I was travelling from new cross to Euston by bus which involves two buses, this counts as one fare on oyster if you touch in on second journey within a certain time. I touched in on first bus and forgot to on second bus. I got stopped shortly after getting on the second bus and explained That I had tapped on first not long before. They said they couldn’t check so fined by penalty notice £40. I appealed on the basis that they had not incurred a loss as my fare had been paid on first bus. They have rejected my appeal. How can they fine me if I have paid for the journey ?, there has been no loss. Can anyone advise ?
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Did not touch in on second part of journey on bus
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ForTheLoveOf
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I'm afraid this is more of a rail forum than a bus forum, so I don't think we'll be able to advise on the exact specifics, but a Penalty Fare is not designed to punish you for evading a fare - it is allegedly for "honest mistakes". Whilst failing to touch in did not result in them losing any revenue, you still had no valid ticket.
I would chalk it up to experience and pay, to be honest. There could definitely be more to pay than a Penalty Fare if you don't pay it now, and I don't see a defence.
Welcome to the forum.
You're required to tap in on each bus you use and you didn't do this, therefore the Penalty Fare was issued correctly. I'd pay it promptly to avoid the matter escalating. I realise that it doesn't seem fair, and this isn't the answer you want to hear but I really don't see any other grounds for appealing.
You're required to tap in on each bus you use and you didn't do this, therefore the Penalty Fare was issued correctly. I'd pay it promptly to avoid the matter escalating. I realise that it doesn't seem fair, and this isn't the answer you want to hear but I really don't see any other grounds for appealing.
You were charged a Penalty Fare because you had not tapped in; this was a mistake and the correct action was applied. It isn't a fine, and anyone being charged a PF is not being accused of deliberately avoiding the fare.
My advice is to pay it promptly, and appeal (paying it does not prevent you appealing, but delaying payment will result in the charge being increased)
In your appeal, you need to submit evidence that you paid the fare on the first bus, for example a screenshot from your Oyster/PAYG online account.
I do not know if you have much chance of success and they are within their rights to reject your appeal, but you have the right to make the appeal, and there is no harm appealing.
I don't think there is anything any of us can add. Let us know how you get on, as it will be interesting to find out.
When I appealed I did a screenshot of my oyster account that proved I had tapped in at New Cross. I see what your saying about the rules about tapping in but this is a little different as the fare charged on the first bus covered the second bus journey. I wasn’t sure whether they would have had to incur a loss, I believe it would be the case under common law. I suppose the contract includes their t’s and c’s. I’m in two minds on this as it’s clear I had no intention of depriving them of revenue, therefore a reasonable company would see that.
The company might incur a loss actually; TfL contracts out the bus routes to different operators. If you used two different operators, then only the first one would get the cash from TfL maybe. I'm not sure this argument would work. Maybe it will, but it could be a difficult road...
It will cost a lot if you want to have a landmark legal case. It will also take time. If you do not pay the Penalty Fare and choose to appoint a solicitor to defend you if it goes to court, then that could prove expensive if you lose the case. Or maybe your plan is to pay the fare, and take TfL to court.
Either way, it won't be cheap! But I'd be interested to hear the outcome!
The fact that you had tapped in on the first bus doesn't change the fact that you didn't tap in on the second.
Have you ever visited the bus forum part of the site?
And as this is an Oyster query there are plenty of people who are versed in the specifics and can help.
The way bus checks work is slightly different to checks on trains. When the inspector boards the bus they connect their reader to the bus computer and download the list of cards (oyster or contactless) that have been touched in on that journey. If yours had not been touched in on that journey then it wouldn't pass. As others have said, you have been treated correctly.
When you touch in on a bus the reader checks whether you are within an active hopper hour (actually 70 minutes). If you are then no charge is made, but the fact that you used the bus is recorded.
You can board by the middle or rear doors on a new routemaster.
Of course you can, forgot about those. Are the rear doors still open on those now the conductors aren't on them?
They only open at stops as far as I am aware: it seems to largely defeat the point of building something with the rear platform and doors.
In the early days I have known drivers only open the front and middle doors when there was no "conductor" on board. Very annoying if you use the rear staircase.
jumble
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Yorkie
FYI
My understanding is that all TFL buses are all contracted for a fixed amount and duration and none of the farebox takings go to the operators so no one loses out.
HTH Jumble
FYI
My understanding is that all TFL buses are all contracted for a fixed amount and duration and none of the farebox takings go to the operators so no one loses out.
HTH Jumble
Not to alter the advice already given - pay the penalty fare then appeal but looking at it from the dark side I can see TfL's view . How to they know you were not planning a three bus journey ? In the normal course of events the 3rd leg would be chargeable but if you skipped the 2nd touch and the middle leg was sufficiently short then the 3rd leg would be free - so you would get away with £1.50 rather than £3.00 .
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Fundamentally, it is very simple. In order to claim your free second journey you must touch in. As you did not touch in, you had no valid authority to travel, and therefore a Penalty Fare was correctly issued. A Penalty Fare is not issued for wilful evasion, but simply for not holding a valid authority to travel regardless of the grounds for this with some very specific exceptions, none of which apply in this case.
Whether they have incurred a loss is not relevant, it is simply a matter of fact of whether the correct procedure was followed when boarding, and it was not.
You should pay it, and there are no valid grounds for appeal I can see, unfortunately.
Whether they have incurred a loss is not relevant, it is simply a matter of fact of whether the correct procedure was followed when boarding, and it was not.
You should pay it, and there are no valid grounds for appeal I can see, unfortunately.
IanD
Established Member
3rd leg would only be chargeable if started more than 70 minutes after the start of leg 1. The hopper fare allows unlimited touch-ins within each 70 minutes for a single fare.
The Hopper fare changed a while back. You can now use as many buses as you like within the hour and all but the first will be free.
This doesn't alter the fact that TfL's Conditions of Carriage require you to touch in when boarding a bus and using Oyster or Contactless regardless of whether a Hopper fare and/or cap applies, and that a failure to do so means you're unable to produce a validated card on demand.
Payments to operators do vary, but not based on the number of passengers carried. Operators have a series of bonuses and penalties. On low frequency routes these are based on timekeeping and on high frequency buses on keeping an even level of service.
Surreytraveller
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London Buses are similar to the GTR 'franchise'. The revenue goes to TfL, not the bus companies
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