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DfT and TOCs to trial radical fares overhaul

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Failed Unit

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The other big winners of the change in price of singles which the railway will lose out on are people needing to travel overnight. Many journeys I take only offer a day return so stay overnight and I am stuck with the 2x singles. (Or buy a ticket to the next station that offers a "period return" and break the journey - with no intention of completing it)
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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I thought GWR already tried the half-return idea for off-peak singles?
They started at 50% for a single but later put them up to 60%.
They should already know if it works for them.

VTWC also has its half-saver option online, if you book a fare in the other direction at the same time.
That is at least some degree of flexibility, as you can match a half-saver single with an Advance the other way.
 

Paul Kelly

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I can't see where it says they are going to reduce the price of single tickets. I am probably far too cynical, but this:
A third pilot will revise archaic regulations which mean single journeys can cost virtually the same as return trips.
suggests to me they rather want to remove fares regulation so they can increase the price of return tickets.
 

Bletchleyite

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I can't see where it says they are going to reduce the price of single tickets. I am probably far too cynical, but this:

suggests to me they rather want to remove fares regulation so they can increase the price of return tickets.

Reducing the price of singles on a revenue neutral basis would indeed require lifting of some elements of fares regulation - to make it revenue neutral you would need to "meet in the middle" of reducing the single and increasing the return. As most journeys are returns the increase would be small, but for it to be revenue neutral there will have to *be* an increase.

Personally I would like to see regulation moved to some kind of fares basket, possibly even including some Advances (though that would be difficult to quantify so probably not feasible) - but certainly including Anytime tickets in order to stop the procession of idiotically high fares like London to Manchester.
 
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All Line Rover

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If it would be revenue neutral to, for example, increase the price of a Manchester to London SVR (off-peak return) from £76.30 to £84, while decreasing the price of an SVS (off-peak single) from £75.30 to £42, I can't see why we could or should object to that. Some people do buy SVS fares, or Advance singles on off-peak services at prices very close to the SVS fares, and so the SVR fares will have to be increased slightly if the SVS fares are to be reduced. As long as the change is revenue neutral, so that no additional profit is being made, it would be a genuinely beneficial simplification.
 

Starmill

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Of course we should object to that. Why would I want an increase in a fare I buy (Manchester to London SVR) to help fund a decrease in a fare I don't (Manchester to London SVS)? Who really needs the SVS? According to the above it is off-peak leisure travellers - i.e the people who already buy an Advance. Oh, but I hear, what if people don't know in Advance? Well soon they can buy an Advance ticket 10 minutes before departure.

Why are people eager to increase the prices of tickets people buy in order to decrease the price of a handful of tickets people don't? As for attracting car users, to someone with a new efficient car its unlikely those fares would be competitive.
 

yorksrob

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Of course we should object to that. Why would I want an increase in a fare I buy (Manchester to London SVR) to help fund a decrease in a fare I don't (Manchester to London SVS)? Who really needs the SVS? According to the above it is off-peak leisure travellers - i.e the people who already buy an Advance. Oh, but I hear, what if people don't know in Advance? Well soon they can buy an Advance ticket 10 minutes before departure.

Why are people eager to increase the prices of tickets people buy in order to decrease the price of a handful of tickets people don't? As for attracting car users, to someone with a new efficient car its unlikely those fares would be competitive.

I fear there is a lot of truth in this. There is no guarantee that the replacement single fares will be the equivalent to half the cost of the existing return for most passengers. Such a major re-thinking of fares needs to be overseen by a body independent of the TOC's and the DfT who are already collaborators in terms of extracting fares to the detriment of passengers.
 

Bletchleyite

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Why are people eager to increase the prices of tickets people buy in order to decrease the price of a handful of tickets people don't?

People do buy them. But they actively put people off making single journeys, and heavily complicate things otherwise, e.g. meaning you have to prat about with excesses to do a journey out one way or back another, or a three-point journey. With single-fare pricing there is no need for any of that - if you want to do two routes or return after more than a month, buy a single one way and a single the other. If you want to do a three-point journey, no penalty.

It is much, much fairer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I fear there is a lot of truth in this. There is no guarantee that the replacement single fares will be the equivalent to half the cost of the existing return for most passengers. Such a major re-thinking of fares needs to be overseen by a body independent of the TOC's and the DfT who are already collaborators in terms of extracting fares to the detriment of passengers.

It's a trial. There is no guarantee the TOCs will be allowed to actually implement any of it more widely.

Let them at least give it a go.
 

yorksrob

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It's a trial. There is no guarantee the TOCs will be allowed to actually implement any of it more widely.

Let them at least give it a go.

