Discussion on Islamophobia and racism

[TheKnightWho]

Many other religions have holy books which promote misogyny, homophobia, violence etc, and I condemn those religions too.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Qur'an is the final, perfect word of God. Mohammed was the final prophet. Allah is not going to send anyone else down to Earth to say "Actually, the Qur'an was wrong. Homosexuality is fine and women are equal to men", is he?

I'll be honest, that's a problem. You're always going to get people who say "If the Qur'an is the word of God, and God is perfect, shouldn't we read all of the verses and not just cherry-pick the ones we like?". Unfortunately, that impedes any progress being made away from the 7th Century views expressed in your holy book.

Genuine question: do you know anything about theology? As this kind of criticism can be levelled at Christians, and yet somehow most theologists - who spend their lives studying this stuff I might add - don't say we should interpret the Bible literally.

Because I'm really not sure what your point is actually trying to demonstrate. Is it that they're not real Muslims if they don't interpret the Quran literally?

 

[DarloRich]

Genuine question: do you know anything about theology? As this kind of criticism can be levelled at Christians, and yet somehow most theologists - who spend their lives studying this stuff I might add - don't say we should interpret the Bible literally.

Because I'm really not sure what your point is actually trying to demonstrate. Is it that they're not real Muslims if they don't interpret the Quran literally?

if i may: The point seems to be that certain groups take a very rigid interpretation of the Koran to justify appalling violence and savagery. CLEARLY that doesn't apply to all Muslims although some clearly do believe it enough to travel to Syria/Libya/Iraq and fight on that basis and/or return thier views to Europe.

Christians have as bad a history of using thier holy text to justify slaughter and savagery!

Bloody religions!

 

[TheKnightWho]

if i may: The point seems to be that certain groups take a very rigid interpretation of the Koran to justify appalling violence and savagery. CLEARLY that doesn't apply to all Muslims although some clearly do believe it enough to travel to Syria/Libya/Iraq and fight on that basis and/or return thier views to Europe.

Christians have as bad a history of using thier holy text to justify slaughter and savagery!

Bloody religions!

Don't get me wrong - I'm well aware. The issue I'm taking is not with genuine criticism of extremists or fundamentalists!

It's the fact that Muslims get singled out and demonised, despite the vast majority not being anything like that. Gutfright seems to have almost a parody's idea of what Muslims actually are...

 

[Gutfright]

Genuine question: do you know anything about theology? As this kind of criticism can be levelled at Christians, and yet somehow most theologists - who spend their lives studying this stuff I might add - don't say we should interpret the Bible literally.

Because I'm really not sure what your point is actually trying to demonstrate. Is it that they're not real Muslims if they don't interpret the Quran literally?

One problem with this is that some verses are almost impossible not to take literally without some Olympic-level mental gymnastics. Take Qur'an 4:34 as just one example:

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

How is it possible to convince yourself that that verse is not a blatant and grotesque endorsement of patriarchy? You can try to convince people that it's an allegory. Men are in charge of women actually means Men are equal to women. There are always going to be people who say "Stop being silly, TheKnightWho, Men are in charge of women clearly means Men are in charge of women".

How do you respond to such people?

Gutfright seems to have almost a parody's idea of what Muslims actually are...

You know what would make this claim more believable? Evidence.

Why not copy all the statements I've made about Muslims, and paste them into your reply to this comment?

 

[TheKnightWho]

One problem with this is that some verses are almost impossible not to take literally without some Olympic-level mental gymnastics. Take Qur'an 4:34 as just one example:

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

How is it possible to convince yourself that that verse is not a blatant and grotesque endorsement of patriarchy? You can try to convince people that it's an allegory. Men are in charge of women actually means Men are equal to women. There are always going to be people who say "Stop being silly, TheKnightWho, Men are in charge of women clearly means Men are in charge of women".

How do you respond to such people?

This is becoming laughable. You keep pushing the same argument time and time again, and it appears without even reading what I'm saying in reply. How difficult is it to understand that the vast majority of Muslims don't take this stuff literally, or incorporate it into their every day lives?

I can only conclude that you're being wilfully ignorant.

 

[Gutfright]

This is becoming laughable. You keep pushing the same argument time and time again, and it appears without even reading what I'm saying in reply. How difficult is it to understand that the vast majority of Muslims don't take this stuff literally, or incorporate it into their every day lives?

