Discussion on Islamophobia and racism

[Gutfright]

Is it okay to lie to you and tell you that all but a tiny minority of Christians are progressive feminists?

Not really. I don't believe that all but a tiny minority of Christians are progressive feminists, because I live on planet Earth.

Similarly, I don't believe that all but a tiny minority of Muslims are progressive feminists, because I live on planet Earth.

The question is, how do we deal with people who believe that all but a tiny minority of Muslims are progressive feminists because the truth is just too horrible and depressing for them to face?

 

[EM2]

The question is, how do we deal with people who believe that all but a tiny minority of Muslims are progressive feminists because the truth is just too horrible and depressing for them to face?

Let them get on with it. People are entitled to believe in whatever they want to believe in.
Like people who believe in a magic sky pixie that knows everything that has ever happened and ever will happen.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Except you are wrong. Because, as Matthew 5:17-18 states:

I assure you that I am right in what I said about the Book of Leviticus, as Matthew wrote after the establishment of Christianity.

If it is any help to you, the five books of the Torah, in order, with their English names added are:-
Bereishis...Genesis
Shemot...Exodus
Vayikira...Leviticus
Ba Midbar...Numbers
D'varim...Deuteronomy

 

[EM2]

... t's kinder to let him persist in his delusion that these countries are feminist utopias.

Except no-one has actually said that.

 

[bb21]

Careful. If you point out that some texts that appear in holy books are problematic, that automatically makes you a racist bigot.

That is one of the worst twisting of other people's words I have ever seen. Maybe you should read the whole thread through again.
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I have a bit of a dilemma here. You are clearly unaware that women are treated very shabbily in Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, seemingly preferring to believe that the vast majority of Muslims are progressive feminists.

What?

I find it really difficult to decide whether you are trolling or not.

 

[Gutfright]

Except no-one has actually said that.

That is one of the worst twisting of people's words I have ever seen.

See post 46 where TheKnightWho says that "the vast majority of Muslims" don't incorporate sexism into their everyday lives.

Clearly, he is unaware of what life is like for women and girls in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc.

 

[bb21]

See post 46 where TheKnightWho says that "the vast majority of Muslims" don't incorporate sexism into their everyday lives.

How does that have anything to do with the accusation from you that I quoted?

Clearly, he is unaware of what life is like for women and girls in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc.

I think you will find that he had indeed acknowledged that there are problematic parts of islamic teaching and the Arabic world.

Have you actually been reading the thread?

 

[Gutfright]

How does that have anything to do with the accusation from you that I quoted?

Mea culpa. I quoted from the wrong part of your post. Apologies for any confusion caused.

I think you will find that he had indeed acknowledged that there are problematic parts of islamic teaching and the Arabic world.

It would be helpful to me to know in which post(s) TheKnightWho acknowledged that there are problematic parts of islamic teaching and the Arabic world so that, if necessary, I can correct any mistakes I've made.

Has TheKnightWho also revoked the claim he made in post 46?

 

[bb21]

It would be helpful to me to know in which post(s) TheKnightWho acknowledged that there are problematic parts of islamic teaching and the Arabic world so that, if necessary, I can correct any mistakes I've made.

This post, for example. There are also a few other places he did so.

 

[Gutfright]

This post, for example. There are also a few other places he did so.

In that post TheKnightWho says that he is aware of the issue [sic] facing women in many Muslim countries, yet seems to contradict this by saying in post 46 that the "vast majority" of Muslims do not incorporate sexism into their everyday lives.

This makes it seem as though TheKnightWho is underestimating the extent of sexism in the Muslim world.

 

[TheKnightWho]

It's not an assumption, it's a question:

Is the Qur'an an integral part of the religion of Islam?

I don't get why you won't spread your superior understanding of Islam to help combat ignorance and bigotry. Why are you afraid to answer the question?



I'm interested to know whether misogyny is always a bad thing, or if it's only a bad thing when it's non-Muslims being misogynistic.