Fair point. Let us see what we shall see.

At any rate, the evaluation, along with the decision to implement more widely, or not, should be independently adjudicated.
 

Clip

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People do buy them. But they actively put people off making single journeys, and heavily complicate things otherwise, e.g. meaning you have to prat about with excesses to do a journey out one way or back another, or a three-point journey. With single-fare pricing there is no need for any of that - if you want to do two routes or return after more than a month, buy a single one way and a single the other. If you want to do a three-point journey, no penalty.

It is much, much fairer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It's a trial. There is no guarantee the TOCs will be allowed to actually implement any of it more widely.

Let them at least give it a go.

Neil you must come work for the railway. You simplistic view of everything would really work for us and you can ensure we move over to everything the Germans do too.

Then once you discover that change is hard both from the top and at the bottom due to the nature of our passengers and those we don't convey then you may change your tune somewhat. However it's always fascinating to read your posts about making things easier and fairer. And seat pitch and cushioning of course ;)
 

All Line Rover

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Of course we should object to that. Why would I want an increase in a fare I buy (Manchester to London SVR) to help fund a decrease in a fare I don't (Manchester to London SVS)? Who really needs the SVS? According to the above it is off-peak leisure travellers - i.e the people who already buy an Advance. Oh, but I hear, what if people don't know in Advance? Well soon they can buy an Advance ticket 10 minutes before departure.

Why are people eager to increase the prices of tickets people buy in order to decrease the price of a handful of tickets people don't? As for attracting car users, to someone with a new efficient car its unlikely those fares would be competitive.

I did stress that I was talking about a revenue neutral change. If it is genuinely the case that only a small minority of passengers buy SVS tickets and Advance tickets costing almost as much (which I don't happen to agree with), the increase in price of the SVR ticket would, if revenue neutral, be negligible. If, on the other hand, the SVR would increase by e.g. 10%, on a revenue neutral change, why should passengers making single journeys be penalised compared to passengers making return journeys?

Buying an Advance ticket 10 minutes in advance, or even days or weeks in advance, is no "benefit" when making a single journey if the Advance fare only costs around £1 less than the SVS fare. All Manchester to London trains next Friday between 14:36 and 19:14, for example, have Advance fares costing £82 (standard class), when the SVS is £82.90. If the SVS was £42, the Advance fares would also reduce in price (or be withdrawn altogether on busy services).
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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Of course we should object to that. Why would I want an increase in a fare I buy (Manchester to London SVR) to help fund a decrease in a fare I don't (Manchester to London SVS)? Who really needs the SVS? According to the above it is off-peak leisure travellers - i.e the people who already buy an Advance. Oh, but I hear, what if people don't know in Advance? Well soon they can buy an Advance ticket 10 minutes before departure.

Why are people eager to increase the prices of tickets people buy in order to decrease the price of a handful of tickets people don't? As for attracting car users, to someone with a new efficient car its unlikely those fares would be competitive.

I think there is quite a demand for triangular journeys which are currently penalised by the high off-peak single fare.
eg Manchester-London-Leeds-Manchester, or Manchester-Bristol-London-Manchester.
Many business journeys are of this multiple leg type, spread over a couple of days.
 

miami

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I am sure East Coast is after 0930, on tickets they price.

This means that the 0930 Edinburgh - London Kings Cross service is off peak if you board at Edinburgh but peak if you connect into it. (so you end up splitting tickets)

As much as virgin (at least on the west coast) lie about 'peak trains', it's a load of rubbish. Restrictions on an offpeak ticket are printed on the ticket (by way of a 2 character code to the full restrictions)

An Off Peak return, outward bound, from Edinburgh to London, on the east coast, for £221.50 carries restriction 1E which says (amongst other things)

Not valid on trains timed to arrive:
London Terminals (except as shown below) after 04:29 and before 10:08;
London St Pancras International after 04:29 and before 10:05;
London Euston after 04:29 and before 10:05, except on Caledonian Sleeper services (with supplement);

Therefore it's valid on the 0930 to London Kings Cross, which arrives at 1349.

(If you wanted to get that service I'd advice buying the Super-Off-Peak, which is valid for arrivals into London 1117 onwards. Looks like the off peak return is valid on any Edinburgh departure aside from the 0540, the super-off-peak valid for departures from 0655 onwards.

Another example. You travel to London from Falkirk Grahamson at 0923 (peak) next stop Polmont 0930 (off-peak). Same train. I don't think this was how the after 0930 restriction was intended as a long distance traveller tax.

