• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Did this stock ever exist or is it computer generated?

Status
Not open for further replies.

MG11

Member
Joined
4 Nov 2017
Messages
638
In this video from 1982, at around 00:25, a train is seen running along the suburbs. It is supposedly a British train. Yet, there are no gangways between the coaches! Is this an actual historic rolling stock or just an un-realistic attempt at mimicking British rolling stock?
Madness - Our House
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

DanNCL

Established Member
Joined
17 Jul 2017
Messages
4,290
Location
County Durham
In this video from 1982, at around 00:25, a train is seen running along the suburbs. It is supposedly a British train. Yet, there are no gangways between the coaches! Is this an actual historic rolling stock or just an un-realistic attempt at mimicking British rolling stock?
I think that a number of the older third rail types were like this; maybe it was one of them?
 

Cowley

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
15,787
Location
Devon
It is an old 3rd rail EMU. My first thought was a 2EPB on a North London line service but I’m not sure if they had gangways? Someone will know though.
Quite a few units had no gangway connections back then (the class 115s that worked the Chiltern services come to mind).
I remember taking an electric unit out Liverpool Street in the 80s that had compartments from one side of the carriage to the other. I.e if you got into one you couldn’t leave it until the next station.
If I remember correctly they put a red or orange stripe above the doors on those coaches eventually so that passengers knew which were which.
 

delt1c

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2008
Messages
2,125
Camden on the North London Line. A 3car 501. Lots of suburban stock around that time were non gangwayed. EPB's , HAP's, 302,303,304,305,306,307,308, 310 (partialy gangway), there are plenty more examples.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,024
Location
Yorks
If you (the OP) want to see one (or something similar) close up, the NRM are currently restoring a Southern Region 2HAP unit.
 

Harpers Tate

Established Member
Joined
10 May 2013
Messages
1,709
There was certainly high density stock in the 60s that had no gangways either within the coach or between them; just separate compartments with a single seat wide enough for 6 on each side, and a slam-door at each side. As well as certain EMUs, it was standard for a Cl31 loco and four(?) non-gangwayed coaches on certain suburban routes north out of London.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,024
Location
Yorks
The 4SUB's and older 4EPB's were built with a single non-corridor compartment trailer (all other carriages being saloon). There were other variants, such as carriages being divided into two saloons etc.

A lot of the non-corridor compartment carriages were opened or swapped out during the late 1980's, early 90's.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,055
Location
Airedale
As well as certain EMUs, it was standard for a Cl31 loco and four(?) non-gangwayed coaches on certain suburban routes north out of London.
As well as pure compartment stock, internally gangwayed lavatory stock was used for longer distances - ISTR the KWVR has some. The GN routes from Moorgate, Broad St(?) and Kings Cross all had plenty of hailed workings.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,024
Location
Yorks
On the HAP's and DEMU's, one carriage had a toilet, but the other(S) didn't, so one had to choose ones seat carefully (or be prepared to hop off and onto a neighbouring carriage) if needing it.
 

PeterC

Established Member
Joined
29 Sep 2014
Messages
4,086
On the HAP's and DEMU's, one carriage had a toilet, but the other(S) didn't, so one had to choose ones seat carefully (or be prepared to hop off and onto a neighbouring carriage) if needing it.
Most of the "slam door" EMUs on the GE and LTS in the 60s were non corridor with doors to each bay. Units normally had 2 coaches all compartments and 2 saloons with toilets.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,024
Location
Yorks
Most of the "slam door" EMUs on the GE and LTS in the 60s were non corridor with doors to each bay. Units normally had 2 coaches all compartments and 2 saloons with toilets.

Ah yes. The only Anglian slam door units I travelled on were the 308's, but that was after their refurb.
 

341o2

Established Member
Joined
17 Oct 2011
Messages
1,906
As well as pure compartment stock, internally gangwayed lavatory stock was used for longer distances - ISTR the KWVR has some. The GN routes from Moorgate, Broad St(?) and Kings Cross all had plenty of hailed workings.