I can only conclude that you're being wilfully ignorant.

Can you explain the non-literal interpretation of

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

that "the vast majority of Muslims" adopt? How do they convince themselves that verse is not God's clear endorsement of patriarchy?

I'm giving you the opportunity to educate me here. Refusing to answer the question is going to do absolutely nothing to reduce Islamophobia and bigotry In fact, any bigots and Islamophobes who may be reading this thread would probably take your repeated refusal to answer this question as a sign that you have no defence whatsoever for that verse, and could even conclude that it's okay to criticise the Qur'an.

 

[AlterEgo]

Heh.

Where to start?

Have a look at Leviticus. Or Judges. Are all Christians that bigoted?

Why is it so hard to believe that Muslims are incapable of reasonably interpreting an ancient text?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Can you explain the non-literal interpretation of

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

that "the vast majority of Muslims" adopt? How do they convince themselves that verse is not God's clear endorsement of patriarchy?

I'm giving you the opportunity to educate me here. Refusing to answer the question is going to do absolutely nothing to reduce Islamophobia and bigotry In fact, any bigots and Islamophobes who may be reading this thread would probably take your repeated refusal to answer this question as a sign that you have no defence whatsoever for that verse, and could even conclude that it's okay to criticise the Qur'an.

I'm not refusing to answer - I'm explaining why it's a ridiculous question in the first place. The fact that you keep ignoring that and banging on, whilst assuming most Muslims take a fundamentalist attitude, is the very problem.

As I said before, I can only assume you're wilfully ignorant. For someone who is so convinced of their own intelligence, you really aren't very good at introspecting on the problems with your own assumptions...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Heh.

Where to start?

Have a look at Leviticus. Or Judges. Are all Christians that bigoted?

Why is it so hard to believe that Muslims are incapable of reasonably interpreting an ancient text?

Because, to Gutfright, the fact that it's the "perfect word of God" apparently means it must be taken literally, despite the Bible saying similar such things...

 

[Gutfright]

I think it depends. An acquaintance of mine from uni lost his wife, and was badly injured himself, in one of the big ISIS gun attacks a couple of years ago, and he's even more firmly against both the death penalty and racism against Islamic people.

Islam is not a race.

Mod note - Split from this thread

 

[TheKnightWho]

Islam is not a race.

I do not understand comments like these. I'm not sure anything could be less relevant to the point being made.

Is irrational bigotry somehow better because it's against someone's religion and not someone's race, despite the fact that racism and Islamphobia are extremely tied together due to the fact that the vast majority of Muslims in this country are Middle-Eastern and associated with Arabs?

 

[Gutfright]

I do not understand comments like these.

Do you think Islam is a race?

No, you don't? Then not only do you understand the statement, you agree with it.

Is irrational bigotry somehow better because it's against someone's religion and not someone's race?

Criticising someone because their skin is a certain colour is indeed irrational bigotry, because they can't do anything about the skin colour they were born with.

Criticising someone who chooses to participate in a fundamentally violent, hateful, homophobic and misogynistic religion is not only rational, it is the moral thing to do.

 

[TheKnightWho]

Do you think Islam is a race?

No, you don't? Then not only do you understand the statement, you agree with it.

Nice way of taking things out of context. The point I was making seems to have flown over your head.

Criticising someone because their skin is a certain colour is indeed irrational bigotry, because they can't do anything about the skin colour they were born with.

Criticising someone who chooses to participate in a fundamentally violent, hateful, homophobic and misogynistic religion is not only rational, it is the moral thing to do.

Ah yes - the old "they chose to do it therefore it's fine to discriminate against them" argument.

a) People don't choose their religion. They grow up with it. This is as absurd as saying people choose their own culture.

b) I don't see how this is relevant. Why is it ok to be an irrational bigot against someone's life choice rather than something they couldn't choose? Islamohpobia does not cover legitimate criticism of some strands of Islam, but it most certainly does cover stereotyping, assumptions and the irrational basis on which they're founded. Not all Muslims are misogynstic, but it's quite evident you seem to think they are...

It's also rather telling that you ignored the whole point about Islam and Arabs being intrinsically tied together in hate crimes.

 

[Gutfright]

Ah yes - the old "they chose to do it therefore it's fine to discriminate against them" argument.