I have a bit of a dilemma here. You are clearly unaware that women are treated very shabbily in Muslim countries such as Saudi Arabia, seemingly preferring to believe that the vast majority of Muslims are progressive feminists.

I could point out that your idealised fantasy version of the Islamic world bears absolutely no relation to reality, but it would clearly clearly cause you a great deal of hurt to find out what life is really like for women in most Muslim countries.

When a lie makes you happier than the truth ever could, is it okay to lie to you and tell you that all but a tiny minority of Muslims are progressive feminists?

It's a tough call.

I did answer your question. My point is also about Muslims in this country, not Saudi Arabia.

Where's your condemnation of the way that Christians treat LGBTQ people in Africa? Could it be that because it's not in this country it doesn't have much bearing on your opinion, and it's also not useful for co-option into justifying discrimination against British Muslims?

You are clearly a bigoted individual who tries to justify it based on a failure to understand or know British Muslims. Educate yourself, and please stop spreading your ignorance around as though you know what you're talking about. Or do I need to link the Dunning-Kruger effect again?

Your utter and continual failure to address the point speaks volumes. You continually push the same line of reasoning without explaining how it's relevant in the face of my objections, which is a tactic usually employed by zealots. You aren't the bastion of reason you think you are.
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In that post TheKnightWho says that he is aware of the issue [sic] facing women in many Muslim countries, yet seems to contradict this by saying in post 46 that the "vast majority" of Muslims do not incorporate sexism into their everyday lives.

This makes it seem as though TheKnightWho is underestimating the extent of sexism in the Muslim world.

Since when did we go from talking about Muslims in Britain to talking about Muslims across the world?
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The question is, how do we deal with people who believe that all but a tiny minority of Muslims are progressive feminists because the truth is just too horrible and depressing for them to face?

Stop kidding yourself. We're not deluded or stupid, and you're clearly extremely arrogant to think so.

Rather, I actually know real people who genuinely hold Islamic beliefs. On the other hand, it's far from clear that you have.
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I assure you that I am right in what I said about the Book of Leviticus, as Matthew wrote after the establishment of Christianity.

If it is any help to you, the five books of the Torah, in order, with their English names added are:-
Bereishis...Genesis
Shemot...Exodus
Vayikira...Leviticus
Ba Midbar...Numbers
D'varim...Deuteronomy

And Matthew was talking about the Old Testament, Paul. You are wrong.
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In that post TheKnightWho says that he is aware of the issue [sic] facing women in many Muslim countries, yet seems to contradict this by saying in post 46 that the "vast majority" of Muslims do not incorporate sexism into their everyday lives.

This makes it seem as though TheKnightWho is underestimating the extent of sexism in the Muslim world.

Did you know that those who correct spelling and grammar are more likely to interpret those they are listening to in a poor light?

http://www.ns.umich.edu/new/releases/23635-personality-influences-how-one-reacts-to-email-errors

That might explain why you consistently fail to understand what I'm saying, and why you keep twisting words to gratify your own ego.
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Have you actually been reading the thread?

I get the impression he isn't, frankly.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

And Matthew was talking about the Old Testament, Paul. You are wrong.

I wonder if we are at cross purposes as the Book of Leviticus suddenly appears to have been quoted in the middle of a discussion on Islam and Christianity, where Judaism had never been mentioned, so even as you say, Matthew had made the point that you stated, you have to remember that the five books of the Torah were written a very long time before Christianity and even longer than of Islam.

It is often said that the strict Wahaabist version of Sunni Islam goes back to a time period of 1400 years ago, so how many years ago do you think it was when the Book of Leviticus, with its inherent requirements for the Judaic priests of the time was actually written and do you agree that what Matthew tried to make comment upon, in what Christianity refers to as the Old Testament, from a very early time in Christianity understood the reflections of the time in when the Book of Leviticus was written?

 

[Gutfright]

I did answer your question.

That is a lie.

You haven't answered the question.

Is the Qur'an an integral part of the religion of Islam?

