trains which would continue north to Glasgow using conventional lines would run on reinstated tracks from Glazebrook east junction towards Bagurey and Stockport and into domestic HS platforms at Mayfield.

 

[j0hn0]

to me this is harder than getting it into bham so good work there.

I would say that a through station at the airport is essential, like bhx will have, but as for the rest of it, well, looks extremely complicated!

My initial view of the plan, I thought that it was the black line that turned out to be the ship canal. Perhaps chance of following that? but probably not if we need to get to the airport

 

[Geezertronic]

You might have been better off adding this to your existing thread which already has some ideas and thoughts?

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=40084

 

[Nym]

to me this is harder than getting it into bham so good work there.

I would say that a through station at the airport is essential, like bhx will have, but as for the rest of it, well, looks extremely complicated!

My initial view of the plan, I thought that it was the black line that turned out to be the ship canal. Perhaps chance of following that? but probably not if we need to get to the airport

Manc Intl is going to be a through station, but I'm still working out the approaches for it

 

[stockport1]

picc has little to offer for through services without reversal

other options:

1. new station somwhere in the vicinity of current ardwick station?
lots of land and connections.

2.manchester central via didsbury line.

3 new station around odsall,victoria or mcr central via wcml/liverpool lines

 

[Nym]

There is an option for through platforms ar Piccadilly, but it would either be easyer to loop back out again via Manc Intl. If through platforms where needed and throught of from Minute 1, then the station would be needed to be built one floor above the current piccadilly then proceed down a new viaduct to the Central Campus and out of the city either through the Crecent and on the M601 alignment or on the M602 alignment, either of these wouldn't be that quick because of having to cross Manchester CC

 

[WatcherZero]

Tbh the way the governments caved and now the route through the Chilterns will be underground or in deep cutting for all but 1km im starting to worry the money will run out and by the time it gets here it will be 'on the cheap'.

 

[deltic]

HS2 wont go into Mayfield - with Northern Hub proposals if it does serve Piccadilly it will go alongside the east of the station.

It also wont go into Manchester Central or Ardwick. Having seen Northern Hub proposed service patterns - Salford seems to the place to go - massive increase in services

 

[cle]

Could it be possible that rather than Birmingham's true triangle with all HS trains in one station, with Manchester we see London and Birmingham trains using the northern side of Piccadilly (low platform numbers) and the trains towards Scotland originate at Victoria, or somewhere new on that side of town? Like a reopened Exchange or enhances Salford Central.

 

[Nym]

HS2 wont go into Mayfield - with Northern Hub proposals if it does serve Piccadilly it will go alongside the east of the station.

It also wont go into Manchester Central or Ardwick. Having seen Northern Hub proposed service patterns - Salford seems to the place to go - massive increase in services

Where in the approved northern hub proposals is this? I have read the propsal cover to cover.

Manchester Central: Rather than barking this at you I'll give some good reasons, the area just isn't big enough, 260m platforms would be available, perfectly fine for Altham and CLC stoppers to terminate but HS2 platforms need 430m.

Ardwick: Plenty of space but too far out to be useful, especially where clearing the Mayfeild area would be easy.

Salford, yeah, all well and good for Salford and services that push through that way, but how do you access Manchester Airport from a Salford bound approach, as anything that doesn't visit Manchester Airport is a frankly stupid idea, The only space large and sensible enough would be around Ordstall Lane, but again, this is way too far out to be useful to anyone, it would take 20mins to get there from Manchester CC and the Manchester CC transport interchanges so would be of little use to anyone, except the enhabitants of Salford Quays and Ordstall.

If Manchester HS2 Central is a through station, through services would loose any speed advantage for getting north of Manchester, it should be served in a manner similar to Birmingham, it reduces city penitration costs, but a more complex junction would potentially be needed at Manchester Airport, or an approach via Altringham into Exchange.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Some more updates to the map to stop me trying to discribe them in too much detail, any combinations of the lines are possible, but will diffinatly include the station at manchester airport.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=208537899835423960920.0004a1c27811f91894a8b

And I just realised the approach through Northenden is being used by the Metrolink, I'd bet theres space for both though, since it was origionally a gap wide enough for a motorway.

