Did my friend make the right decision?

[Chapeltom]

Hi all

Me and my friend have just commenced a journey. The TVM at Forest Gate was not topping oyster cards up and the ticket office was empty but couldn't top oysters up anyway. He decided to purchase a paper ticket from Forest Gate to Romford as he was unable to top his Oyster up. He had insufficient credit on his Oyster. Surely this cannot be right? Is he entitled to some kind of refund as he wasn't able to his oyster up and had to purchase a paper ticket?

Ta

Tom

 

[transmanche]

Surely this cannot be right? Is he entitled to some kind of refund as he wasn't able to his oyster up and had to purchase a paper ticket?

He can certainly try. Although the response may be that he could have topped up at Wanstead Park or a nearby Ticket Stop instead.

 

[Chapeltom]

He can certainly try. Although the response may be that he could have topped up at Wanstead Park or a nearby Ticket Stop instead.

I'm not that familiar with Oyster so was unaware he could top up at a newsagent, we were in a rush anyway partly his fault! I'm sure he thinks £1.80 is not much to lose, was a bit curious myself. Would there have been sufficient grounds to travel without a ticket as he couldn't pay via his preferred medium - Oyster? I was going to suggest it, but was not sure of what his 'rights' were. I come down to London once in a blue moon.

 

[island]

It's a grey area, but my personal opinion, which is not authoritative in any way, shape or form, is that Oyster PAYG is a means of payment for a journey, and if you don't have enough credit, it's no different to only having 50p in your pocket — you need to pay for your journey some other way.

 

[cjmillsnun]

It's a grey area, but my personal opinion, which is not authoritative in any way, shape or form, is that Oyster PAYG is a means of payment for a journey, and if you don't have enough credit, it's no different to only having 50p in your pocket — you need to pay for your journey some other way.

Agreed, and credit to the OP's friend for immediately accepting this and getting a paper ticket without fuss.

 

[Urban Gateline]

I used to have this query with passengers before Oyster topup was enabled on TVM's at the station I worked at and the booking office never dealt with Oyster either.

There were several newsagents near the station so I refered passengers to these, some were not happy and wanted to "pay at the other end" because they were being "inconvenienced"!

My opinion is the same as Islands', Oyster is just a medium to pay with and it is up to the user of the card to keep it topped up and not rely on station facilities!

 

[LexyBoy]

I believe SWT and possibly other TOCs will be allowed not to offer Oyster top-up facilities (having only been required to in 2010). I find this unacceptable, but that is the case.

My opinion is that the cheapest fare should be available to passengers requiring a ticket from a given station. If that fare is available only on a specific medium, then the facility to use that medium should be provided. Agreed, the "ticket" itself is created on touching in, from credit on the card, but the NRCoC allows a range of payment methods to be used, not just electronic credit on a smartcard.

 

[island]

I used to have this query with passengers before Oyster topup was enabled on TVM's at the station I worked at and the booking office never dealt with Oyster either.

There were several newsagents near the station so I refered passengers to these, some were not happy and wanted to "pay at the other end" because they were being "inconvenienced"!

My opinion is the same as Islands', Oyster is just a medium to pay with and it is up to the user of the card to keep it topped up and not rely on station facilities!

Indeed. Anyway, with auto top-up, most people have no real excuse.

 

[maniacmartin]

I'm guessing that the justification for allowing the removal of so many paper tickets (especially off-peak ones) in the London area is that passengers can get the cheap fares with Oyster cards. So if the Oyster topup facilities aren't working, then one cannot get the cheapest fare.

I don't have auto topup, as I'm prone to losing Oyster cards or lending them to other people, which I'd rather do without the hassle of caneceling it (and the loss of credit when I inevitably find said Oyster card)

 

[transmanche]

I'm guessing that the justification for allowing the removal of so many paper tickets (especially off-peak ones) in the London area is that passengers can get the cheap fares with Oyster cards. So if the Oyster topup facilities aren't working, then one cannot get the cheapest fare

Although there are plenty of alternative ways to top-up an Oyster card; including about 4,000 ticket stops across London.