People should be held accountable for the choices they make.

Antisemitism, for example, is not justified by saying "Hitler's Mein Kampf said Jews are bad" nor should it be justifiable by saying "The Qur'an says Jews are bad".

People don't choose their religion. They grow up with it. This is as absurd as saying people choose their own culture.

Religion is not genetic. People can, and should, choose to leave their religion. It happens every day.

Obviously, there are reasons that Islam is more difficult to leave than other less violent religions. As a society we should do everything we can to encourage people to renounce Islam, and we should support and protect those who do.

Not all Muslims are misogynstic, but it's quite evident you seem to think they are...

Of course, #NotallMuslims, only those who believe that the Qur'an is the perfect and unchangeable word of God...

Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad).

Women who are divorced shall wait, keeping themselves apart, three (monthly) courses. And it is not lawful for them that they should conceal that which Allah hath created in their wombs if they are believers in Allah and the Last Day. And their husbands would do better to take them back in that case if they desire a reconciliation. And they (women) have rights similar to those (of men) over them in kindness, and men are a degree above them. Allah is Mighty, Wise

O ye who believe! When ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing. Let a scribe record it in writing between you (in terms of) equity. No scribe should refuse to write as Allah hath taught him, so let him write, and let him who incurreth the debt dictate, and let him observe his duty to Allah his Lord, and diminish naught thereof. But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak, or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate in (terms of) equity. And call two witness from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not at hand, then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if one erreth (though forgetfulness) the other will remember. And the witnesses must not refuse when they are summoned. Be no averse to writing down (the contract) whether it be small or great, with (record of) the term thereof. That is more equitable in the sight of Allah and more sure for testimony, and the best way of avoiding doubt between you; save only in the case when it is actual merchandise which ye transfer among yourselves from hand to hand. In that case it is no sin for you if ye write it not. And have witnesses when ye sell to one another, and let no harm be done to scribe or witness. If ye do (harm to them) lo! it is a sin in you. Observe your duty to Allah. Allah is teaching you. And Allah is knower of all things.

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

And there's plenty more misogyny where that came from. I suppose the Qur'an is unIslamic, is it? :roll:

 

[TheKnightWho]

People should be held accountable for the choices they make.

Antisemitism, for example, is not justified by saying "Hitler's Mein Kampf said Jews are bad" nor should it be justifiable by saying "The Qur'an says Jews are bad".

Good to see you ignoring half of my point. You can leave your own culture, can't you? Except I'm sure you can see what a ridiculous argument this is. It has double-standard written all over it.

Religion is not genetic. People can, and should, choose to leave their religion. It happens every day.

Obviously, there are reasons that Islam is more difficult to leave than other less violent religions. As a society we should do everything we can to encourage people to renounce Islam, and we should support and protect those who do.

Ah yes, please tell me more about how violent mainstream Islam is given the multiple times rise in hate crimes against Muslims since we voted Brexit. :roll: Should we condemn Christianity, or British culture or whatever? If not, why tar all Muslims with the same brush for the crimes of a few?

Could it possibly be that in your "rational" thinking you never actually considered your own double-standards?

This has "academic" Islamophobia written all over it: a "reasonable" argument with plenty of generalisations and little understanding of mainstream Islam, attempting to justify discrimination. There's a long history of this, from black people in America, to mentally ill people, to women, to gay people etc. Trying to rationalise bigotry has a long history.

Of course, #NotallMuslims, only those who believe that the Qur'an is the perfect and unchangeable word of God...









And there's plenty more misogyny where that came from. I suppose the Qur'an is unIslamic, is it? :roll:

Should I get out some Bible quotes?

 

[Gutfright]

Good to see you ignoring half of my point. You can leave your own culture, can't you? Except I'm sure you can see what a ridiculous argument this is. It has double-standard written all over it.

I can pick and choose whichever cultural practices I want to adopt. Nobody is forcing me to accept my culture with the threat of eternal torture.

To be a Muslim, by contrast, one has to accept that the Qur'an is perfect and cannot be changed. Accepting the Qur'an means accepting that obedience to a violent, hateful, genocidal, homophobic, misogynistic, antisemitic God is the highest virtue.

The religion of Islam does not permit the belief that women and men should be treated equally, because accepting that belief would necessarily mean accepting that the Qur'an is flawed.