The GN stock were known as block enders and were stabled at several principle stations on the suburban system, Welwyn Garden City, Hertford, Hatfield. Gordon Hill, for example. Other sets came from as far afield as Royston. These "outer suburban" sets did have some gangway and lavatories Usually each set would make one down working - usually to Moorgate in the morning peak plus ecs, then back to Moorgate for an up working back in the evening peak. Uncertain about Broad St,

They were withdrawn upon electrification of the GN suburban lines and abandonment of Kings Cross to Moorgate being replaced by Finsbury Park to Moorgate
 

306024

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2013
Messages
3,946
Location
East Anglia
Camden on the North London Line. A 3car 501. Lots of suburban stock around that time were non gangwayed. EPB's , HAP's, 302,303,304,305,306,307,308, 310 (partialy gangway), there are plenty more examples.

I’d agree with that. The 501s were good fun, bars across the door windows to stop anyone bumping their head on Hampstead Heath tunnel.

The song is more interesting than the train though.
 

delt1c

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2008
Messages
2,125
The 501's were probably one of the most depressing units to ride on, no character, unloved, thread bear seating, the line was no better yet they soldiered on . Unloved, uncared for. Unsung heroes
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
14,830
Location
Epsom
I remember the 501s very well and I would agree with the "good fun to ride on" comment from 306024 above.

From my archives, at Queen's Park, Highbury and Islington and Broad Street respectively:

Peter Archive 1519.jpg Peter Archive 1528.jpg Peter Archive 1529.jpg
 

delt1c

Established Member
Joined
4 Apr 2008
Messages
2,125
As an enthusiasts I loved to ride the 501's and the NLL it was such a forgotten backwater with so much character. Had I been a daily commuter I am not to sure
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
7,787
Location
Herts
As an enthusiasts I loved to ride the 501's and the NLL it was such a forgotten backwater with so much character. Had I been a daily commuter I am not to sure

No worse than the Southern fleet , they had deep seat cushions and a fair turn of speed (they would oscillate gently from side to side above 40 mph) , rugged and dependable units. The window bars were a bit off putting 0though.

The sole compartments were taken out sometime in the 1970;s due to some spectacular vandalism .....
 

Bookd

Member
Joined
27 Aug 2015
Messages
445
Although in the seventies I lived near to Kew Gardens I seldom used the North London line; the stock was dreadful except for an enthusiast, the whole operation was run down, and the line was sparesly used and under threat of closure. It is remarkable that it is now packed all.day as part of the LO network.
 

MG11

Member
Joined
4 Nov 2017
Messages
638
If you (the OP) want to see one (or something similar) close up, the NRM are currently restoring a Southern Region 2HAP unit.
Thanks for the tip off, I'd love to get a good look at this type of stock, I think a trip up there is in order in the new year!
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,024
Location
Yorks
Thanks for the tip off, I'd love to get a good look at this type of stock, I think a trip up there is in order in the new year!

Keep an eye out for news. It's still in works at the moment, but it will probably be mentioned here when its around for viewing.
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,092
It may surprise some that, until the 1950s, almost all local service stock was like this, apart from that cascaded down from long distance services, and this last was not too popular operationally because it had toilets which needed facilities to service them, often not available at local service sidings. Just a few emu fleets had been built with open stock, many were compartment as well.

The 1957 Class 501 were indeed Spartan, ironically they had replaced what according to past writers (because they went well before my time) were some of the most comfortable open saloon electric stock there had been, the 1920 LNWR Oerlikon sets, which even got special accolades from general writers like Sir John Betjeman.

Stock with compartments right across was known as "non corridor", to distinguish it from that with a corridor down one side, generally for main line services. Stock without connections between carriages was "non gangwayed". Side corridor stock was generally gangwayed, but there were some which were not. The Southern 2-HAP electric unit (late 1950s) described above was one such. These were "better" than basic suburban stock as they had first class, and were felt to need some provision for toilets, although in only one of the two coaches. Corridors in a coach were principally seen as needed to access toilets, and gangways between coaches to access any restaurant car further along the train.