Falkirk to London off peak return is £221.50, it also comes with restriction code 1E

Falkirk to Glasgow to London via the WCML I would assume is a valid route. An Off Peak Return from Falkirk would be valid on the 0923. Indeed it would be valid on any train from Falkirk to Glasgow or Edinburgh, including the 0540 direct service to London Kings Cross, due to arrive 1050.
 
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MichaelAMW

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Buying an Advance ticket 10 minutes in advance, or even days or weeks in advance, is no "benefit" when making a single journey if the Advance fare only costs around £1 less than the SVS fare. All Manchester to London trains next Friday between 14:36 and 19:14, for example, have Advance fares costing £82 (standard class), when the SVS is £82.90. If the SVS was £42, the Advance fares would also reduce in price (or be withdrawn altogether on busy services).

And woe betide the person who rushes into the station to see their train leaving and has to pay £82.90 as a result, whereas for 90 pence in the first place they would have been "insured" against such a possibility.
 

Failed Unit

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As much as virgin (at least on the west coast) lie about 'peak trains', it's a load of rubbish. Restrictions on an offpeak ticket are printed on the ticket (by way of a 2 character code to the full restrictions)

An Off Peak return, outward bound, from Edinburgh to London, on the east coast, for £221.50 carries restriction 1E which says (amongst other things)



Therefore it's valid on the 0930 to London Kings Cross, which arrives at 1349.

(If you wanted to get that service I'd advice buying the Super-Off-Peak, which is valid for arrivals into London 1117 onwards. Looks like the off peak return is valid on any Edinburgh departure aside from the 0540, the super-off-peak valid for departures from 0655 onwards.



Falkirk to London off peak return is £221.50, it also comes with restriction code 1E

Falkirk to Glasgow to London via the WCML I would assume is a valid route. An Off Peak Return from Falkirk would be valid on the 0923. Indeed it would be valid on any train from Falkirk to Glasgow or Edinburgh, including the 0540 direct service to London Kings Cross, due to arrive 1050.

Looked this up again as I was sure I was stung and needed a split.

It is the "off-peak" and "anytime" with the 0930 from starting point issue on the booking engine. Just looked up Falkirk Grahamson - Lincoln. Split at Edinburgh and use the 0930 you ok with off peak. Connect into it you need to split at Edinburgh or pay the anytime.

Apologies for not checking the example before posting but the 0930 from departure point exists on east coast and penalises long distance passengers.
 

miami

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If you live west of the West Midlands ie Shropshire and Mid Wales you have no choice but to pass through Birmingham in the peak even though your end destinations will not be arrived to outside it. Unfair to penalise when the passenger has no choice.

An offpeak return from Newtown (Powys) to Birmingham is valid on any train. It's more expensive than an anytime day return.

You have an appointment in Leicester at 1030 how do you travel there apart from via Birmingham?

Alas this route is on cross-country hence the 0930 restriction. Cross-country is an anomoly in the off peak ticketing world. That said an anytime is only about 60% more than the offpeak ticket (on other routes it's nearer 300%)

If it's a day meeting, From Newtown, I would take the 06:35 to Birmingham for £20 return, arriving 08:29, then the 08:52 from Birmingham to Leicester arriving 09:51, anytime day return £19.30. I don't know about that train, but an 08:52 departure from Birmingham feels like it certainly has the potential for being a 'peak' train.

Total price £39.30 return.

It's the Cross Country operator that's the anomoly, not the existing ticketing system. Newtown to Milton Keynes for example, £56.50 for an Off Peak Return, valid on any train (the 06:35 to Birmingham, then 08:50 to Rugby, then 09:32 to Milton Keynes)
 

thedbdiboy

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New here. And this is my fear!



Sounds like this is the industry's long held desire to neuter fares regulation which is getting the go ahead. Virgin Trains West Coast have in particular been quite vocal about how they percieve regulated fares as a millstone. (The problem with any such argument from VTWC is you wonder what they'd do without the restraining influence of fares regulation.)

Also, in terms of "irrational pricing" - what seems irrational in one context is rational in another. Plus I think there are always going to be anomalies when it comes to rail ticketing - though perhaps this is particularly apparent in a system where network wide ticketing exists (and it must continue to exist!), but where there are multiple train companies with differing priorities which set the ticket prices.

Just worried that the industry will take this opportunity to unleash themselves from any restraint.

I've got a bad feeling about this.........

I have a similar feeling, unfortunately.

You mean like simplification. Didn't make the fare structure more simple but was used by TOCs to put the prices up.

Let's be very clear. This will result in fare increases for the majority, loss of flexibility etc.

The DfT/TOCs cannot be trusted.

I can't see where it says they are going to reduce the price of single tickets. I am probably far too cynical, but this:

suggests to me they rather want to remove fares regulation so they can increase the price of return tickets.

