Discretion when railcard is forgotten

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cuccir

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Yes, but imagine how much easier it would be for a guard/RPI to point out the rules by saying 'Can you read that on your ticket sir/madam?' - which will in turn stop all the other passengers around taking sides, often against the evil railway.

It's a case of 'every little helps'.
I agree with this.

I'm still a 16-25 railcard user, so am too young to remember, but am I correct in thinking that railcard tickets used to be different colours? That would be another way of differentiating them from undiscounted tickets, though probably not practical in an area of TVMs.

I think in general that guards are right to not use discretion in these circumstances, not least because these railcards are often held for years - 9 for a 16-25, and longer for a senior. If you get charged full fare the first time you forget it, you're not going to forget it again.

I'd like to see more effort be put into a system that allows people to reclaim fares if they can return to a ticket office with their railcard. I realise that there are obstacles to this, and these are reasonable to raise. Equally, I don't think it's impossible with a bit of effort. However, I don't think there's any money in it for the TOCs so don't really see the incentive for them to do so!
 
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jon0844

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I think that given how many otherwise honest people will try things on, the railway does need to show less discretion in a lot of cases.

If it means that you only show discretion if someone claims to have lost their railcard, or had it stolen, then you can still hit them with a full price ticket but then give a refund if (and only if) they produce the relevant crime reference number later on.

I'm not sure many would chance getting loads of crime reference numbers if they didn't even have a railcard in the first place (and they'd be done for fraud if they did).

Giving a refund later just encourages people to try it on - perhaps giving their ticket to someone with a railcard, and excessing to the normal price just encourages everyone to get a discounted fare and pay the difference only when caught.

By passing on the problem to the passenger to deal with after, it also speeds things up for the staff on the train who can quickly get on to dealing with the next person who will have another sob story or excuse. Staff shouldn't need to be forced to make a decision, or be seen to favour some people over others.
 

island

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I'm still a 16-25 railcard user, so am too young to remember, but am I correct in thinking that railcard tickets used to be different colours? That would be another way of differentiating them from undiscounted tickets, though probably not practical in an area of TVMs.
This is done on Irish Rail for tickets issued from booking offices and on-train. Can't viably be done on TVMs as it's a bit tricky to have different kinds of ticket stock.
 

aformeruser

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She took there names and said she was going to report them.
It'd be funny if she got a letter back saying:

Dear Madam,

I am very sorry to hear about the incident that you described. I have looked in to it and agree that the inspectors you encountered did not act correctly. To correct this I have enclosed a penalty fares notice, which the inspectors should have issued you with on the train. I can't apologise enough for this not already being issued.

Please feel free to report any further issues you have with ticket inspectors.
 
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DownSouth

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The Conditions of Issue on the Railcard leaflets all state that you have to show your Railcard when buying and using tickets, and signing the Application Form indicates that you agree to said Conditions...Not that anyone reads such things before signing, of course!

Cheers,

Barry
A UK-based gaming software retailer determined it was about 12% who do. :D
Well I've had my railcard ready four times now, but the ticket inspector only seems interested in my ticket, sometimes not even checking the reservation to make sure I'm on the right train.

Make an old woman happy and ask to see her senior railcard! :lol:
Reminds me of the time I saw an older lady dutifully show her pension concession card (with photo ID) on a tram, to which the conductor picked it up and examined it closely, looking back and forward between her and the card. After a few seconds the conductor asked "is this your grandmother's card you're borrowing today" at which she and everyone in that end of the tram roared with laughter. :lol:
 

All Line Rover

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It'd be funny if she got a letter back saying:

Dear Madam,

I am very sorry to hear about the incident that you described. I have looked in to it and agree that the inspectors you encountered did not act correctly. To correct this I have enclosed a penalty fares notice, which the inspectors should have issued you with on the train. I can apologise enough for this not already being issued.

Please feel free to report any further issues you have with ticket inspectors.
:lol:

If only TOC's would do that! Unfortunately, the RPI would probably get "cautioned" for being so lenient.
 

SS4

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Yes, but imagine how much easier it would be for a guard/RPI to point out the rules by saying 'Can you read that on your ticket sir/madam?' - which will in turn stop all the other passengers around taking sides, often against the evil railway.

It's a case of 'every little helps'.
This post shows that there are a certain breed of people to whom it wouldn't matter in the slightest and it would still be taking sides against the evil railway. How many times has someone defended their opinion against all logic, reason and evidence?

You could put

"VALID ONLY WITH 16-25 RAILCARD"

and someone would argue it's still valid without! (Evidently change the type of railcard where appropriate)


To paraphrase a quote I saw somewhere (can't for the life of me remember where - probably reddit)

Arguing with certain passengers is like playing chess with a pigeon.

You could be the greatest player in the world, but the pigeon will still knock over all the pieces, **** on the board and strut around triumphantly.
One can either have the rules applied consistently or allow staff discretion - never both
 

Solent&Wessex

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In my mind the RPI's were a credit to the company they sold the women a non discounted single ticket, & clearly advised her if she could find her railcard, she could pop into a ticket office and get a refund fair enough.
Which of course is wrong, she can't:

The Manual said:
If a Railcard cannot be produced at the time of purchase or at any ticket examination then the full undiscounted fare will be payable as if no ticket or Railcard were held.

Subsequently, refunds must not be given on these undiscounted tickets but may be given on the unused part of the discounted ticket(s) – less the refund administration fee. No further or subsequent claims for refunds may be entertained.
She took there names and said she was going to report them.
Ah, the old "I want your names" plan. Hoping that by taking their names, and threatening to report them, they'll be so scared of being reported to the manager that they will let her off. I'm always amazed I'm still in a job, judging by what I'm threatened with by passengers I should be disciplined & sacked about 10 times a week.

if she honestly had a Network Railcard she would be at no loss other than the short time to get a refund at the ticket office.
She would not be entitled to a refund on the new ticket she purchased. Only on part of the original discounted ticket, less a fee. Which often works out as not very much at all.
 

Ferret

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Ah, you get that too kwvr! Seems to be the standard tactic for people who have been caught in the wrong. As though it is supposed to intimidate us into dropping the matter? Well, wrong - far more likely to make me go the whole hog and write that TIR.
 

island

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Ah, you get that too kwvr! Seems to be the standard tactic for people who have been caught in the wrong. As though it is supposed to intimidate us into dropping the matter? Well, wrong - far more likely to make me go the whole hog and write that TIR.
I'm sure I remember one of our resident guards being videoed by such a passenger on his phone while charging the passenger a new SSS, and said "if you submit that to my employer, I'll get in trouble" "Good" "No, you don't understand. I should be charging you an SOS. I'll get in trouble for not charging you enough."
 

barrykas

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Ah, you get that too kwvr! Seems to be the standard tactic for people who have been caught in the wrong. As though it is supposed to intimidate us into dropping the matter? Well, wrong - far more likely to make me go the whole hog and write that TIR.
MG11 over my way, as the majority of our Revenue Protection are suitably trained to complete same. <D

Having said that, the two pads are virtually identical bar the colour and prefix.

Cheers,

Barry
 

RPI

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Some of the rudest passengers are seniors, some of them get so arsey when you simply ask to see their railcard yet most Y-P railcard holders have usually got them out ready without you even having to ask but it is true that there are times that SNR's probably are "let off" easier than Y-P's, personally I think you have to judge each situation differently, a little old granny who may not have her marbles intact is more likely to honestly forget to renew her railcard when you could say that a student should "know better", I think the action you take afterwards varies, a SNR is more likely to just get excessed where a Y-P may get stung for an SOS.
 
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