 

[WatcherZero]

Network Rail is currently planning to lengthen two of Man Pics bay platforms to accomodate the classic compatible HS2 services, touches on it in the HS2 Technical Report saying basically on HS2 Manchester a North/South route would require a new station probably underground, western approach route wouldnt go near Pic to avoid crossing the city centre and an Eastern apprach wouldnt go near Vic. Approaching similar to the Stockport line alignment (either west or east of the existing line) is most likely possibly involving the addition of the option 1 Ardwick flyover to complement option 2 and deal with throat issues along with building more Piccadilly bays north of the existing station (0 and -1 though that terminology isnt in the report itself) but that its unlikely the existing Stockport alignment would be used as there wouldnt be enough room to 4-track with the two new tracks required to be european gauge.

Since then the follow up meetings on Northern Hub specification and development have recognised the need for the interim lengthened Piccadilly bays for HS2 phase 1 services without touching on phase 2 station location.

To me Mayfield is too small, people are producing concepts that they could squeeze in two bays (when the other HS2 stations will have many more platforms) or it could be a through station if it has a massive kink in the platforms but I believe any station would be on a larger site probably requiring some demolition if not partially or completley underground (in a similar vein to Birmingham Moor Street).

 

[Nym]

I'm not sudgesting ONLY mayfeild, but everything bound by the Picc Approaches, McDonald Hotel and A635 & A635(M)

This area...
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=208537899835423960920.0004a1d32b13071fbdc1d

 

[deltic]

Where in the approved northern hub proposals is this? I have read the propsal cover to cover.

You can infer the service pattern from pages 85-86 of

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/documents/Projects/The Northern Hub/6485_Manchester Hub Rail Study.pdf

Not clear what the benefit of a HS2 station at Manchester Airport is. Is anyone from London or Birmingham going to trek to a city centre station to get on a train to Manchester airport to fly to effectively a holiday destination which constitutes the vast majority of the airport's destinations. While the airport has grand plans for an airport city this is at risk of attracting businesses that otherwise would have located in central Manchester.

 

[WatcherZero]

It has a lot of Middle eastern and Asian routes too and a fair few US routes, The idea however is that while it may get some people from Birmingham or even London coming to use it for the odd flight its a conveniant location for a parkway on the Motorway ring road and with lots of parking space.

 

[Nym]

Big car park space, big motorway connection, largest airport outside of London, 19 domestic flights per day to heathrow to be replaced, local transport interchange, need any more reasons for stopping it at manc airport?

Also, from Manchester the likes of some major legacy and international airlines have flights...

American Airlines: Daily to JFK and O'Hare
Delta Airlines: Daily to JFK and Atlanta
Continental Airlines: Twice Daily to Newark
Pakistan International Airlines: 10 weekly to Islamabad and Lahore (this is more than Heathrow)
Emirates: Twice daily to Dubai
Virgin Atlantic: 10 weekly to Orlando
Ethiad Airlines: 6 weekly to Abu Dhabi
Quatar Airways: Daily to Doha
US Airways: Daily to Philadelphia with charters to Charlotte
Singapore Airlines: Daily to Singapore

Not to mention the reigonal arm on every airline in europe.

And if a link to Heathrow is gained, MAN could end up being used as a 'domestic hub' for Heathrow, the same for Birmingham International, becoming an annexe of Heathrow if it had direct, airside codeshared trains between BHX and LHR, this would be much easyer to implement at MAN due to the terminal layout and space available for the HS2 station as indicated on the map, a moving walkway, airside, from T1 via T2 could be provided, in conjunction with the expansion of T2 at Manchester to include 4 VLA stands it would be very useful indeed.

On numerous occations I have known of passengers from London travel to Manchester with the current transport situation because either flights are cheaper, or more convenient than LHR or LGW. And with space at both of these at a premium, and a 1hr direct link to Euston or LHR on the cards, with intergrated ticketing though airline alliances, the prospect of using Manchester as an international gateway in place of LHR is becoming more and more favourable, especially with all the space available for expansion at Manchester, and the space to add 'premier intergtated terminals' where theoretically you could travel without seeing one standard class passenger in business or 1st class.

Need I post any more reasons for having a station intergrated fully into Manchester Airport?