Specific to the OPs situation; Wanstead Park LO station is only about 300m away from Forest Gate NR station and there over 20 Oyster ticket stops in the Forest Gate area alone.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I believe SWT and possibly other TOCs will be allowed not to offer Oyster top-up facilities (having only been required to in 2010). I find this unacceptable, but that is the case.

I suspect the decisions were made on commercial grounds, given I believe Cubic have a monopoly on Oyster retailing equipment.

As such, TOCs not using FasTIS as their primary desktop ticket issuing system had to lease additional machines to "load" products to Oyster after selling them on their main TIS.

So if they were earning less revenue from Oyster sales than they were paying for the machines, it makes sense to terminate the contract, as irritating as that is for passengers.

 

[yorkie]

If Oyster is simply a 'method of payment' then they need to re-introduce Off Peak Day paper tickets.

Chapeltom - how about your friend enables auto top-up? It will avoid these sorts of issues, and save time queuing to top up and worrying about loading enough credit.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Well done to your friend for buying a paper ticket instead of "trying it on". It cost him £1.80, but that's better than a Penalty Fare.

It's probably worthwhile him ringing the Oyster helpline to see what they say. I think it depends on who you speak to, but I've been able to get the credit refunded on to my card in similar circumstances.

I won't use auto top-up because of the sheer cost of it. I suspect a lot of Londoners feel the same.

 

[yorkie]

The 'cost' through lost 'interest' is minuscule compared to the time saving and peace of mind benefits, in my opinion.

 

[island]

I won't use auto top-up because of the sheer cost of it. I suspect a lot of Londoners feel the same.

Please can you explain what you feel the "sheer cost of" auto top-up is, as compared to topping up when needed? Please make sure you factor in the time lost queueing at vending machines etc.

 

[MikeWh]

I don't have auto topup, as I'm prone to losing Oyster cards or lending them to other people, which I'd rather do without the hassle of caneceling it (and the loss of credit when I inevitably find said Oyster card)

You shouldn't lose credit. When the old card is cancelled they transfer the outstanding balance to a new card. The old card is worthless from the day after you report it because it goes on the hotlist to be zapped next time it is used.

 

[Squaddie]

I won't use auto top-up because of the sheer cost of it. I suspect a lot of Londoners feel the same.

There is no cost involved in auto top-up (other than, as Yorkie has mentioned, the possible interest lost by having an average of around £10 more on your Oyster card than you need - possibly 25p per year).

On the other hand, you never have to remember to top up, or queue at a ticket machine, and you will never find yourself without credit miles from a station or newsagent. I'd say that auto top-up is essential for anyone who uses London's transport network more than a couple of times a week.

 

[greatkingrat]

The downside is you are less likely to notice if you have been charged incorrectly.

 

[MikeWh]

The downside is you are less likely to notice if you have been charged incorrectly.

You can sign up to receive weekly or monthly journey statements by email. You also get an email every time auto top up is taken, so if this happens quicker than you expect you can log in and check journey history manually.

 

[transmanche]

The downside is you are less likely to notice if you have been charged incorrectly.

How so? You get an email every time an auto top-up is applied; so if you get one sooner than you expect, you can take action. Plus you can have your Oyster statement emailed to you weekly or monthly. Of course, you can also look at the Oyster website anytime to check your journey history. And you can check recent journeys at a ticket machine.

I generally just keep an eye on the balance/fare when boarding buses and exiting through gatelines.

I think that's pretty comprehensive!

 

[455driver]

Chapeltom - how about your friend enables auto top-up? It will avoid these sorts of issues, and save time queuing to top up and worrying about loading enough credit.

Or just make sure he doesnt run the balance right down in the first place!

