Disabled Tanyalee Davis - more rail travel woes.

[davart]

Why can't we make it better though?
Why can't the system actually differentiate between those who just want help with luggage and those who need assistance with ramps to get them and their mobility aid on and off the train?
Why can't lifts actually be in operation for the times they are supposed to be?
Those things can be fixed fairly easily without a huge amount of money or time spent!

I agree absolutely.

I'm not suggesting that they cannot be fixed. I'm saying that in reality, they most likely won't. Change happens slowly.

I'm quite a bit believer in 'KISS' (keep it simple stupid).

I was thinking something along the lines of existing systems. For example, the Radar key.

Could trains and platforms be fitted with and alert system based on a radar key lock? I.e. pop your key in and turn it and it pops an alert to the guard or station staff?

Sounds simple, would probably never work, but I feel that pre-booking will always create work where there is none i.e. people book but don't turn up.

It needs to be fast, on the fly real time information.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TBH it'd be just as easy to publish something stating that you should use the passcom if your booked assistance does not arrive. Most people are too "well behaved" to do it otherwise.

 

[Mag_seven]

TBH it'd be just as easy to publish something stating that you should use the passcom if your booked assistance does not arrive. Most people are too "well behaved" to do it otherwise.

But at what point do you know it hasn't arrived? I've seen the wheelchair ramp being wheeled up two sometimes three minutes after the train has arrived. Perhaps the passcom should only be activated if the train moves off?

 

[davart]

TBH it'd be just as easy to publish something stating that you should use the passcom if your booked assistance does not arrive. Most people are too "well behaved" to do it otherwise.

Fair enough, but I was suggesting moving away from pre booking and having an 'on the fly' arrangement.

In other words, have a couple of floating staff members responding to real time alerts.

I know that is probably oversimplification, but in my experience, booking systems are too static. It only takes one person to go out of sync and it falls over.

 

[EM2]

Why can't the system actually differentiate between those who just want help with luggage and those who need assistance with ramps to get them and their mobility aid on and off the train?

It does.
But it all depends on what the operator enters into the system, and that depends on what the customer tells them.
Options for assistance include:

• Own wheelchair
• Station wheelchair
• Ramp
• Transfer to seat (i.e. no ramp needed)
• Visually impaired
• Elderly
• Luggage

And combinations thereof.
There are others, but it's a few years since I've done the job, and the memory is fading a little.

 

[sarahj]

Well, here is a little example of what goes on. I was called today to tell me that a later train would have a booked assistance passenger. All I knew was they were elderly. They never showed. (trains run every 10 mins on the line, but hey ho!!)
Next a wheelchair was placed on my train by the platform staff and I took them off at their destination. It seems I was their second choice as the first train had no on board staff.

On the coastway, some folks have got used to checking out the timetable for the absence of a 1, thus showing it's a 313 and will have staff. 90% of my assistance is turn up and go, un booked. You just deal with it using either the on board ramps or platform ramps, or certain station make a call, just to speed things up. I write the trips on my workings, so i know who is go where, and the only annoying thing is 'do-gooders. You have talked to the punter, they know you will get them off, but someone sees the punter and decides to intervene. Everyone has a story of the regulars who are not as disabled as it first seems, but it's part of my job, one of the reasons we went on strike, so...

 

[pt_mad]

My mother is 84 and a Blue Badge holder and my father is registered partially sighted - Would you define that as elderly or disabled.

Yes they would certainly be passengers with a disability. One of the different headings on the assistance lists is visually impaired. So of course it's disabled assistance and could be booked as such over the phone.

I do agree level access would have gone a long way to help people. No doubt. I don't think anyone could disagree with that. A lot of wheelchair users wish to be fully independent where they can, and they wouldn't have to even request Ramps if access onto trains was level.


However, if staff numbers are already generally agreed with the DfT as part of the franchise bids and agreements, and staff can't be widely increased to match the increases in demand which the assistance services requires, then the only logical thing I can see they could do to increase staff availability would be an overhaul of the assist system, whereby the system becomes a disability assistance system, and doesn't offer a luggage assists service to passengers who currently book under the non disabled or the elderly non disabled heading.

