Diesel locos to Trafford Park

[pemma]

I've noticed that diesel locos are being used on freight to and from Trafford Park despite being electrified. Is this a common occurrence or are the diesels just filling in for a temporary shortage.

 

[142094]

Common occurrence - everytime I go past there is normally one or two 66s around.

 

[The Snap]

Whenever I'm at Piccadilly or in the area any freight that goes past tends to be FL 66s...

Perhaps they are routed along non-electrified sections for a small duration of their journey?

 

[Hydro]

I'm sure some come up from Soton Maritime.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It is usually considered uneconomical to change from diesel to electric locos on route given there is often no speed difference, so those freight trains that have even a small portion of diesel running are usually diesel throughout.

 

[Hydro]

It is usually considered uneconomical to change from diesel to electric locos on route given there is often no speed difference, so those freight trains that have even a small portion of diesel running are usually diesel throughout.

True that, but electrics can accelerate faster than diesels, and thus keep up a higher average speed, clearing sections quicker. I think it's more that there aren't very many electrics around now, it's easier to keep the diesel on rather than fanny about changing engines.

 

[pemma]

I'm sure some come up from Soton Maritime.

I thought they went via a West Midlands depot opposed to going directly from Southampton to Manchester.

 

[The Snap]

True that, but electrics can accelerate faster than diesels, and thus keep up a higher average speed, clearing sections quicker. I think it's more that there aren't very many electrics around now, it's easier to keep the diesel on rather than fanny about changing engines.

That's true - there can't be many 86s or 90s available can there? Especially considering the 86s are usually doubled up!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

DBS have 24x90s, most in store I think.
Freightliner have 13(?)x86s and 10x90s, most in use.
EWS and GBRF have use of 92s also, some in store, some being refubished.
And there have been more 86s and 87s made available at times (EWS also owned some!), so I'm not sure the 'not enough electrics' arguement really holds as much water as you think.

 

[Hydro]

Let's change that then. Not enough useable electrics.

Most of DB's spare Skodas are knackered. Go up Crewe Electric and see the 90's and stored 92's with bushes growing through them, and robbed for parts. The 86's are dwindling, most (if not all) of the 87's outside of preservation are in Eastern Europe, same for a lot of the stored 86's.

FL's 90's and 86's that are in service seem to be pretty busy on their current work rather than being available for use elsewhere.

The hope is that DB dig deep and get some more 92's on the road, or even get scrape together a few more useable 90's from the scrap pile. I've not seen a DB 90 on work outside of the sleepers for a while now, though there was one knocking around the GE, possible as a spare for NXEA. GB's 92's could be a new saviour, but I would think they'd be primarily for GB jobs than for hire.

I'd love to see more AC's at work. From the outside, maybe DB are looking at using more of the assets they own rather than the ones they lease (i.e. 66's), from the 60 overhaul programme and rumours of 66's going abroad.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Let's change that then. Not enough useable electrics.

Most of DB's spare Skodas are knackered. Go up Crewe Electric and see the 90's and stored 92's with bushes growing through them, and robbed for parts. The 86's are dwindling, most (if not all) of the 87's outside of preservation are in Eastern Europe, same for a lot of the stored 86's.

FL's 90's and 86's that are in service seem to be pretty busy on their current work rather than being available for use elsewhere.

The hope is that DB dig deep and get some more 92's on the road, or even get scrape together a few more useable 90's from the scrap pile. I've not seen a DB 90 on work outside of the sleepers for a while now, though there was one knocking around the GE, possible as a spare for NXEA. GB's 92's could be a new saviour, but I would think they'd be primarily for GB jobs than for hire.

I'd love to see more AC's at work. From the outside, maybe DB are looking at using more of the assets they own rather than the ones they lease (i.e. 66's), from the 60 overhaul programme and rumours of 66's going abroad.

Europorte have purchased 5 more 92's from SNCF. Hopefully for use with GBRF although i dont know where GBRF intend to use the 92s

 

[cj_1985]

are we remembering that :

(i) Freightliner may have class 86s and class 90s... but the 90s already have booked workings, and the class 86s (as already mentioned) are often doubled up, aswell as there being a few of freightliners class 86s OOS due to wheelsets issues, exams or having gone on fire and being likely to be written off..