Ah yes, please tell me more about how violent mainstream Islam is given the multiple times rise in hate crimes against Muslims since we voted Brexit. :roll:

There have been more reports of hate crimes against Muslims recently, therefore Islam is not violent?

Do you want to maybe think that through a little more?

Should we condemn Christianity,

Yes.

or British culture or whatever?

If you want.

This has "academic" Islamophobia written all over it: a "reasonable" argument with plenty of generalisations and little understanding of mainstream Islam,

Here are the generalisations I've made. As someone who clearly has an in-depth knowledge of the Qur'an and the hadith, perhaps you can tell me which ones are flawed...?

1) Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the perfect and unchangeable word of God.

2) The Qur'an contains verses which are violent, antisemitic, homophobic and misogynistic

Should I get out some Bible quotes?

It's a free country. Knock yourself out.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I can pick and choose whichever cultural practices I want to adopt. Nobody is forcing me to accept my culture with the threat of eternal torture.

Advertising practices and psychology would disagree with you, unfortunately. I think I'll take science and billions of pounds of investment over your self-assurance.

To be a Muslim, by contrast, one has to accept that the Qur'an is perfect and cannot be changed. Accepting the Qur'an means accepting that obedience to a violent, hateful, genocidal, homophobic, misogynistic, antisemitic God is the highest virtue.

No, that's to be Gutfright's stereotype of a Muslim that he wished they all were. I really do despair that you are seemingly this wilfully ignorant of the practices of the vast majority of Muslims in this country.

The religion of Islam does not permit the belief that women and men should be treated equally, because accepting that belief would necessarily mean accepting that the Qur'an is flawed.

Please, tell me more about the practices that many of my friends follow. I'm sure the women would love to hear your patronising spiel.

No-one is saying that many practices of Islam are without their problems. However, they're considerably more nuanced and varied than what you're making out, despite your apparent willingness to opine as some kind of expert on the topic.

There have been more reports of hate crimes against Muslims recently, therefore Islam is not violent?

Do you want to maybe think that through a little more?

Point spectacularly missed. It was about the double-standard applied to Muslims that commit terrorist attacks ("Islam is a violent religion" etc.) versus that applied to those who commit hate crime against them ("a small minroity" etc.)

Yes.



If you want.

Then it would be good to see you universally condemning them in the same capacity you do Muslims and Islam then. Any problems with that? Because currently you've been rather focused in your criticism, and I've never see you do it anywhere on the forum yet.

Here are the generalisations I've made. As someone who clearly has an in-depth knowledge of the Qur'an and the hadith, perhaps you can tell me which ones are flawed...?

1) Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the perfect and unchangeable word of God.

2) The Qur'an contains verses which are violent, antisemitic, homophobic and misogynistic

1) The vast majority of Muslims, especially in this country, do not interpret the Quran literally. This would be akin to saying that the vast majority of Christians are the Westboro Baptist Church. I understand that you want to play wordgames by using vague terms like "perfect and unchangeable word of God", but unfortunately such terms have many, many interpretations. If you actually spoke to any Muslims about their religion you might know this.

2) As does the Bible, and the holy texts of every religion. Yet you're focusing your criticism in one area, and seem extremely sensitive to anyone criticising your strong condemnation of Islam, seemingly brought out over something as little as someone saying that Muslims are victims of racism. If I had to put my money on where the irrational bigotry lay... Especially given you seem to be generalising about all Muslims.

Didn't you repeatedly and aggressively condemn those who did this about Brexiters? Why is it always those who are most willing to condemn who are always the most sensitive?

 

[Gutfright]

Advertising practices and psychology would disagree with you, unfortunately. I think I'll take science and billions of pounds of investment over your self-assurance.

Does "science" say that I'm literally powerless to choose to do something -anything- that goes against British culture?

In your expert opinion, does "science" say that no matter how many competing viewpoints a person is exposed to, no matter how many different cultures they experience, people are hardwired into accepting the culture they grew up with and can never, ever change?

No, that's to be Gutfright's stereotype of a Muslim that he wished they all were.

It's not how I wish Muslims were. I really, really wish that Muslims didn't revere the Qur'an. I wish that they didn't think that the Qur'an was the word of God. I wish that they didn't think that they would be punished for all eternity if they didn't follow the Qur'an.

The world would be a much better place if any of those things were true.