Now it would obviously need to be looked at whether this complies with current legislation. At first glance I should think it would as you'd be offering the full assistance program to any disabled passengers as is now, but you would no longer offer the luggage assist type assistance under the program which at a guess at the stations I've had experience with form about a third of the booked assist lists on average.

This would give teams a huge boost in available staff resource from the day it was introduced. If luggage assists currently form say 30 to 40 percent of assists booked nationally, and that's a figure from the sky but let's say they do, then it's a 30 to 40 percent increase in staff availability overnight for the disabled assistance service.


Historically, I'm not sure how the assistance system became extended to allow people to book the full service for any or all elderly persons who don't classify themselves as disabled under the booking system. Because at some point in the past (experts, help please) the porters system was withdrawn. They must have had the debate back then and presumably concluded that passengers must begin to handle their own luggage unless they have a disability. And this must have been agreed with British Rail and the government.

However at some point it has become part of the modern assistance service that it's possible to book by asking for full luggage assistance under elderly at all points and connections under the same service that people with disabilities receive. Was this part of the modern assistance service from the start? Was it envisaged how much demand this would create when it became part of the offer? I suspect maybe not but it seems like demand has got so big that staff now are struggling to cope and hence frequent mistakes are being made due to multiple duties. And it's not surprising because if booked assistance if offered to anyone who calls and says elderly then that's obviously going to create huge huge numbers of uptake. The system isn't realistically going to be able to offer assistance to every elderly passenger and relies on not all passengers booking it, that some don't know they can so don't, and relies on some won't as their families chaperone or board them instead.

If they'd have just offered the assistance service as a service specifically for those with disabilities at the start, I cant help thinking the numbers would be more manageable and less mistakes would perhaps be made as staff could cope better to meet the demand, which would be significantly less.

 

[EM2]

However at some point it has become part of the modern assistance service that it's possible to book by asking for full luggage assistance under elderly at all points and connections under the same service people with disabilities receive.
...
If they'd have just offered the assistance service as a service specifically for those with disabilities at the start, I cant help thinking the numbers would be more manageable and less mistakes would perhaps be made as staff could cope better with the numbers.

But not everyone that needs luggage assistance is elderly and/or disabled. A mum with two kids and a pram, with a suitcase or two, for example.
A young lady I used to assist regularly had very weak muscles (so therefore disabled), and needed a station wheelchair and luggage assistance.

 

[davart]

As just mentioned by pt_mad and sarahj, there are those who ask for assistance eho strictly speaking don't actually need it.

Earlier in the thread, I mentioned that people should be more self sufficient and not expecting their 'ar*es to be wiped'. This wasn't a swipe at those who truly need assistance but those who claim to be disabled (and they may well be) but could actually get out of a scooter or chair if necessary.

It's nigh on impossible to determine this without offending someone but it all adds to the burden on the system.

I think assistance should purely be available for those who absolutely cannot stand up/walk.

Again, it's a hard stance but anyone who can manage without assistance ought to.

Apologies to anyone who things this is Draconian, but the essential thing is that those who need the assistance stand the best chance of receiving it.

 

[EM2]

...those who claim to be disabled (and they may well be) but could actually get out of a scooter or chair if necessary.

That still doesn't mean that they are able to climb up into a train, especially with a large platform gap, and are steady enough on their feet to walk to a seat. Disability does not mean 'absolutely reliant on a wheelchair for everything'.

 

[pt_mad]

It does.
But it all depends on what the operator enters into the system, and that depends on what the customer tells them.
Options for assistance include:

• Own wheelchair
• Station wheelchair
• Ramp
• Transfer to seat (i.e. no ramp needed)
• Visually impaired
• Elderly
• Luggage

And combinations thereof.
There are others, but it's a few years since I've done the job, and the memory is fading a little.

Exactly. Two categories on that list are non disabled passengers. 'Elderly', and 'luggage'. Question is at what age is someone elderly, and how many elderly travelers travel each day? With an ageing population the number of passengers, say over 65 must be huge. And if the assistance system is well publisized, then how would the system ever cope if all of them decided to take up their right and book that assistance? The only reason the system doesn't burst through demand is because not everyone over 65 who travels either wants assistance or realises they can have it.

Prob passengers in their 50s could book under elderly as elderly is whatever age a person defines as elderly and date of births aren't part of the booking process from what I understand.

