Dewsbury to Stoke-on-Trent options

[Crossover]

I am looking for the best value option for getting from Dewsbury to Stoke and return, within the day, on Saturday.

I have a YP railcard

The through off peak return is £25.70 (from memory) - costly as it is a period return as well

The best I have at present is
Dewsbury - Manchester Stations Off Peak Day Return - £9.45
Manchester Stations - Blythe Bridge - £8.80
Total: £18.25

I am fairly tied to train times, which I suspect won't help the case, and I cannot do VT only for the Manchester to Stoke portion as the return part will involve XC.

Thanks

 

[soil]

Try Chapeltown - Blythe Bridge, £7.15 CDR

Routeing Points for Chapeltown are Barnsley, Meadowhall
Routeing Points for Blythe Bridge are Stoke On Trent, Derby Group

Using Barnsley - Stoke, the maps are TP+MH

Barnsley - Wakefield - Leeds - Huddersfield - Stalybridge - Manchester - Stockport (on map TP)
Stockport - Stoke-On-Trent (on map MH)

The full notional route is therefore
Chapeltown - Leeds - Dewsbury - Manchester - Stoke - Blythe Bridge

You start short at Dewsbury, finish short at Stoke.

We need to perform a fares check, to confirm that Barnsley and Stoke are valid routeing points.

Here are all the available walk-up single fares:

Chapeltown - Blythe Bridge
£30.50 SOS
£25.30 SVS
£10.70 CDS

Chapeltown - Stoke On Trent
£25.20 SDS

Barnsley - Blythe Bridge
£25 SDS

As you can see there are no fares in common, and therefore we should compare SOS with SDS. The fares are cheaper for the respective routeing points, and therefore both routeing points are valid and the ticket is valid for the complete journey.

 

[Starmill]

That seems just a tad far fetched! Can't see it being a problem on the XC from Manchester... but getting on at Dewsbury there with the ticket from Chapeltown?
I'm open to the idea that it's technically valid though...
Can anyone find an itinerary? I can't..

 

[soil]

No, I couldn't get NRE to give me any other itinerary than via Derby. It doesn't even allow via Chinley.

I suspect NRE (from this and other examples) is operating its own set of arbitrary rules different again from the recently published set.

It should be permitted by the rules, there's no grey area here.

 

[Starmill]

I'm as convinced of the validity of this as my (low) level of expertise will permit.

However I'm very hesitant to take it any further with nothing to fall back on. Very useful indeed for all sorts of journeys if it could be used. Likely it will attract some dispute on a longish journey like this, and I'd happily argue the case on a valid ticket, but how to defend oneself in the event of an irate demand for a new ticket?

Looks like Barnsley only passes cos of the (usually, annoying!) lack of an Anytime Day in the first case. Or the even more annoying lack of Off-Peak singles in the latter two!

 

[TB]

Fastis shows Chapeltown to Blythe Bridge via Barnsley as 'Illegal Routing' so it would not be valid.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Fastis shows Chapeltown to Blythe Bridge via Barnsley as 'Illegal Routing' so it would not be valid.

I agree. I travelled from Chapeltown to Stoke last week, splitting the fare at Blythe Bridge but my understanding is the route is only valid via Sheffield and Derby.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Try Chapeltown - Blythe Bridge, £7.15 CDR

Routeing Points for Chapeltown are Barnsley, Meadowhall
Routeing Points for Blythe Bridge are Stoke On Trent, Derby Group

Using Barnsley - Stoke, the maps are TP+MH

Barnsley - Wakefield - Leeds - Huddersfield - Stalybridge - Manchester - Stockport (on map TP)
Stockport - Stoke-On-Trent (on map MH)

The full notional route is therefore
Chapeltown - Leeds - Dewsbury - Manchester - Stoke - Blythe Bridge

You start short at Dewsbury, finish short at Stoke.

We need to perform a fares check, to confirm that Barnsley and Stoke are valid routeing points.

