Didcot Parkway to Manchester Off Peak Return SVR

[bkhtele]

There are two off peak returns:
1. SVR £78.50 via any permitted route (br fares says set by cross country, Cross london no) The ticket prints without the maltese cross and says any permitted route.

2. SVR £106.30 via London (br fares say set by virgin west coast, Cross london yes)

If my understanding is correct the more expensive £106.30 is valid both via London & Oxford.

Also surely any permitted routes ticket £78.50 would also be valid both via London & Oxford? Could someone check the routing guide for me?

 

[Hadders]

If you want to travel one way via London and the other avoiding London then buy the cheaper ticket and get a change of route excess for the portion you wish use via London.

 

[bkhtele]

I would like to use the SVR £78.50 via any permitted route to travel via London, surely it is a permitted route?

 

[Romilly]

This does look odd. From the routeing guide, it seems clear to me that both fares are valid via London, and that both include cross-London travel, whether or not they print with the Maltese cross. However, I haven't yet found a site that's selling the "any permitted" fare with a via London itinerary.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The lower fare has a 2V Restriction Code on it which is applicable to Cross Country Trains & Connections only only therefore not valid via other operators. i.e not via London.

The higher fare is a 9I Restriction but can be used on a number of routes including via Nottingham, via Oxford and Hereford and via Newport.

 

[Romilly]

I think that I am still puzzled: although I agree that 2V applies to the lower fare, and that that restriction is commonly used on fares set by Cross Country, I cannot see anything which says that the ticket is valid only on Cross Country trains.

 

[bkhtele]

That is why I am confused. The ticket says any permitted.

 

[methethpropbut]

Throwing out random ideas here - was this route ever not valid via London?

 

[Gareth Marston]

There is no standard definition of "Off Peak" or "Any Permitted", Its all to do with Restriction Code.

 

[Merseysider]

The lower fare has a 2V Restriction Code on it which is applicable to Cross Country Trains & Connections only only therefore not valid via other operators

Nonsense. The ticket is routed Any Permitted.

 

[Romilly]

All this suggests that there's something in the electronic data using by booking sites that results in them treating the £78.50 as if it were routed "not via London".

In particular, I can get an itinerary for the £78.50 for Didcot-Southall-West Ealing-Greenford-underground to South Ruislip-High Wycombe-Banbury-Manchester, so avoiding all London Terminals whilst getting as close as possible to them.

 

[yorkie]

I would like to use the SVR £78.50 via any permitted route to travel via London, surely it is a permitted route?

It is a permitted route, however it might not be a hassle-free journey.

• LU gateline staff will not accept the ticket for use on LU (trying to discuss the Routeing Guide with them will not be successful)
• Paddington & Euston gateline staff - if the trains use gated platforms - may believe/suspect the ticket to not be valid via London, which could lead to various potential outcomes, such as:-
  • They may carry out the appropriate checks and reach the correct conclusion and allow you to travel without charge, but this may take some time.
    
  • They may incorrectly reject the ticket, and charge you what they believe to be the appropriate excess (ie. half the difference between the appropriate fares).
  • They may give you the benefit of any doubt and let you pass without delay

This does look odd. From the routeing guide, it seems clear to me that both fares are valid via London, and that both include cross-London travel, whether or not they print with the Maltese cross. However, I haven't yet found a site that's selling the "any permitted" fare with a via London itinerary.

All sites should sell this for an itinerary involving a 'make your own way' transfer across London (see attachment for an example showing such an itinerary).

However they are not authorised to issue an itinerary involving a tube transfer by London Underground.

http://www.brtimes.com/#!board?stn=PAD&date=20171120 shows that LU transfers apply at all times except From 0001 until 0529.

... therefore not valid via other operators. i.e not via London.

This is completely incorrect. There is no route restriction and there is certainly no train company restriction.

All this suggests that there's something in the electronic data using by booking sites that results in them treating the £78.50 as if it were routed "not via London".

The electronic data bars cross-London transfer. That's it.

http://data.atoc.org/routeing-guide instructions says:

The via London, Maltese cross symbol on a ticket signifies that the ticket may be used via London Underground or Thameslink services. Unless a ticket specifies that the journey must be made via London, passengers are free to use an alternative ‘permitted route’ for their journey as provided by the Routeing Guide.

In some instances (particularly long distance cross country journeys) the fares data will show an "any permitted" fare but without the via London, Maltese cross symbol. Reference to Section C (the “yellow pages”) may show via London to be a permitted route for this journey and in such instances travel via London to include cross-London transfer would be permitted.

However in practice you won't be allowed through the London Underground gatelines.

Attachment shows a search for:

Didcot Parkway to Manchester Piccadilly
Sat 13 Jan 2018, dep. 23:45

and shows the following itinerary as valid for a £78.50 Off Peak Return (SVR) routed Any Permitted:

23:49 Didcot Parkway
01:21 London Paddington

Make your way from London Paddington to London Euston

08:10 London Euston
10:54 Manchester Piccadilly

 

[sheff1]

There is no standard definition of "Off Peak" or "Any Permitted", Its all to do with Restriction Code.

"Off Peak" relates to the times a ticket is valid, which are detailed in the Restriction Code.

"Any Permitted" relates to the routes the ticket may be used on, which are detailed in the Routeing Guide.

An Any Permitted Off Peak ticket from Didcot to Manchester is shown in the Routeing Guide as being valid via London. The times it is valid are in Restriction Code 2V. Who sets the fare is not relevant to where and when it is valid.

 

[bkhtele]

Is my understanding correct the more expensive £106.30 is valid both via London & Oxford.

Thank you for your input.

Is the above also correct?

 

[yorkie]

A "+via London" fare is valid for routes avoiding London, where a lower priced fare which is valid for those routes exists.

Routeing Guide Instructions

Where the fare specifies a particular route, there will be restrictions in the fare routes data that will affect the routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description. The National Routeing Guide may be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description. Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies

There is one XC Guard who incorrectly reports people using these valid fares for prosecution if they refuse to buy a new ticket, but don't let that put you off, as XC will soon be made to regret that, when they lose an upcoming case.

 

[bkhtele]

Many thanks

 

[bb21]

I think you have just exposed one of the best kept secrets.

"Winning a battle, losing a war" comes to mind.

But fair game. Well done for spotting it. Now count down to the day the ticket is re-routed Not Via London.

 

[bkhtele]

Ops

A "+via London" fare is valid for routes avoiding London, where a lower priced fare which is valid for those routes exists.

Routeing Guide Instructions



There is one XC Guard who incorrectly reports people using these valid fares for prosecution if they refuse to buy a new ticket, but don't let that put you off, as XC will soon be made to regret that, when they lose an upcoming case.

I think you have just exposed one of the best kept secrets.

"Winning a battle, losing a war" comes to mind.

But fair game. Well done for spotting it. Now count down to the day the ticket is re-routed Not Via London.

ops sorry, direct message next time. Thanks again for your help

 

[bb21]

Ops


ops sorry, direct message next time. Thanks again for your help

Don't worry about it. Loopholes are there to be used. They will all go sooner or later and new ones discovered.

I however suggest that you purchase the ticket asap as the routeing could change very quickly.