I really do despair that you are seemingly this wilfully ignorant of the practices of the vast majority of Muslims in this country.

What practices are these, and why do you think they justify following the teachings of a hateful, violent and intolerant book?

Would neo-Nazis be justified in following the teachings of Mein Kampf if they adopted similar practices?

I'm sure the women would love to hear your patronising spiel.

Speaking on behalf of women and accusing me of being patronising in the same sentence? Well done!

1) The vast majority of Muslims, especially in this country, do not interpret the Quran literally. This would be akin to saying that the vast majority of Christians are the Westboro Baptist Church. I understand that you want to play wordgames by using vague terms like "perfect and unchangeable word of God", but unfortunately such terms have many, many interpretations. If you actually spoke to any Muslims about their religion you might know this.

You seem to be saying that it's okay for Muslims to believe that the Qur'an is perfect and unchangeable, as long as they don't believe the bad bits are perfect and unchangeable.

In other words, it's okay to say you believe that the Qur'an is perfect and unchangeable, as long as you don't actually believe it to be so.

The problem comes when impressionable people see other people saying that
the Qur'an is perfect and unchangeable and then think to themselves "Oh, ok. In that case I should live my life in adherence with the values of the Qur'an". That sort of thinking leads to gays being executed, women being tortured and oppressed, disbelievers being bombed, shot, beheaded. Children being squashed by lorries. Lives being ruined.

As does the Bible, and the holy texts of every religion.

Are you saying that all religions are equally violent? Equally hateful? Equally intolerant?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Does "science" say that I'm literally powerless to choose to do something -anything- that goes against British culture?

In your expert opinion, does "science" say that no matter how many competing viewpoints a person is exposed to, no matter how many different cultures they experience, people are hardwired into accepting the culture they grew up with and can never, ever change?

I'm sure that "science" would say that your hilariously hyperbolic misinterpretations are silly. I'll come back to you when you're willing to engage like someone who's actually interested in debate, and not like someone who mischaracterises their opponents position into something they wish it were. Suffice to say that the £400bn advertising industry is surer evidence that people are susceptible to cues, often cultural, than your interpretation.

It's not how I wish Muslims were. I really, really wish that Muslims didn't revere the Qur'an. I wish that they didn't think that the Qur'an was the word of God. I wish that they didn't think that they would be punished for all eternity if they didn't follow the Qur'an.

The world would be a much better place if any of those things were true.

Wrong kind of wish sonny. You're stereotyping Muslims into something that's easy to criticise. I make no comment on whether you want that in some kind of existential way - I'm saying it's what you wish they were for the purposes of the argument.

Do you actually know any Muslims? I know plenty, and none of them believe what you're claiming.

What practices are these, and why do you think they justify following the teachings of a hateful, violent and intolerant book?

Living ordinary lives, and not bothering others. Why do you not condemn all Christians in this vociferous way?

Would neo-Nazis be justified in following the teachings of Mein Kampf if they adopted similar practices?

I really don't think you could have missed the point any harder.

Speaking on behalf of women and accusing me of being patronising in the same sentence? Well done!

Self-awareness level: 0. Try harder. Do you watch TheAmazingAtheist? It's uncanny. Calling me patronising for calling you patronising is a spectacularly self-defeating argument.

You seem to be saying that it's okay for Muslims to believe that the Qur'an is perfect and unchangeable, as long as they don't believe the bad bits are perfect and unchangeable.

In other words, it's okay to say you believe that the Qur'an is perfect and unchangeable, as long as you don't actually believe it to be so.

Have you ever met a Muslim who has explained this to you? Hell, have you ever met a Christian who has explained how this works with the Bible as well?

It's almost like you're just conjuring up a strawman and then burning it...

The problem comes when impressionable people see other people saying that
the Qur'an is perfect and unchangeable and then think to themselves "Oh, ok. In that case I should live my life in adherence with the values of the Qur'an". That sort of thinking leads to gays being executed, women being tortured and oppressed, disbelievers being bombed, shot, beheaded. Children being squashed by lorries. Lives being ruined.

The only person who is impressionable here is you, who seems to have got his opinions on Islam solely from the Daily Mail, or possibly """""rational"""" people like Pat Condell. It's tiresome, predictable and, fundamentally, ignorant.

Are you saying that all religions are equally violent? Equally hateful? Equally intolerant?