I fear there is a lot of truth in this. There is no guarantee that the replacement single fares will be the equivalent to half the cost of the existing return for most passengers. Such a major re-thinking of fares needs to be overseen by a body independent of the TOC's and the DfT who are already collaborators in terms of extracting fares to the detriment of passengers.

Phew! Years and years of forum posts about how broken the fares structure is and when finally there is a possibility that a proper overhaul can start the cynics come out in force.

Please remember that virtually every issue with the current fares structure can be traced back to a hasty privatisation that simply baked the British Rail 1995 fares structure into a myriad of cross contractual regulation with no overall mechanism to let it evolve. Over 20 years on it is completely out of date, but successive governments have prevaricated over change because quite frankly they have had no idea how to manage it.

The 2008 'simplification' was the window dressing job everyone criticises because even back then the DfT and Ministers were too terrified of the complex unpicking required to oversee any meaningful update to the fares structure. This was under a Labour government; the Coalition kicked things into the long grass, and the only reason the current administration has finally acknowledged the need for reform is because the current structure is simply decaying under the advance of third party apps, split ticketing and failure to properly adapt to modern trends such as part time commuting. They are also realising that bankrolling smart ticketing systems is a complete waste of time if they continue to mandate the continued sale of the entire analogue ticketing structure designed for paper tickets.

The changes needed will have such a profound effect of the financial model of the industry that they have to be rolled out through the franchising process - but to do this properly some of the mechanisms need to be tested, hence the trials.

The project is not about simply removing regulation but instead allowing government to see how regulation might be amended to provide a more effective process. The current system absolutely bakes in fares anomalies.

Among the concepts being tested in the trials is one that actually acknowledges that rather than fighting split ticketing, the industry needs to look at pricing through tickets by means of the composite sections for long multi-segment journeys. Let's face it, the only people that ever look at the cost of, for example, a Plymouth to Fort William Anytime Return are journalists seeking to mock the industry fare structure - no-one actually buys such a ticket and yet Cross Country is required to maintain a walk up Any Permitted Anytime fare for this journey. Under the ideas being tested, you would still be able to pay one price for a ticket that would let you make this journey but it would be calculated much more intelligently than CrossCountry simply thinking of a very big number and doubling it.

Routeing is another area requiring serious reform. Until 1995 routes were regularly restructured to accommodate changes to service patterns and business needs yet since then it has barely changed - 28 July 1995 is 'date zero' where everything British Rail had done up to that point was considered sacrosanct and any change beyond that was viewed as an attack on the network - yet it takes no proper account of the many new timetabled routes and services that have rendered many such route structures in desperate need of updating.

Finally, the existence of regulated return fares with regulated restrictions has made it much harder to create simple mix-and-match self booking of out and back journeys ('single leg pricing'). Of course, because the Off-Peak (nee Saver) return is the regulated one to date no-one has dared touch it but the existing fare is not fit for purpose - often accompanied by pages of impenetrable restrictions that no TVM, online booking site (or, to be frank, even an old fashioned mark 1 booking clerk) can explain easily. Changing it does not mean removing regulation but instead means designing a new structure and an associated regulatory mechanism. The final say will belong to government and TOCs won't make any extra money - the only choice will be the balance as now between taxpayer and fare payer.

It's a big, complex job that will attract plenty of comment and criticism, but I am truly amazed if there is anyone left who thinks that what we have now is fine and should just be left alone.

BTW anyone who thinks that nationalisation is somehow an alternative is missing the point - as it stands the current system is already publicly specified and funded and exactly the same process and debate needs to happen whatever the ownership structure is.
 
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sheff1

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Very interesting post thedbidboy.

The cynicism did not surprise me, however, for 2 reasons:

* the 'simplification' exercise was anything but, despite the hype from ATOC.

* the frequency and speed with which a fare / routing which is beneficial to passengers is withdrawn once it has been mentioned on this forum.

I hope the trials do pave the way to a better system, though, as I can certainly agree with this:
I am truly amazed if there is anyone left who thinks that what we have now is fine and should just be left alone.
 

All Line Rover

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The notion that permitted routes are updated to "accommodate changes to service patterns and business needs" is not something I can completely agree with. Many changes to permitted routes are made to compartmentalise pricing between different train operators (and if this is what you mean by "business needs", I don't believe these "needs" to be in any way beneficial to passengers), one significant example being Newark to London no longer being valid via Nottingham on an Any Permitted ticket because of East Midlands Trains not being happy about East Coast pricing fares that might undercut its overpriced fares from Nottingham. The only reason EMT managed to get away with it is because Newark Castle (via Nottingham) and Newark North Gate (served by EC) are separate stations.