There was little open main line stock of the current style, especially on the old GWR, and I can still recall BR Mk 1 open stock in the 1960s being incorrectly referred to by older passengers as "restaurant cars". The GWR only built open main line stock, specially, for excursion work. There's a very nice, about 1935, one at Didcot museum, which makes you realise just how comfortable vehicles of that era were, especially given they were built for low-fare summer holiday work (they were also dug out for relief trains at Christmas etc) - and that it's been sat out in the open in sidings for 80 years.

The big advantage of non corridor stock was seating capacity. Theoretically 6 a side (think current 3+2 suburban stock, with an extra seat where the middle walkway is), 12 to a compartment. If 10 compartments in a coach, as in some Southern 4-SUB units, that's 120 seats per coach. When I see modern stock like the 378s with 40 seats along the sides. I think that's one THIRD of the onetime seating capacity. Then you look at all those crushed in standing, and think that in the old stock they would all be sat down.

The downside was finding a seat on a busy train, passengers had to walk along the platform to spot one, extending dwell times. And on outward journeys, as passengers left, you could get some compartments now empty where the next one was still crush loaded. There could also be criminal activities which, although extremely rare, were a part of the sudden move to get rid of such vehicles in a rush around 1980.
 

Cowley

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
15 Apr 2016
Messages
15,787
Location
Devon
It may surprise some that, until the 1950s, almost all local service stock was like this, apart from that cascaded down from long distance services, and this last was not too popular operationally because it had toilets which needed facilities to service them, often not available at local service sidings. Just a few emu fleets had been built with open stock, many were compartment as well.

The 1957 Class 501 were indeed Spartan, ironically they had replaced what according to past writers (because they went well before my time) were some of the most comfortable open saloon electric stock there had been, the 1920 LNWR Oerlikon sets, which even got special accolades from general writers like Sir John Betjeman.

Stock with compartments right across was known as "non corridor", to distinguish it from that with a corridor down one side, generally for main line services. Stock without connections between carriages was "non gangwayed". Side corridor stock was generally gangwayed, but there were some which were not. The Southern 2-HAP electric unit (late 1950s) described above was one such. These were "better" than basic suburban stock as they had first class, and were felt to need some provision for toilets, although in only one of the two coaches. Corridors in a coach were principally seen as needed to access toilets, and gangways between coaches to access any restaurant car further along the train.

There was little open main line stock of the current style, especially on the old GWR, and I can still recall BR Mk 1 open stock in the 1960s being incorrectly referred to by older passengers as "restaurant cars". The GWR only built open main line stock, specially, for excursion work. There's a very nice, about 1935, one at Didcot museum, which makes you realise just how comfortable vehicles of that era were, especially given they were built for low-fare summer holiday work (they were also dug out for relief trains at Christmas etc) - and that it's been sat out in the open in sidings for 80 years.

The big advantage of non corridor stock was seating capacity. Theoretically 6 a side (think current 3+2 suburban stock, with an extra seat where the middle walkway is), 12 to a compartment. If 10 compartments in a coach, as in some Southern 4-SUB units, that's 120 seats per coach. When I see modern stock like the 378s with 40 seats along the sides. I think that's one THIRD of the onetime seating capacity. Then you look at all those crushed in standing, and think that in the old stock they would all be sat down.

The downside was finding a seat on a busy train, passengers had to walk along the platform to spot one, extending dwell times. And on outward journeys, as passengers left, you could get some compartments now empty where the next one was still crush loaded. There could also be criminal activities which, although extremely rare, were a part of the sudden move to get rid of such vehicles in a rush around 1980.
Taunton - My Dad has recently joined the forum and his username is Oerlikon. He’s written about those units and also how the line was back then in the 1950s. I’ve talked to him about it too and find it fascinating. There is a carriage from one of those trains in the NRM which he managed to get a photo of recently, if I’d ever learnt how to link his post I’d share it, but despite being a septuagenarian he’s far more savvy with these kind of things than I am :lol:.
He hasn’t posted much so it’d be easy to find if you wanted to, or if anyone knows how to link it?
 