PS: The northern hub report only mentions the impact of the two options developed on future routing of HS2, it does nothing to sudgest where it will be routed at all.

 

[boing_uk]

My question in all this would be: does Manchester HS2 require through services?

A stop at Manchester for any through services is going to entail some serious slow speed running to get in to the centre, which is going to negatively impact any further journey.

Any through services should really just bypass Manchester centre and any Manchester service should just terminate there negating reversal etc.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is an option for through platforms ar Piccadilly, but it would either be easyer to loop back out again via Manc Intl. If through platforms where needed and throught of from Minute 1, then the station would be needed to be built one floor above the current piccadilly then proceed down a new viaduct to the Central Campus and out of the city either through the Crecent and on the M601 alignment or on the M602 alignment, either of these wouldn't be that quick because of having to cross Manchester CC

Did Manchester Mayfield ever feature in this debate as it is already at the required high level height for track level. The 400m length platforms would be not a problem and there could be 4 through platforms with a link bridge over to the existing paths on the viaduct to Oxford Road station. Any customs facilities would be situated at ground floor level.

 

[Nym]

Yes, but my idea for that would mean new dedicated tracks across manchester.

But Manchester should be a terminus station, it's too expensive to have two CC penitrations, let alone penitrate though Manchester CC

 

[DiscoSteve]

COPIED FROM OTHER THREAD:

Mayfield is the obvious place (if the western leg of HS2 terminates in Manchester)

Here's my latest thoughts on the route through South Manchester.
Starting from a New Mayfield on the South Side of WCML, take over the two south side lines on the six track viaduct down past the Longsight Depot before running onto the Styal Line - by singling the existing suburban service its not a huge undertaking to squeeze HS2 lines alongside it on the embankment between Slade Lane and the River Mersey - about a dozen bridges to widen, and there is about green space alongside 50% of this embankment on one side or other - with minor demolition or vertical retaining walls elsewhere. It gets a bit harder south of the river so some demolition required to get through Gatley and Heald Green but then build the HS2 Airport Station right on (or over) the airport triangle junction - use one side of the existing dual line (as a mini metrolink maybe) as the link down to the Airport Station. South of the triangle HS2 would diverge due South at the curve at Styal, dodging between Quarry Bank Mill and Styal before ploughing on south towards Lichfield (don't care after that there's plenty of space in Cheshire and Staffordshire)

 

[dggar]

It's about 10 miles from Manchester Airport to the city centre.
Given an ideal alignement what would be the top speed attainable from a standing start at the airport HS station to Piccadilly/Mayfield, and how many miles could this be sustained for?

 

[DiscoSteve]

COPIED FROM OTHER THREAD:

Mayfield is the obvious place (if the western leg of HS2 terminates in Manchester)

Here's my latest thoughts on the route through South Manchester.
Starting from a New Mayfield on the South Side of WCML, take over the two south side lines on the six track viaduct down past the Longsight Depot before running onto the Styal Line - by singling the existing suburban service its not a huge undertaking to squeeze HS2 lines alongside it on the embankment between Slade Lane and the River Mersey - about a dozen bridges to widen, and there is about green space alongside 50% of this embankment on one side or other - with minor demolition or vertical retaining walls elsewhere. It gets a bit harder south of the river so some demolition required to get through Gatley and Heald Green but then build the HS2 Airport Station right on (or over) the airport triangle junction - use one side of the existing dual line (as a mini metrolink maybe) as the link down to the Airport Station. South of the triangle HS2 would diverge due South at the curve at Styal, dodging between Quarry Bank Mill and Styal before ploughing on south towards Lichfield (don't care after that there's plenty of space in Cheshire and Staffordshire)

Schematics and Birds Eye View of Slade Lane to River Mersey
http://photobucket.com/HS2Manchester
Red = demolition Blue = New Embankment Edge

 

[Invincibles]

I was thinking about this the other day as I travelled in from the airport.

The logical place for the airport station is to the south west of the runways, which would need a tunnel for passengers to cross to the terminals but would involve a lot less messing about.

You could try to squeeze something in at the bottom of the runway facing Manchester but I think that would force all trains into the city centre, which is not a good plan.