And while you might reply that Nottingham "deserves" higher fares than Newark because it is what the market can bear (even though Nottingham has an inferior - slower - train service to London than Newark), I don't believe a nationalised rail industry would, to take another example, price a Wolverhampton to Liverpool FOR at £73 (London Midland) while pricing a Wolverhampton to Manchester FOR at £166 (CrossCountry). And, as it happens, British Rail didn't, with an FOR to Manchester being cheaper than an FOR to Liverpool in 1996.
 

Hadders

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Very interesting post thedbidboy.

I agree. However the rail industry doesn't have a good record on these sort of issues, which is why we are right to be wary. Some examples being:

- 2008 fares 'simplification' was nothing of the sort.
- The recent NRCoT in many sections adds more ambiguity than the NRCoC it replaced.
- The way Cross Country's blanket 0930 restriction on Off-Peak tickets was implemented. Did no-one really think about long distance journeys that have become all but impossible.
- The haphazard roll out of smart ticketing in some cases restricting passenger choice without a corresponding price adjustment.
- TOCs retailing Advance fares at more than the cost of an Off-Peak single

Even the redesign of ticket layout, whilst a good idea in principle, still has issues with many ticketing issuing systems printing tickets in an awful manner. Then there's the replacement of Avantix Mobile with till roll paper tickets far longer than they need to be.

I don't doubt the intention and idea is sound. The issue is the execution.
 

yorksrob

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Phew! Years and years of forum posts about how broken the fares structure is and when finally there is a possibility that a proper overhaul can start the cynics come out in force.

Please remember that virtually every issue with the current fares structure can be traced back to a hasty privatisation that simply baked the British Rail 1995 fares structure into a myriad of cross contractual regulation with no overall mechanism to let it evolve. Over 20 years on it is completely out of date, but successive governments have prevaricated over change because quite frankly they have had no idea how to manage it.

The 2008 'simplification' was the window dressing job everyone criticises because even back then the DfT and Ministers were too terrified of the complex unpicking required to oversee any meaningful update to the fares structure. This was under a Labour government; the Coalition kicked things into the long grass, and the only reason the current administration has finally acknowledged the need for reform is because the current structure is simply decaying under the advance of third party apps, split ticketing and failure to properly adapt to modern trends such as part time commuting. They are also realising that bankrolling smart ticketing systems is a complete waste of time if they continue to mandate the continued sale of the entire analogue ticketing structure designed for paper tickets.

The changes needed will have such a profound effect of the financial model of the industry that they have to be rolled out through the franchising process - but to do this properly some of the mechanisms need to be tested, hence the trials.

The project is not about simply removing regulation but instead allowing government to see how regulation might be amended to provide a more effective process. The current system absolutely bakes in fares anomalies.

Among the concepts being tested in the trials is one that actually acknowledges that rather than fighting split ticketing, the industry needs to look at pricing through tickets by means of the composite sections for long multi-segment journeys. Let's face it, the only people that ever look at the cost of, for example, a Plymouth to Fort William Anytime Return are journalists seeking to mock the industry fare structure - no-one actually buys such a ticket and yet Cross Country is required to maintain a walk up Any Permitted Anytime fare for this journey. Under the ideas being tested, you would still be able to pay one price for a ticket that would let you make this journey but it would be calculated much more intelligently than CrossCountry simply thinking of a very big number and doubling it.

Routeing is another area requiring serious reform. Until 1995 routes were regularly restructured to accommodate changes to service patterns and business needs yet since then it has barely changed - 28 July 1995 is 'date zero' where everything British Rail had done up to that point was considered sacrosanct and any change beyond that was viewed as an attack on the network - yet it takes no proper account of the many new timetabled routes and services that have rendered many such route structures in desperate need of updating.

Finally, the existence of regulated return fares with regulated restrictions has made it much harder to create simple mix-and-match self booking of out and back journeys ('single leg pricing'). Of course, because the Off-Peak (nee Saver) return is the regulated one to date no-one has dared touch it but the existing fare is not fit for purpose - often accompanied by pages of impenetrable restrictions that no TVM, online booking site (or, to be frank, even an old fashioned mark 1 booking clerk) can explain easily. Changing it does not mean removing regulation but instead means designing a new structure and an associated regulatory mechanism. The final say will belong to government and TOCs won't make any extra money - the only choice will be the balance as now between taxpayer and fare payer.

It's a big, complex job that will attract plenty of comment and criticism, but I am truly amazed if there is anyone left who thinks that what we have now is fine and should just be left alone.