Peter Mugridge

Veteran Member
Joined
8 Apr 2010
Messages
14,830
Location
Epsom
He hasn’t posted much so it’d be easy to find if you wanted to, or if anyone knows how to link it?

Right click on the post number in the top right corner of the post; there should be an option to copy the link address - that'll be the link to the specific post.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,024
Location
Yorks
Stock with compartments right across was known as "non corridor", to distinguish it from that with a corridor down one side, generally for main line services. Stock without connections between carriages was "non gangwayed". Side corridor stock was generally gangwayed, but there were some which were not. The Southern 2-HAP electric unit (late 1950s) described above was one such. These were "better" than basic suburban stock as they had first class, and were felt to need some provision for toilets, although in only one of the two coaches. Corridors in a coach were principally seen as needed to access toilets, and gangways between coaches to access any restaurant car further along the train.

There was little open main line stock of the current style, especially on the old GWR, and I can still recall BR Mk 1 open stock in the 1960s being incorrectly referred to by older passengers as "restaurant cars". The GWR only built open main line stock, specially, for excursion work. There's a very nice, about 1935, one at Didcot museum, which makes you realise just how comfortable vehicles of that era were, especially given they were built for low-fare summer holiday work (they were also dug out for relief trains at Christmas etc) - and that it's been sat out in the open in sidings for 80 years.

The big advantage of non corridor stock was seating capacity. Theoretically 6 a side (think current 3+2 suburban stock, with an extra seat where the middle walkway is), 12 to a compartment. If 10 compartments in a coach, as in some Southern 4-SUB units, that's 120 seats per coach. When I see modern stock like the 378s with 40 seats along the sides. I think that's one THIRD of the onetime seating capacity. Then you look at all those crushed in standing, and think that in the old stock they would all be sat down.

The downside was finding a seat on a busy train, passengers had to walk along the platform to spot one, extending dwell times. And on outward journeys, as passengers left, you could get some compartments now empty where the next one was still crush loaded. There could also be criminal activities which, although extremely rare, were a part of the sudden move to get rid of such vehicles in a rush around 1980.

Out of interest, why do you qualify the "better" for 2HAP stock with speech marks ? They clearly had better facilities and were therefore better than suburban stock for longer distance journeys.
 

Taunton

Established Member
Joined
1 Aug 2013
Messages
10,092
Out of interest, why do you qualify the "better" for 2HAP stock with speech marks ? They clearly had better facilities and were therefore better than suburban stock for longer distance journeys.
Well the MBS is the same as an EPB vehicle, in fact a few were interchanged. So the provision for the majority of the standard class passengers was exactly as in a suburban unit. Only the DTC has half standard, and half firsts in compartments, both with toilet access. All the mechanical and electrical parts were the same as a 2-EPB. Not all were BR build, a proportion of the 2-HAP (not even the first built) were to the earlier EPB body style, mounted on recycled 1930s underframes after the 2-NOL stock had their dilapidated bodies removed.
 
Last edited:

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
39,024
Location
Yorks
Well the MBS is the same as an EPB vehicle, in fact a few were interchanged. So the provision for the majority of the standard class passengers was exactly as in a suburban unit. Only the DTC has half standard, and half firsts in compartments, both with toilet access. All the mechanical and electrical parts were the same as a 2-EPB. Not all were BR build, a proportion of the 2-HAP (not even the first built) were to the earlier EPB body style, mounted on recycled 1930s underframes after the 2-NOL stock had their dilapidated bodies removed.

So they were better as they had better facilities for passengers - they had access to a toilet and an opportunity to go first class (including presumably the SR design body ones - which I never got to travel on unfortunately)
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
18,055
Location
Airedale
So they were better as they had better facilities for passengers - they had access to a toilet and an opportunity to go first class (including presumably the SR design body ones - which I never got to travel on unfortunately)
They had a full side corridor IIRC and a coupe compartment, almost identical to the last HALs, and I preferred them - but we didn't get them on the SED.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top