(ii) the DBS class 90s that are out of service.. several of them are only out of service due to lack of replacement wheelsets, so any servicable wheelsets are being used to keep the class 90s that are required for contract work ie. FSR sleeper haulage, and spare loco for NXEA

(iii) the class 92s are the only locomotives certified for operating through the EuroTunnel (im not counting the french locos used prior to delivery) and with both DBS and GBRf/Europorte trying to increase the freaight hauled through the Tunnel, any operational class 92s would be kept for Channel tunnel and/or future HS1 freight.. before allocating them for domestic freight...

thats not to say that DBS and GBRf/Europorte don't or wouldn't use class 92s on domestic (UK only) freight... just that international/Tunnel freight services would take priority over domestic freight services

also remember that although GBRf/Europorte now own a good number of class 92s... (16 according to a recent copy of Todays Railways UK) only a handfull of them are currently operational, with some earmarked for use as spares, others set for future refurbishment.. and the operational ones split between Network Rail infrastructure use and EuroTunnel infrastructure use

and (iiii) while ACLG/ETL have 1x class 87 and 3x class 86s available for lease/hire, the hire of them may not be financially beneficial compared to continued class 66/67/70 use due to (for example) hire cost and driver training vs current operation, and/or due to not having the class on their relevant safety case for operation

 

[87019Chris]

well theres the FL soton to trafford park thats a 66 as its only electrified until coventry and wel thats half of its journey probably less and then there is the felixstowem to trafford park which could be transferred to electric loco haulage but that would mean another train throught the NLL or is it already routed though that way and then there is the GBRF Barking to trafford park that could be 92 operated othere than actually getting the train into the barking terminal as it is not elctirfied but a shunter could be used to allow that to be hauled by an electric loco and then there is an DBS/EWS working to somewere i think it is soton as well which is not worth an electic loco. so thats all the freight that works through and if anyone is intersted i had timings for certain workings through piccadilly

 

[cj_1985]

the other point that i dont think has been made yet...
is that the likes of intermodals from Soton... would require 1 or 2 loco changes if you want to avoid using a diesel loco... since -for example- freightliner cant very well operate an intermodal train from Soton all the way to Manchester using a class 86 or 90...

DBS however -in theory- could operate the train throughout (i dont know about whether class 92s are cleared for use on the sections of track with 3rd rail that their intermodal operates over) apart from the short stretch that a shunter (class 08 or 09) would haul the wagons due to (AIUI from an article in magazines) a weak bridge that couldnt handle a mainline loco


its all good and well wanting to cut the use of diesel locos working under the wires... but take into account that FOCs are competing against road haulage for intermodal work...

and the time that would be required for:-
(i) starting the train,
(ii) hauling it to a siding where a loco swap could take place,
(iii) uncoupling the first loco,
(iv) couple the next loco,
(v) perform break test and whatever other checks are required,
(vi) then start the train from a standing start and then carry on up the line to the terminating point
(vii) where the loco would again have to (in the example of Trafford park) uncouple and let a shunting loco haul it the rest of the way...

could be enough for a road haulier to gain some of the work that train could have been hauling.

its also worth remembering that one of the benefits of a freight train being diesel hauled rather than with an electric loco, is that the train can be more easilly diverted off the main route due to track works, failed train other reasons... than an electric loco that can only really operate (atleast for now) over certain areas due to lack of OHLE,

obviously any diversionary route could require guage clearance works for the larger containers

 

[Hydro]

the other point that i dont think has been made yet...
is that the likes of intermodals from Soton... would require 1 or 2 loco changes if you want to avoid using a diesel loco... since -for example- freightliner cant very well operate an intermodal train from Soton all the way to Manchester using a class 86 or 90...

DBS however -in theory- could operate the train throughout (i dont know about whether class 92s are cleared for use on the sections of track with 3rd rail that their intermodal operates over) apart from the short stretch that a shunter (class 08 or 09) would haul the wagons due to (AIUI from an article in magazines) a weak bridge that couldnt handle a mainline loco

I believe 92's are relatively restricted on where they can go on 750v, due to them being extraordinarily thirsty machines when it comes to the juice, especially when heavily laden. I can't tell you how much of a paper exercise this is, especally when a lot of the SWML has had a lot of power supply upgrades when the Dessies were introduced. Maybe looking at the figures, 92's could be cleared subject to the normal restrictions (IIRC, no more than one loco powering in section, and no multi working). Post GWML electrification, with a little electrification infill (Basing - Reading, and the Poplar lines where the trains head towards the WCML at Willesden), there should be no reason why a 92 couldn't, in theory pull an intermodal train from Southampton to Trafford Park.

Obviously FL have no 92's, and only DB could really benefit from this. A diesel shunter moving the boxes onto one of the reception roads where the 92 can hook on would be the most likely solution.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Let's change that then. Not enough useable electrics....

I don't buy that either, EWS (DBS) had serviceable 90s, 86s, 92s and an 87 when Railfreight was sold, so it was they who let them get in that state. When EWS, Virgin and Anglia ceased using the 86s and 87s, they were fit for service (in most cases), but no-one wanted them.

The locos were available and serviceable, so I don't even think that arguement holds much water.

The point about changing locos is a good one, but also, in the old days there were enough yards around to change locos at key points, this doesn't really apply anymore, but even if it did, freight needs to operate as quickly as it can to compete with the competition, changing locos on route only slows them down.