Where's your condemnation of the way that Christians treat LGBTQ people in Africa?

Right here: I condemn the way that Christians treat LGBTQ people in Africa.

As I've said before two wrongs don't make a right. The appalling treatment of LGBTQI people in Africa does not justify the appalling treatment of women and minorities in the Muslim world.

Since when did we go from talking about Muslims in Britain to talking about Muslims across the world?

Since post 46 at least, possibly earlier.

 

[TheKnightWho]

That is a lie.

You haven't answered the question.

Is the Qur'an an integral part of the religion of Islam?

That would be because that's a different question to the one you asked before.

Of course it's an integral part. That doesn't change the fact that most Muslims do not, in fact, follow everything written in it and apply it to every aspect of their lives - particularly in this country. As has been pointed out to you time and time again, that would be like discriminating against Christians because of extreme elements of the Bible. It's completely wrongheaded.

Right here: I condemn the way that Christians treat LGBTQ people in Africa.

As I've said before two wrongs don't make a right. The appalling treatment of LGBTQI people in Africa does not justify the appalling treatment of women and minorities in the Muslim world.

As was literally already explained to you, it's not about "two wrong make a right". It's about your disproportionate criticism.

The fact that you can't even get that right speaks volumes.

Why do you want to tar all Muslims with the same brush? Why are you trying to justify discrimination? Why are you so ignorant of Islam as it's actually practised in this country? Those are far more pertinent questions than anything you have asked.

But of course, I expect you to focus purely on the fact I said the Quran was an integral part of Islam, and come to some ridiculous conclusion that therefore all Muslims are violent misogynists, and therefore that I'm somehow deluded. Am I right?
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I wonder if we are at cross purposes as the Book of Leviticus suddenly appears to have been quoted in the middle of a discussion on Islam and Christianity, where Judaism had never been mentioned, so even as you say, Matthew had made the point that you stated, you have to remember that the five books of the Torah were written a very long time before Christianity and even longer than of Islam.

It is often said that the strict Wahaabist version of Sunni Islam goes back to a time period of 1400 years ago, so how many years ago do you think it was when the Book of Leviticus, with its inherent requirements for the Judaic priests of the time was actually written and do you agree that what Matthew tried to make comment upon, in what Christianity refers to as the Old Testament, from a very early time in Christianity understood the reflections of the time in when the Book of Leviticus was written?

I agree that the interpretations of the Torah were likely very different at the time of Matthew to when the individual books themselves were written, but it doesn't change the fact that he still says that the old laws hold regardless of the new teachings of Jesus Christ. Saying that they have nothing to do with Christianity is simply not correct.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Right here: I condemn the way that Christians treat LGBTQ people in Africa.

As I've said before two wrongs don't make a right. The appalling treatment of LGBTQI people in Africa does not justify the appalling treatment of women and minorities in the Muslim world.

Let it not be forgotten that the Arab slave trade commenced with the captives in the earliest expansion of that empire and was well established as long ago as the 8th/9th century AD. It was mainly based eventually in the areas of Western Africa, South-East Africa and the Horn of Africa in that continent with thriving slave markets in all of those three areas. The Ummayid and Abbasid caliphates were particular exponents of the slave trade.

If you are looking at numbers of African peoples who were enslaved by the Europeans, the number of those who had been captured by the Arab slave trade is many-fold greater.

 

[Jonny]

Islam is not a race.

Mod note - Split from this thread

Exactly - Muslims are an ethnically heterogeneous bunch, whose common feature is the religion of Islam.

Oh, and when people say "It's not in the Quran" they are being disingenious - there is the slight matter of the Hadith, which is of equal provenance to the Quran and whereas the Quran is what Muhammed said, the Hadith is what Muhammad did; it condones at least two forms of criminality.
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While I'm on, here are some sources:
(not exactly pleasant, but true)

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Why_Terrorism_is_Allowed_in_Islam
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Islam_and_Pedophilia
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Which brings me onto another point...