 

[davart]

That still doesn't mean that they are able to climb up into a train, especially with a large platform gap, and are steady enough on their feet to walk to a seat. Disability does not mean 'absolutely reliant on a wheelchair for everything'.

No, you're absolutely correct. As I said, it's nigh on impossible to determine this.

I think what I'm trying to articulate, is that those who shall we say 'milk the system', take it upon themselves to stop doing so.

I also acknowledge that the reverse happens. There are stubborn elderly people who absolutely do not want assistance, who really ought to accept help.

For context, as I'm sure many of you may think I'm a bit harsh, I've worked in the ambulance service, in a patient transport role. Pretty much all I did was ferry pts. about all day. Most were a joy to work with. There were one or two that would happily let you struggle with a wheel on a steep gradient than walk down the ramp and then sit down on the chair. Usually, those people were the ones for whom nothing was good enough etc.

Despite that, it was on the whole fairly rewarding. The hours and pay were the reason I left.

 

[EM2]

Exactly. Two categories on that list are non disabled passengers. 'Elderly', and 'luggage'.

Not necessarily. Disabled customers can be elderly and can have luggage, so the options need to be there. The service is 'passenger assistance', not 'disabled assistance'. I always have, and always will, offer assistance to anyone that says they need it.

 

[EM2]

...those who shall we say 'milk the system'...

I have to be honest, I can't remember a single customer that did.
In fact, I remember one instance where I remarked to a customer (who appeared young, able-bodied and only had a medium-sized case) that assistance was only meant for those that had mobility issues, whereupon they flashed their disabled railcard at me, and reeled off a list of the conditions of that they suffered from. Having been suitably chastised, I've never done that again!

 

[davart]

I have to be honest, I can't remember a single customer that did.
In fact, I remember one instance where I remarked to a customer (who appeared young, able-bodied and only had a medium-sized case) that assistance was only meant for those that had mobility issues, whereupon they flashed their disabled railcard at me, and reeled off a list of the conditions of that they suffered from. Having been suitably chastised, I've never done that again!

Absolutely, I can imagine!

As I said, most people are generally nice. Going back to the incident with the scooter, and the video recording being published etc. the reality is that most people in customer service roles do the best they can within the limits of the system.

As mentioned right at the start, perhaps then, it really is 'give and take'? Accept that things will never be perfect. Appreciate the help that is available but accept that staff are only human...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Talking of porters, I wonder if the Excess Baggage Co has considered the idea of offering them on a chargeable basis?

Mind you, the trolley bag has rendered most of the use cases for them unnecessary.

 

[TPO]

....... Historically, I'm not sure how the assistance system became extended to allow people to book the full service for any or all elderly persons who don't classify themselves as disabled under the booking system. Because at some point in the past (experts, help please) the porters system was withdrawn. They must have had the debate back then and presumably concluded that passengers must begin to handle their own luggage unless they have a disability. And this must have been agreed with British Rail and the government.

I think this is a useful reminder...... once upon a time there was a different way of doing this. No doubt it had problems too as nothing is ever perfect, we must analyse critically not use rose-tinted glasses...... but surely we can learn something from the bits that DID work?

There's sometimes a bit of "wrong end of the telescope" in specifics like this. Rather than focus on helping specific people some of the time, maybe the society needs to have a long hard look at what we expect from a public transport system. Do we want a system that always is able to help people who need it with luggage, getting on and off the train etc..... (like porters did) or do we want a stripped down commuter-focused service which only really works for people who are unencumbered, fit and able?

The way this debate is handled is important. We have the NHS because (almost) everyone recognises that one day they too may be suddenly sick and need medical care. However, for other things like this, often the "unencumbered, fit and able" struggle to envisage a situation where they may need support from a fellow human being just to do "normal" stuff, so they can be very judgemental and/or reluctant to pay the costs as they are OK after all. Even walking up/down stairs can become suddenly difficult e.g. I fell over my cat on the stairs about 18 months ago and went from cycling to work every day to struggling to walk for several months- and (even with my little wheelie bag) I was oh, so glad of footbridges with lifts...... (often, "accessability" improvements are helpful a whole lot more people than those they are officially put in for!).