Here are all the available walk-up single fares:

Chapeltown - Blythe Bridge
£30.50 SOS
£25.30 SVS
£10.70 CDS

Chapeltown - Stoke On Trent
£25.20 SDS

Barnsley - Blythe Bridge
£25 SDS

As you can see there are no fares in common, and therefore we should compare SOS with SDS. The fares are cheaper for the respective routeing points, and therefore both routeing points are valid and the ticket is valid for the complete journey.

No, I couldn't get NRE to give me any other itinerary than via Derby. It doesn't even allow via Chinley.

I suspect NRE (from this and other examples) is operating its own set of arbitrary rules different again from the recently published set.

It should be permitted by the rules, there's no grey area here.

Fastis shows Chapeltown to Blythe Bridge via Barnsley as 'Illegal Routing' so it would not be valid.

Don't forget that the fares check is calculated using 1996 (I think?) fares, thus it is quite conceivable that the fare structure in 1996 was such that going via Barnsley was not permitted then, even though it might be shown as permitted now.

As an aside the NRES Routeing Guide Maps (currently only in testing) only show via Sheffield as valid.

 

[soil]

Don't forget that the fares check is calculated using 1996 (I think?) fares, thus it is quite conceivable that the fare structure in 1996 was such that going via Barnsley was not permitted then, even though it might be shown as permitted now.

Cool, I will look-up the 1996 fares. Oh wait, no, ATOC refuse to publish them.

I don't think any reference to NFM64 is made in the routeing guide.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Cool, I will look-up the 1996 fares. Oh wait, no, ATOC refuse to publish them.

I don't think any reference to NFM64 is made in the routeing guide.

Members of this forum seem quite happy with these older fares being used when it suits them!

 

[soil]

Members of this forum seem quite happy with these older fares being used when it suits them!

'Members of this forum' have their own individual opinions, which are by no means consistent.

 

[Starmill]

I have no idea where this reference to fares in 1996 comes from. If there is no instruction that these should be used, and no way to access them, how do 'members of this forum' use them legitimately?

 

[John @ home]

I have no idea where this reference to fares in 1996 comes from.

It seems that, in order to prevent Permitted Routes changing as one fare overtakes another one, some calculations made by electronic versions of the Routeing Guide are (or have been) made using the fares in National Fares Manual NFM 64, which was current from September 1996 to January 1997.

If there is no instruction that these should be used

I am not aware of any such instruction. The fact that NFM 64 is (or has been) used has become known due to observations by members of this forum, not by any instruction.

[If there is] no way to access them

A member of the public may consult a copy of National Fares Manual NFM 64 in the libraries of the National Railway Museum and the Office of the Rail Regulator (and perhaps one or two similar places).

 

[yorkie]

Members of this forum seem quite happy with these older fares being used when it suits them!

If a route was valid in 1996 (e.g. Southport - Manchester via Liverpool), then the route has "protected" status. So I am happy to use them when it suits, as if the TOCs were to say otherwise, they would be in breach of the terms of their franchise, which is a matter that could be reported to the DfT

Our Fares Guide mentions this:

....Although no mention is made in the Routeing Guide that a particular version of the fares database should be used, booking engines carry out this fares check based on the data in a version of the fares database released in September 1996 (NFM64), and therefore any route permitted at that time is considered to have 'protected route status', as confirmed by ATOC in correspondence regarding a journey from Southport to Manchester, for which Liverpool remains an appropriate RP for Southport due to the fares check being satisfied at that time....

​

We still have a copy of the correspondence from ATOC confirming the protected status of the above route, as well as other correspondence from ATOC saying the same thing generally, and the Guide has been proof-read by senior people at ATOC, so I am satisfied that is the case.

If anyone is aware of any TOC attempting to dis-allow a route that was valid in 1996, then I'm more than happy to do some proof reading for letters to be sent to the appropriate bodies, to ensure the matter is fully investigated and rectified