BTW anyone who thinks that nationalisation is somehow an alternative is missing the point - as it stands the current system is already publicly specified and funded and exactly the same process and debate needs to happen whatever the ownership structure is.

Just because we think the current fares structure is flawed, doesn't mean that we trust the DoT and TOC's to reform it. It's naive of you to assume otherwise. we can quote BR as much as we want, but the question is how much we trust the privatised railway to control fares. Sweep away regulation, do we expect fares to become better for passengers across the board ? I suspect no.

One can say that TOCs won't make any more money, but how do you assume that ? They've looking to increase profit obviously, otherwise they wouldn't be there.
 
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ashworth

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The current fares system, as we all know, is far too complicated, but I do worry that some methods to simplify it may reduce the price of some of these little used long distance fares, but then greatly increase Off Peak Return fares on medium distance journeys.

Just as an example to use one fare for a journey that I do a few times each year to visit relatives. The journey is from Hucknall in Nottinghamshire to Poulton Le Fylde in Lancashire. This is one of those journeys where the Anytime Single fare at £64.40 is currently almost the same as the Off Peak Return at £65.80. The Anytime Return fare for this journey is £84 so if the Anytime Single was reduced to 50% it would take it down to £42. Hopefully, the Off Peak Return would remain at the current price level for that type of medium distance journey, but I do wonder. The money lost from reducing the current totally unfairly priced Single may need to be raised by increasing the price of return fares.

The last attempt at simplifying fares did not really work. I seem to remember that we were all to be encouraged to use cheaper Advance Fares which were to be made available for joirneys over 50 miles. However, for journeys like Hucknall to Poulton Le Fylde, using secondary cross country routes, involving connections using a number of different TOCs these advance fares are often not available. The only time you can get not overly cheap Advance fares from Hucknall to Poulton is Off Peak in winter changing at Nottingham, Derby, Crewe and Preston! No advance fares are ever available on the more direct and faster route changing just at Nottingham and Manchester.

Incidentally, I never pay the full price as I know a way of getting it down to approx £15 each way by splitting and using a combination of Advance and Anytime Singles. However, that is complicated and you need to know how to manipulate the online booking systems to reveal these fares and travel on slower stopping services.
 

thedbdiboy

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Just because we think the current fares structure is flawed, doesn't mean that we trust the DoT and TOC's to reform it. It's naive of you to assume otherwise. we can quote BR as much as we want, but the question is how much we trust the privatised railway to control fares. Sweep away regulation, do we expect fares to become better for passengers across the board ? I suspect no.

One can say that TOCs won't make any more money, but how do you assume that ? They've looking to increase profit obviously, otherwise they wouldn't be there.

It's not so much that I expect anyone to trust the TOCs and DfT (and I've had enough experience of both to be as cautious as anyone) - but seriously, where else will it happen? I worked for British Rail and they were far more free to make decisions that many people didn't like - they just went and did it whereas now these processes are contractualised and regulated.

TOCs will participate in the trials but won't be making any decisions as to what is allowed to change - they can make proposals and business cases but anything that changes must be approved by DfT.

TOCs are in business to return a profit on operating a contract but it is a very high turnover low margin business - it really is a very boring business designed to appease the kind of shareholders who run pension funds etc and want steady predictable returns. The pressure from them for reform is to try and ensure a sustainable business going forward.
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The current fares system, as we all know, is far too complicated, but I do worry that some methods to simplify it may reduce the price of some of these little used long distance fares, but then greatly increase Off Peak Return fares on medium distance journeys.

Just as an example to use one fare for a journey that I do a few times each year to visit relatives. The journey is from Hucknall in Nottinghamshire to Poulton Le Fylde in Lancashire. This is one of those journeys where the Anytime Single fare at £64.40 is currently almost the same as the Off Peak Return at £65.80. The Anytime Return fare for this journey is £84 so if the Anytime Single was reduced to 50% it would take it down to £42. Hopefully, the Off Peak Return would remain at the current price level for that type of medium distance journey, but I do wonder. The money lost from reducing the current totally unfairly priced Single may need to be raised by increasing the price of return fares.

The last attempt at simplifying fares did not really work. I seem to remember that we were all to be encouraged to use cheaper Advance Fares which were to be made available for joirneys over 50 miles. However, for journeys like Hucknall to Poulton Le Fylde, using secondary cross country routes, involving connections using a number of different TOCs these advance fares are often not available. The only time you can get not overly cheap Advance fares from Hucknall to Poulton is Off Peak in winter changing at Nottingham, Derby, Crewe and Preston! No advance fares are ever available on the more direct and faster route changing just at Nottingham and Manchester.