You're literally arguing that Islam is violent because of the Quran. All I need to do is point out the Bible. Yet again, the double standards, and the continual refusal to address it when I keep pointing it out.

 

[Gutfright]

Suffice to say that the £400bn advertising industry is surer evidence that people are susceptible to cues, often cultural, than your interpretation.

Susceptible to cues =/= completely powerless to adopt different cultural practices/ leave a religion.

Do you actually know any Muslims? I know plenty, and none of them believe what you're claiming.

None of them believe that the Qur'an is the word of God? Or none of them believe that God is perfect?

Sadly, I don't think that these atheist Muslims you hang about with are representative of most of the Muslim world.

You're literally arguing that Islam is violent because of the Quran. All I need to do is point out the Bible. Yet again, the double standards, and the continual refusal to address it when I keep pointing it out.

It's okay for Islam to be violent, hateful etc etc because the Bible is violent, hateful etc etc?

Ever heard the phrase "two wrongs don't make a right"?

 

[Gutfright]

Heh.

Where to start?

Have a look at Leviticus. Or Judges. Are all Christians that bigoted?

Why is it so hard to believe that Muslims are incapable of reasonably interpreting an ancient text?

I'm not going to defend Christianity. Just like Islam, their holy book is stupid and regressive and should play no role in the shaping of 21st century society.

However, Christians are at least afforded a little wiggle room with regards to Leviticus and Judges. They can argue out that both books are part of the Old Testament, and are superceded by the New Testament.

The Qur'an does not have an Old Testament and a New Testament.

How can Muslims rationalise away verses like 4:34?

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

I'm not refusing to answer - I'm explaining why it's a ridiculous question in the first place. The fact that you keep ignoring that and banging on, whilst assuming most Muslims take a fundamentalist attitude, is the very problem.

You are refusing to answer.

You have repeatedly implied that you know more about Islam than I do. So why not share your knowledge and experience with me? Don't you want to combat ignorance and Islamophobia?

Why not explain the non-literal interpretation of

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

that "the vast majority of Muslims" adopt? Why not explain how "the vast majority of Muslims" convince themselves that verse 4:34 is not God's clear endorsement of patriarchy?

 

[AlterEgo]

Don't you want to combat ignorance and Islamophobia?

Illuminating comment. No more to be said.

 

[TheKnightWho]

You are refusing to answer.

You have repeatedly implied that you know more about Islam than I do. So why not share your knowledge and experience with me? Don't you want to combat ignorance and Islamophobia?

Why not explain the non-literal interpretation of

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

that "the vast majority of Muslims" adopt? Why not explain how "the vast majority of Muslims" convince themselves that verse 4:34 is not God's clear endorsement of patriarchy?

Refusing to answer what? How that isn't misogynistic? I'm not saying it isn't misogynistic. My question to you is why it's relevant. Do you think most Muslims are fundamentalists?

Forcing the debate onto your terms by refusing to engage with the point of my posts just makes you look like you're being wilfully ignorant. Why are you being wilfully ignorant and refusing to engage properly?

Ultimately this comes down to the fact that you think that Muslims somehow all follow and practice everything stated in the Quran, despite the vast evidence suggesting that this does not actually occur. I don't need to explain why they don't follow it: I just need to point out that they don't. And don't give me that rubbish about the New Testament superceding, unless you think the Church of England follows everything in that (which they very much don't).

It's quite obvious you're quite bigoted towards religion in general, but particularly Islam.

 

[Gutfright]

Illuminating comment. No more to be said.

You could try answering the question I asked you? Just a thought.

Refusing to answer what?

I've asked you several times what interpretation of verse 4:34 the vast majority of Muslims use.

For reasons best known to yourself, you have not given any answer.

I'm not saying [the Qur'an] isn't misogynistic.

It seems you have finally come to accept that, whether interpreted literally or non-literally, there is blatant misogyny in the Qur'an. Good. We're making progress.

Now perhaps you could use your superior knowledge of Islam to answer one question:

Is the Qur'an an integral part of the religion of Islam?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Heh. Where to start?

Have a look at Leviticus. Or Judges. Are all Christians that bigoted?

Why is it so hard to believe that Muslims are incapable of reasonably interpreting an ancient text?