 

[Tetchytyke]

There is no cost involved in auto top-up (other than, as Yorkie has mentioned, the possible interest lost by having an average of around £10 more on your Oyster card than you need - possibly 25p per year).

My issue with auto top-up is a) the fact that the minimum auto top-up is £20 and b) the fact that the trigger point is a balance of £10. That means that, with auto top-up set up, I'm going to have anywhere between £10 and £30 sitting on my card doing nothing. The interest lost doesn't bother me, the fact that £30 is a lot of money (it's about 50% of my weekly food budget) is the thing that bothers me.

Given that the minimum top-up online is £5, and at the ticket machine it is 10p, I don't see how TfL justify this. Auto top-up should be the cheapest system for them to use, so I don't understand why it is the most expensive system for me to use.

I have a Z1-3 annual on Oyster and I spend less than £5 a month on additional fares; auto top-up is the equivalent of six months' fares for me. Ridiculous.

 

[island]

My issue with auto top-up is a) the fact that the minimum auto top-up is £20 and b) the fact that the trigger point is a balance of £10. That means that, with auto top-up set up, I'm going to have anywhere between £10 and £30 sitting on my card doing nothing. The interest lost doesn't bother me, the fact that £30 is a lot of money (it's about 50% of my weekly food budget) is the thing that bothers me.

Given that the minimum top-up online is £5, and at the ticket machine it is 10p, I don't see how TfL justify this. Auto top-up should be the cheapest system for them to use, so I don't understand why it is the most expensive system for me to use.

I have a Z1-3 annual on Oyster and I spend less than £5 a month on additional fares; auto top-up is the equivalent of six months' fares for me. Ridiculous.

OK, that's fair enough, but you criticised the "sheer cost" of auto top-up whereas your concern is having money out of use. That's not a cost problem, it's a personal liquidity problem.

I think TfL's reasoning for setting the auto top-up trigger is twofold: to minimize losses in case of failed settlement of auto top-ups, and also to earn interest on the cash balances (£10 isn't much individually, but there's got to be hundreds of thousands of people with auto top-up set).

 

[Be3G]

The high cost of the auto top-up trigger is because of the similarly high cost of maximum PAYG fares; the system is designed so that a user of auto top-up should never see a negative balance on their card.

As for the £20/£40 top-up amounts, I suppose they're set at those somewhat high amounts to reduce processing costs for TfL – presumably, more small transactions cost more to process that one larger one. Not terribly convenient for people who don't use PAYG often, but the only way to ensure one doesn't run in to trouble somewhere.

 

[b0b]

It's a grey area, but my personal opinion, which is not authoritative in any way, shape or form, is that Oyster PAYG is a means of payment for a journey, and if you don't have enough credit, it's no different to only having 50p in your pocket — you need to pay for your journey some other way.

I'm a little confused by this line of argument - do we feel there is a requirement to pay in any manner thats currently being accepted before you board?

I understood the general consensus was you were allowed to choose to pay in any form acceptable by the NRCOC, and if that chosen form isn't accepted, then its a "not a full range of tickets" situation, regardless if the other forms of payment you are currently carrying would be accepted.

Clearly he did have the means to pay in his pocket, since he was able to by a paper ticket.

At the end of the day, I would think he did the best thing, no point stressing over 1.80

 

[34D]

I'm a little confused by this line of argument - do we feel there is a requirement to pay in any manner thats currently being accepted before you board?

I understood the general consensus was you were allowed to choose to pay in any form acceptable by the NRCOC, and if that chosen form isn't accepted, then its a "not a full range of tickets" situation, regardless if the other forms of payment you are currently carrying would be accepted.

Clearly he did have the means to pay in his pocket, since he was able to by a paper ticket.

At the end of the day, I would think he did the best thing, no point stressing over 1.80

I think the point being made is that he can pay for his journey by cash, by credit card or by oyster electronic funds..... but that the TOC isn't obliged to provide a mechanism to create oyster electronic funds.