I am not convinced that trains from Manchester need to serve Manchester Airport, the classic lines can be left to do that.

Would it be completely wrong to close the local stations on the airport line and simply upgrade it? For me that would cope with 100mph running which would surely be enough approaching a major city centre terminus. If we can not close it then staggered stopping of services could be used so a block of trains each serves one station and stops are made at the same time.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

OK, this is currently a work in progress, but it only has 1mi of tunnel and 6mi where it would affect the running of current lines, (shed load of work on the styal loop)

Is currently a work in progress, any ideas on where to go from here?

I've been thinking of how to get it into the Exchange campus, all I can come up with is approaching through Altringham allongside the metrolink.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=208537899835423960920.0004a1c27811f91894a8b

ALTRINCHAM...not Altringham. All the well-heeled commuters will be after your blood!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

COPIED FROM OTHER THREAD:

Mayfield is the obvious place (if the western leg of HS2 terminates in Manchester)

Here's my latest thoughts on the route through South Manchester.
Starting from a New Mayfield on the South Side of WCML, take over the two south side lines on the six track viaduct down past the Longsight Depot before running onto the Styal Line - by singling the existing suburban service its not a huge undertaking to squeeze HS2 lines alongside it on the embankment between Slade Lane and the River Mersey - about a dozen bridges to widen, and there is about green space alongside 50% of this embankment on one side or other - with minor demolition or vertical retaining walls elsewhere. It gets a bit harder south of the river so some demolition required to get through Gatley and Heald Green but then build the HS2 Airport Station right on (or over) the airport triangle junction - use one side of the existing dual line (as a mini metrolink maybe) as the link down to the Airport Station. South of the triangle HS2 would diverge due South at the curve at Styal, dodging between Quarry Bank Mill and Styal before ploughing on south towards Lichfield (don't care after that there's plenty of space in Cheshire and Staffordshire)

Be very, very careful that your proposed line does not go inbetween the existing Styal station area and the existing rail paths and the National Trust property and land at Quarry Bank Mill for two reasons:-
(1) Styal women's prison.
(2) There is protected land status in the National Trust boundaries.

I live on the boundary of this area and I feel that I know the local environs a little better than you. There is also the matter of the local W.I....take this group of formidable Cheshire amazons at your peril!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was thinking about this the other day as I travelled in from the airport.

The logical place for the airport station is to the south west of the runways, which would need a tunnel for passengers to cross to the terminals but would involve a lot less messing about.

You could try to squeeze something in at the bottom of the runway facing Manchester but I think that would force all trains into the city centre, which is not a good plan.

I am not convinced that trains from Manchester need to serve Manchester Airport, the classic lines can be left to do that.

Would it be completely wrong to close the local stations on the airport line and simply upgrade it? For me that would cope with 100mph running which would surely be enough approaching a major city centre terminus. If we can not close it then staggered stopping of services could be used so a block of trains each serves one station and stops are made at the same time.

Have you ever considered that the Styal line carries a very high passenger travel density from the South Manchester A34 region into Manchester as part of the travel-to-work, university campus, shopping and leisure area and that there are many services that stop on this line to stations to other areas as part of the strategic transportation remit. Take away the current frequency of these services. as you suggest, and what method of transportation do you suggest replaces them as the A34 to and from Manchester has an extremely high road traffic volume.

Also, what do you propose is done with the existing rail services from Manchester Airport to Newcastle, Middlesbrough. Cleethorpes, Glasgow, Edinburgh, Windermere, Blackpool, Liverpool and Southport, notwithstanding that ATW want to extend some of their Llandudno to Manchester services into Manchester Airport.
If local councillors had to argue your point, what do you think would be the outcome!!

 

[Invincibles]

I do not expect the local councillors would fare very well in those wards that would no longer be connected by train. Remember each station still has the same frequency of service to the main destinations (Airport and Piccadilly).

If indeed it is combined with a Thameslink coring of the Deansgate Oxford Road 13/14 route to maximise capacity there then actually the citizens of the A34 corridor would benefit from regular trains to all Manchester stations and at least one further destination (one would get Blackpool, one Newcastle, one Wales, one Liverpool and one Southport) based on the stops now being made by the longer distance services but 1 stop only per train.