As a society, do we want to make sure that ALL people can access stuff? Remember, one day you may suddenly be unable to drive due to illness, struggle with mobility from something that is not your fault, could not have been avoided/predicted etc. Should railways be (like the NHS) part of that basic infrastructure to help everyone get access to stuff (transport, housing, education etc) that lets them be an equally valued member of society?

Or is society only for the able-bodied who can always cope on their own (personally, I suggest that "cope on their own" is a myth because in the modern world, we are all interdependent and we all need help at some point in our lives)

What is more costly: employing people usefully to staff stations to help others, or paying them benefits to do nothing (or top up a gig economy slave wage) whilst cutting services to the bone? I suggest that in the latter scenario, both the person without employment and the people who they could have helped will suffer, we're paying the money out anyway so lets make it a win-win.

Funny thing, we have committed billions to a pointless renewal to replace a functioning nuclear defence system (I know others will disagree, not trying to be political just make the point about priorities)- in the end it's all down to priorities, and what sort of society we want to live in.

Sorry if that sounds radical, although I don't think it is- rather it's reflecting on some lessons from the past 60-70 years and trying to get out of the detail and ask "why".

TPO.

 

[Class 170101]

The lady in question has just been interviewed on BBC's Look East.

 

[Bromley boy]

The lady in question has just been interviewed on BBC's Look East.

She’s everywhere!

Call me a cynic but I can’t help but think this is as much to enhance her own profile as it is to improve disabled access.

 

[Class 170101]

She’s everywhere!

Call me a cynic but I can’t help but think this is as much to enhance her own profile as it is to improve disabled access.

I think they said she was local to the area as only GWR and LNER got lambasted this time.

 

[Bromley boy]

My personal view (which may be controversial) is that this obsession with mobility access comes at the expense of other disabilities: disabilities which, while not linked to mobility, may be even more fundamental: people lower down the autistic spectrum for one:

Disability takes many forms but, in this country, is stereotyped into requiring a wheelchair: so that’s where the money is spent.

For all the millions being spent on improving wheelchair accessibility, there’s bugger all on offer for autistics - and certainly no “celebrities” promoting their cause on the news.

 

[bnm]

For all the millions being spent on improving wheelchair accessibility, there’s bugger all on offer for autistics - and certainly no “celebrities” promoting their cause on the news.

The news reports the incidents. A byproduct of that is raised awareness. If there were an incident of an autistic celebrity being as shabbily treated as Tanyalee Davis then it may well make the news. Allowing them to highlight the problems those on the spectrum face in everyday life.

Many celebrities support the UK's National Autistic Society, including some on the spectrum.

 

[Bromley boy]

The news reports the incidents. A byproduct of that is raised awareness. If there were an incident of an autistic celebrity being as shabbily treated as Tanyalee Davis then it may well make the news.

The news reports what it wants to report - usually fashionable causes. Mobility is fashionable, autism, and other disabilities, far less so.

An autistic celebrity is unlikely to happen, for obvious reasons. Autistic people are treated shabbily every day and there is absolutely b*gger all redress for them. They tend not to go swanning around the world as comedians and doing radio interviews.

If you can see, walk and talk, you’re basically invisible as far as disabilities go. Never mind that you might be far worse off than if you were “normal” but confined to a wheelchair.

Many celebrities support the UK's National Autistic Society, including some on the spectrum.

I’ve certainly never seen a thread on here with an OP declaring a guard should be sacked due to how he treated an autistic individual (that includes the thread about stroppy parents being rude to train staff and bringing their daughter’s Aspergers up, as an irrelevant diversion, as it turned out).

I’m not dismissing accessibility as an issue, but there is a severe lack of balance in how disabilities are viewed (or simply not viewed at all).

I can assure you my family and I would be eternity grateful if my (quite severely) autistic brother’s biggest issue was getting level access to a train.

Tanyalee Davis has raised her own profile, but has achieved sweet FA for him.

 

[bnm]

An autistic celebrity is unlikely to happen,

Can you define unlikely?