May I intercede here as it must be pointed out that what is currently known as the Book of Leviticus is absolutely nothing to do with the Christian religion, but that of Judaism and was written long before the onset of Christianity.

That book these days is known in Hebrew as Vayikra, but its formally known name is that of Torat Kohamin. This book covers instructions for the Judaic priests.

 

[TheKnightWho]

It seems you have finally come to accept that, whether interpreted literally or non-literally, there is blatant misogyny in the Qur'an. Good. We're making progress.

Now perhaps you could use your superior knowledge of Islam to answer one question:

Is the Qur'an an integral part of the religion of Islam?

Just stop. I can only conclude that this is a strong case of the Dunning-Kruger effect.

You have consistently, time and again, failed to acknowledge that quotes from the majority of the Quran have little bearing on the lives of ordinary Muslims, just as quotes from the Bible have little bearing on the lives of ordinary Christians.

In trying to repeatedly push this line, you consistently make ignorant assumptions about Muslims that fail to demonstrate any first-hand understanding of Islam or Muslims themselves, and instead demonstrates an agenda to demonise the religion, despite the elements you are claiming are so damaging making little practical difference.

And if you want to dispute that you are small-minded, the fact that you have continuously failed to acknowledge my point for several posts in a row is strong evidence against that.

I have a simple question for you: Why do you cynically abuse the language of feminism to push an agenda of bigotry against Islam?
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May I intercede here as it must be pointed out that what is currently known as the Book of Leviticus is absolutely nothing to do with the Christian religion, but that of Judaism and was written long before the onset of Christianity.

That book these days is known in Hebrew as Vayikra, but its formally known name is that of Torat Kohamin. This book covers instructions for the Judaic priests.

Except you are wrong. Because, as Matthew 5:17-18 states:

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

 

[Gutfright]

May I intercede here as it must be pointed out that what is currently known as the Book of Leviticus is absolutely nothing to do with the Christian religion, but that of Judaism and was written long before the onset of Christianity.

That book these days is known in Hebrew as Vayikra, but its formally known name is that of Torat Kohamin. This book covers instructions for the Judaic priests.

Careful. If you point out that some texts that appear in holy books are problematic, that automatically makes you a racist bigot.

You'd better retract your statement lest the usual suspects turn up to call you an anti-semite. This is the world we live in.

 

[EM2]

How can Muslims rationalise away verses like 4:34?

Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

In exactly the same way that Christians can rationalise away Genesis 3:16:
'To the woman he said, "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; with pain you will give birth to children. Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.'

 

[TheKnightWho]

Careful. If you point out that some texts that appear in holy books are problematic, that automatically makes you a racist bigot.

You'd better retract your statement lest the usual suspects turn up to call you an anti-semite. This is the world we live in.

When you spend 4 pages justifying discrimination against Christians and British culture because the Bible contains misogyny I'll be convinced that you actually care about feminist issues.

It always amazes me how right-wing people seem to become ardent feminists when it allows them to be racists.

 

[Gutfright]

In trying to repeatedly push this line, you consistently make ignorant assumptions about Muslims

It's not an assumption, it's a question:

Is the Qur'an an integral part of the religion of Islam?

I don't get why you won't spread your superior understanding of Islam to help combat ignorance and bigotry. Why are you afraid to answer the question?

I have a simple question for you: Why do you cynically abuse the language of feminism to push an agenda of bigotry against Islam?

I'm interested to know whether misogyny is always a bad thing, or if it's only a bad thing when it's non-Muslims being misogynistic.

I have a bit of a dilemma here. You are clearly unaware that women are treated very shabbily in Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, seemingly preferring to believe that the vast majority of Muslims are progressive feminists.

I could point out that your idealised fantasy version of the Islamic world bears absolutely no relation to reality, but it would clearly clearly cause you a great deal of hurt to find out what life is really like for women in most Muslim countries.

When a lie makes you happier than the truth ever could, is it okay to lie to you and tell you that all but a tiny minority of Muslims are progressive feminists?

It's a tough call.

 

[EM2]

Is the Qur'an an integral part of the religion of Islam?

Yes it is. Is The Bible an integral part of the religion of Christianity?

I'm interested to know whether misogyny is always a bad thing

Yes it is

is it okay to lie to you and tell you that all but a tiny minority of Muslims are progressive feminists?

Is it okay to lie to you and tell you that all but a tiny minority of Christians are progressive feminists?