Incidentally, I never pay the full price as I know a way of getting it down to approx £15 each way by splitting and using a combination of Advance and Anytime Singles. However, that is complicated and you need to know how to manipulate the online booking systems to reveal these fares and travel on slower stopping services.

There will be a huge amount of scrutiny about any changes to regulated prices so there is no prospect of swingeing increases to the current off-peak price - it is the underlying ticket structure that needs overhauling and whilst at the margins some people may pay more and other less it simply won't get political buy-in if there are too many losers - the subject is just too toxic.

Re the 2008 changes, in practice by far the most successful result was to the growth in Advance fares. The move to common Ts and Cs across TOCs massively helped growth in that fare category.

BTW neither I nor many in the industry have any issue over the relatively small number of people who have the time, interest and perseverance to really work out cheap fare combinations. The problem is ordinary people who lack trust is finding and buying a ticket that is (to them) reasonable value.
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I agree. However the rail industry doesn't have a good record on these sort of issues, which is why we are right to be wary. Some examples being:

- 2008 fares 'simplification' was nothing of the sort.
- The recent NRCoT in many sections adds more ambiguity than the NRCoC it replaced.
- The way Cross Country's blanket 0930 restriction on Off-Peak tickets was implemented. Did no-one really think about long distance journeys that have become all but impossible.
- The haphazard roll out of smart ticketing in some cases restricting passenger choice without a corresponding price adjustment.
- TOCs retailing Advance fares at more than the cost of an Off-Peak single

Even the redesign of ticket layout, whilst a good idea in principle, still has issues with many ticketing issuing systems printing tickets in an awful manner. Then there's the replacement of Avantix Mobile with till roll paper tickets far longer than they need to be.

I don't doubt the intention and idea is sound. The issue is the execution.

- 2008 fares 'simplification' was nothing of the sort. Agreed - but the changes to Advance fares were a (small) step in the right direction by taking lots of slightly different TOc tickets and giving them standard conditions
- The recent NRCoT in many sections adds more ambiguity than the NRCoC it replaced. Agreed that it is a long way from perfect but at present the process of managing the NRCoT is still extremely political and real simplification will require some long standing principles to be changes. Some of this will not be possible until real progress is made on fares restructuring
- The way Cross Country's blanket 0930 restriction on Off-Peak tickets was implemented. Did no-one really think about long distance journeys that have become all but impossible. Agreed - but this is precisely why current regulation doesn't work properly - it forces TOCs to maintain certain things to a ridiculous degree of micromanaged detail and completely ignores other aspects which can create havoc
- The haphazard roll out of smart ticketing in some cases restricting passenger choice without a corresponding price adjustment. That one is completely down to the totally idiotic way government procured these changes. It's taken 10 years to persuade them that you cannot revolutionise tickets separate from fares!
- TOCs retailing Advance fares at more than the cost of an Off-Peak single Yes - but the current underlying data structures for the various fares and systems make it very difficult to avoid cock-ups like this.

Even the redesign of ticket layout, whilst a good idea in principle, still has issues with many ticketing issuing systems printing tickets in an awful manner. Then there's the replacement of Avantix Mobile with till roll paper tickets far longer than they need to be.Both of these are because procurement of ticketing systems post-BR made no allowance for the need to change them. The specification for the new design ticket when produced to plan makes for a very nice product but the roll-out revealed that detailed technical knowledge of all the elements of the existing ticketing distribution system was even more of a shambles than anticipated, with no proper record keeping about which systems could do what - even within the TOCs that had bought them! Ironically, that has helped the case for more radical reform - essentially it is more cost-effective to move the industry to new platforms than to try and fix the old ones....
 

Starmill

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If the changes can move us away from the situation where people decide to drive rather than use the train, even though sometimes they're prepared to pay more (as the train is usually more expensive, even for just one person), just because the booking process is so impenetrably confusing and things like use of TVMs are so confusing then I would support them. Add to that the legal position that if a mistake with tickets is made it's all the passengers fault and that in non-zero number of cases (which is all it takes) TOCs have penalised these mistakes to the highest magnitudes and its easy to see why people sometimes give up and drive as a result not of the cost but the structure.

Goodness only knows if or how this can be achieved but if people who routinely drive or use coaches because they have their impression of the railway as confusing, 'mean' (with Penalty Fares and the like), delayed and overcrowded shattered with just a few good experiences then its more likely that they will at least consider rail in the future. I know so many people who default to bus or car without even looking if a rail option for their journey exists, let alone how much it costs or what times the trains are. This needs to change to ensure the sustainability of the industry.
 

infobleep

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You mean like simplification. Didn't make the fare structure more simple but was used by TOCs to put the prices up.
It made the names similar so if you dyslexic, you have to spend more time making sure you haven't misread it and selected the wrong one.