 

[maire23]

Without assistance, I could not travel.
I’m not a full time wheelchair user, but I do use one on occasion, and I use crutches permanently because of a very painful and debilitating condition. My balance also isn’t great and I’m prone to falling, I especially struggle to manoeuvre myself up train steps without a ramp. As I’ve previously mentioned, I’ve fallen and hurt myself in the past when I’ve tried to negotiate off a train without the help of a ramp; a twisted ankle might be mildly irritating to some people but to me with a chronic pain condition it was excruciating.
I do get some assumptions that I’m ‘temporarily incapacitated’ but in fact I will be on crutches for life as I’m only going to get worse. I require a ramp always and often help with my case when travelling- I can walk and am not refusing to walk, I just need a bit of help to get me on/off the train because otherwise I’m at massive risk of having a nasty accident.
I agree that there are most definitely those who milk the system but I think it’s a little bit harsh saying that those people who may have a visible disability and are clearly struggling but don’t want to use a wheelchair shouldn’t be deserving of help. I hate using a wheelchair simply because I’m totally reliant on someone else to push me- I’ve got a slowly crumbling shoulder which means I physically cannot push myself and I virtually always travel alone anyway so i rarely use one.

 

[EM2]

An autistic celebrity is unlikely to happen, for obvious reasons. Autistic people are treated shabbily every day and there is absolutely b*gger all redress for them. They tend not to go swanning around the world as comedians and doing radio interviews.

Darryl Hannah and Courtney Love have Autistic Spectrum Disorder.
Dan Aykroyd, Stanley Kubrick, Paddy Considine, Sir Anthony Hopkins, Susan Boyle, Ladyhawke (singer), Guy Martin, Chris Packham, Gary Numan and Anne Hegarty (from ITV's 'The Chase') have Asperger's Syndrome.

 

[davart]

Without assistance, I could not travel.
I’m not a full time wheelchair user, but I do use one on occasion, and I use crutches permanently because of a very painful and debilitating condition. My balance also isn’t great and I’m prone to falling, I especially struggle to manoeuvre myself up train steps without a ramp. As I’ve previously mentioned, I’ve fallen and hurt myself in the past when I’ve tried to negotiate off a train without the help of a ramp; a twisted ankle might be mildly irritating to some people but to me with a chronic pain condition it was excruciating.
I do get some assumptions that I’m ‘temporarily incapacitated’ but in fact I will be on crutches for life as I’m only going to get worse. I require a ramp always and often help with my case when travelling- I can walk and am not refusing to walk, I just need a bit of help to get me on/off the train because otherwise I’m at massive risk of having a nasty accident.
I agree that there are most definitely those who milk the system but I think it’s a little bit harsh saying that those people who may have a visible disability and are clearly struggling but don’t want to use a wheelchair shouldn’t be deserving of help. I hate using a wheelchair simply because I’m totally reliant on someone else to push me- I’ve got a slowly crumbling shoulder which means I physically cannot push myself and I virtually always travel alone anyway so i rarely use one.

Interesting situation.

What you could really do with is a couple of things:

Ideally trains could do with an automated ramp than can slide and pivot to meet the platform.

Secondly, there are lightweight foldable wheelchairs that can be stowed (ambulances have these along with carry chairs for negotiating terrain unsuitable for wheels).

You'd obviously need assistance and this would take seconds if a fellow traveller helped. Not sure how the train company would view assistance from a member of the public!

The automatic ramp isn't as complicated as it might sound, perhaps designating one door each side to such use.

The reverse idea would be to have a ramp installed on each platform that can meet the train. Not unlike a loading bay ramp for lorries. This would need some alignment marks for it to work.

Simple ideas that in practice may not work

 

[Robsignals]

I think what I'm trying to articulate, is that those who shall we say 'milk the system', take it upon themselves to stop doing so.

Meaning they will stop travelling by train. Providing assistance to anyone who can't manage otherwise is a necessary cost of doing business if the industry wants their custom.

 

[bnm]

Darryl Hannah and Courtney Love have Autistic Spectrum Disorder.
Dan Aykroyd, Stanley Kubrick, Paddy Considine, Sir Anthony Hopkins, Susan Boyle, Ladyhawke (singer), Guy Martin, Chris Packham, Gary Numan and Anne Hegarty (from ITV's 'The Chase') have Asperger's Syndrome.

Thanks for that list. Details are easily found with a Google of "autistic celebrities". Something @Bromley boy could easily have done himself to fact check his opinion before making it.

 

[whhistle]

I don't say it like that. If you chose to read it like that there's not much I can do.

Well... there is.
Explain yourself better next time.