The connections between each station can be served by bus and the new metrolink from East Didsbury will offer good alternatives as well.

Anyway, it is just a thought, not something I would see as hugely realistic.

 

[boing_uk]

I know it may sound a little off the wall, but has anyone considered GMEX? Lets face it, conference facilities can be provided anywhere in almost any building, but a railway station has fairly specific needs, notwithstanding that enough of the right of way still exists to actually get the railway in to a central city location.

Would save an awful amount of disruption in the city centre and would give a shorter route in to the city from HS2 if going via Trafford toward Irlam.

 

[Nym]

I know it may sound a little off the wall, but has anyone considered GMEX? Lets face it, conference facilities can be provided anywhere in almost any building, but a railway station has fairly specific needs, notwithstanding that enough of the right of way still exists to actually get the railway in to a central city location.

Would save an awful amount of disruption in the city centre and would give a shorter route in to the city from HS2 if going via Trafford toward Irlam.

Re-opening for non-HS2 services to terminate there from Altham and the CLC lines, aswell as other routes to be potentially re-opened in south Manchester yes.

For HS2, too small, and after measuring, so it Manchester Exchange, without building ontop of the lines into victoria.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Re-opening for non-HS2 services to terminate there from Altham and the CLC lines, aswell as other routes to be potentially re-opened in south Manchester yes.

For HS2, too small, and after measuring, so it Manchester Exchange, without building ontop of the lines into victoria.

Is that the ALTHAM near Burnley....or has your punctuation genie decided to have a day off to watch the Royal Wedding?

Let me know your EXACT route that reaches Manchester Exchange. My route ended at Mayfield. But we both agreed the useage of redundant railway station infrastructure that could be rebuilt as necessary in the Manchester area.....discounting Oldham Road station, as someone built a Chinese wholesale supermarket and a Royal Mail depot on the site then compounded it by demolishing the New Allen Street viaduct.

 

[Nym]

Look at the map overlay I have put on google, with the link in this thread and you'll find it there.

And I don't have an exact route, because I don't have 2 hours to sit with an OS map and do proper land take calculations. I have posted some rough alignments where there is plenty of spare land.

If the route via Sale Water Park is to be used, then it would need reserving now, as the Metrolink is going to use the same alignment to the south of Alt'ham.

And to clarify:
Re-opening Central for CLC and Alt'ham services.
Exchange campus is slightly too small unless it's atop a box from Deal St Jcn

The route via the Alt'ham met lines (that should be returned to heavy rail anyway) would only be able to serve the Exchange or Central areas; for Mayfeild it would need to be approaching via Longsight.

PS: What royal wedding? I ceased giving a damn when the queen ceased to employ me.

 

[bangor-toad]

Hi there,
I think that the proposals to have the terminus at Picadilly / Mayfield do require some great effort and engineering to bring in a HS line.

Here's a widely different alternative for you all:

HS2 comes up from the south between Knustford & Wilmslow.
It tunnels under the runways and there is a station built next to the M56 junction 5 (where the open air car parks are).
It heads north west towards Altrincham in the non-built up areas then tunnels under the residential areas (Broadheath).
The route joins the trackbed of the Altrincham to Glazebrook route and cross the Manchester ship canal.

The route crosses the Manchester / Liverpool line between Irlam and Glazebrook stations.

Just north of this spot is where you could have a triangle junction, keep heading north for Scotland or turn to the east for Manchester.

The Manchester branch would curve around to the North of the M62 and meet up with the existing line near Junction 12 of the M62.

This existing line would need to be quadrupled for a short stretch to Patricroft station. There's room to do this just without residential demolition.

After Patricroft the HS line would take over the route parallel to the M602 into Salford.

The existing line could be diverted after Patricroft onto the disused allignment through Elesmere Park and Swinton Park with a new short(ish) tunnel to connect back to the Swinton - Salford Crescent line.

The HS line would then terminate just to the west of the inner ring road. This would require the demolition of part of the Regent retail park but this is much simpler than residential, commercial or industrial.
It might be possible to stick a new "normal" station on the same complex opening up a fair number of links.



I think this route is a little longer than a route to Picadilly but the curves can be smoother and it avoids significant engineering in residential areas...
Any comments?
Jason