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I'm not quite so sure, depends how it is achieved.
If we rule out all singles having their price cut all the way to 50% of the current return price - we can hope but I doubt it - then that means the return prices will be more expensive.
For people who currently buy returns for their flexibility, despite considering going for a cheaper option of advances (like me for my major regular trip) as the price of a return goes up more will switch to trying to buy advances as the relative prices get more different. If the price of a return has to go up *by a lot* to achieve 50% for a single, then I believe that the pressure to find advances will be much higher, so for many journeys a passenger who previously could buy an advance for their one way trip (presumably the passenger type who this is meant to help) will now have to buy a single instead which will increase their costs - even if it still helps on-the-day single buyers.

I would be very interested in seeing the TOCs workings out to determine what is revenue neutral, and what % of journeys aren't "returned" by rail to the origin within a month.
Not all journeys offer advance purchase tickets, especially if it involves multiple TOCs and neither of them are an intercity route.

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Gareth Marston

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Trial areas suggest that the cat will be out the bag on any back door fare increases before they attempt to roll out nationally. We will have to monitor.

Away from the London Commuter belt the crisis in the peak is more to do with the franchise systems inability to fund at reasonable cost incremental increases in train formation length to meet growing demand. Ever more draconian restrictions and above inflation fare increase have not killed off this demand so far,The fare system has then become part of the problem not a solution to avoiding investment as some hoped.

Thinking laterally DfT ordering a few hundred DMU's from CAF or Stadler Bi Modes would go a long way to ameliorate many problems and allow growth meaning we can look at passenger growth as a means of raising revenue - the fare system is probably on its last legs as a means to do this i.e it could well end up at tipping point choking off demand and revenue.
 

anme

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Of course we should object to that. Why would I want an increase in a fare I buy (Manchester to London SVR) to help fund a decrease in a fare I don't (Manchester to London SVS)? Who really needs the SVS? According to the above it is off-peak leisure travellers - i.e the people who already buy an Advance. Oh, but I hear, what if people don't know in Advance? Well soon they can buy an Advance ticket 10 minutes before departure.

Why are people eager to increase the prices of tickets people buy in order to decrease the price of a handful of tickets people don't? As for attracting car users, to someone with a new efficient car its unlikely those fares would be competitive.

I buy sometimes buy walk up single tickets. Why should I have to subsidise you?

Anyway if single tickets are bought as rarely as you say, any increase in the cost of returns and advances need only be tiny to compensate for any loss. So why are you concerned?

BTW I want to highlight this line of your post:
"Why would I want an increase in a fare I buy to help fund a decrease in a fare I don't?"
 
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infobleep

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If the changes can move us away from the situation where people decide to drive rather than use the train, even though sometimes they're prepared to pay more (as the train is usually more expensive, even for just one person), just because the booking process is so impenetrably confusing and things like use of TVMs are so confusing then I would support them. Add to that the legal position that if a mistake with tickets is made it's all the passengers fault and that in non-zero number of cases (which is all it takes) TOCs have penalised these mistakes to the highest magnitudes and its easy to see why people sometimes give up and drive as a result not of the cost but the structure.

Goodness only knows if or how this can be achieved but if people who routinely drive or use coaches because they have their impression of the railway as confusing, 'mean' (with Penalty Fares and the like), delayed and overcrowded shattered with just a few good experiences then its more likely that they will at least consider rail in the future. I know so many people who default to bus or car without even looking if a rail option for their journey exists, let alone how much it costs or what times the trains are. This needs to change to ensure the sustainability of the industry.
Does the railway have space to accommodate these extra people? One might say well add more carriages or upgrade the infrastructure to allow more trains. That is happening but that seems to happen rather slowly as its expensive and there are only so many people who have the skills to do the work. Also if it's an existing line they need to do the work and keep it open.

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Starmill

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I buy sometimes buy walk up single tickets. Why should I have to subsidise you?

I can only guess because either you see them as good value for money or because you're content to be ripped off. In which case, how is it a problem for you? A small number of walk-on singles are good value; I once bought one from London to St Ives.

But my point you've highlighted still stands. It's like the now abolished flex - an excuse to increase the price of the most popular tickets by reducing the price of the least popular. If the external results of this are exponential rail passenger growth and less road vehicle mileage I'll put up with ludicrous off-peak return fares. But who are all of these people who are driving their car only in one direction? And as infobleep says capacity growth has not been as quick or cheap as we'd need it to be.
 
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