Let it not be forgotten that the Arab slave trade commenced with the captives in the earliest expansion of that empire and was well established as long ago as the 8th/9th century AD. It was mainly based eventually in the areas of Western Africa, South-East Africa and the Horn of Africa in that continent with thriving slave markets in all of those three areas. The Ummayid and Abbasid caliphates were particular exponents of the slave trade.

If you are looking at numbers of African peoples who were enslaved by the Europeans, the number of those who had been captured by the Arab slave trade is many-fold greater.

The majority of such slaves taken by the Arabs were castrated or worse, so it is less obvious today as they lack visible descendants. Africans were preferred as Eunuchs because, if the operation didn't work (for whatever reason, usually retraction) and the Queen was 'playing away', it would be immediately visible.

 

[AlterEgo]

May I intercede here as it must be pointed out that what is currently known as the Book of Leviticus is absolutely nothing to do with the Christian religion, but that of Judaism and was written long before the onset of Christianity.

That book these days is known in Hebrew as Vayikra, but its formally known name is that of Torat Kohamin. This book covers instructions for the Judaic priests.

It's in the Old Testament. Of course it's part of the Christian religion, even if its instructions are no longer adhered to by Christians.

God underwent an enormous PR makeover between the Old and New Testaments, but I think killing his own son to save everyone (!) was a critical error. He's been in hiding ever since.

 

[EM2]

TheKnightWho says that "the vast majority of Muslims" don't incorporate sexism into their everyday lives.

And he's right, they don't.

Clearly, he is unaware of what life is like for women and girls in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc.

Two countries that make up 13% of the world Muslim population, so not exactly a majority.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

.



It fascinates me to read the words of the appeasers pleading tolerance towards an ideology that tolerates no others in places it controls, that discriminates against and murders those who do not conform (not terrorists but governments).


The Germans were lovely people it wasn't them causing the trouble it was those damn Nazis


Love the people, hate the ideology

 

[DarloRich]

I find it interesting that questions asked by both sides go unanswered.

 

[Groningen]

Watch what will happen if Donald Trump becomes president. Chance is small, but still possible.

 

[Muttley]

Am I right?

Well it'll be a forum first if you are.
The law of averages says you must be getting close though.

 

[ExRes]

Watch what will happen if Donald Trump becomes president. Chance is small, but still possible.

I can't see why the 'chance is small', it looks like 50/50 to me and he's up against one of the most hated people in America

 

[DarloRich]

I can't see why the 'chance is small', it looks like 50/50 to me and he's up against one of the most hated people in America

A battle of the two most hated people in America. What could possibly go wrong?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

God underwent an enormous PR makeover between the Old and New Testaments, but I think killing his own son to save everyone (!) was a critical error. He's been in hiding ever since.

I think there is some confusion here. The accepted Trinity in Christianity, the specific religion mentioned in your posting, is three parts of the same deity. When Jesus came onto earth, it was not as a part of a tripartite deity, but as a "man" and what occurred during his life on earth was done in that same guise, under his own free will. However, can you give examples of what you say in the religions of Judaism or Islam that makes mention of the specific statement you make.

The best known example of a human person being asked by God to kill his own son as a test was shown in the story of God asking Abraham to sacrifice his own son Isaac.

God, as commonly understood, forms the most fundamental part of Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

 

[Gutfright]

Why do you want to tar all Muslims with the same brush?

I don't.

Why are you trying to justify discrimination?

I'm not.

Why are you so ignorant of Islam as it's actually practised in this country?

There is zero evidence that you know any more about Islam than I do. In fact you didn't even realise there was sexism in the Qur'an until I pointed it out to you.

Those are far more pertinent questions than anything you have asked.

None of those were pertinent questions. They were all childish attempts to misrepresent what I have said. It's quite pathetic, frankly.

But of course, I expect you to focus purely on the fact I said the Quran was an integral part of Islam, and come to some ridiculous conclusion that therefore all Muslims are violent misogynists, and therefore that I'm somehow deluded. Am I right?

Of course not.

I've never before claimed that all Muslims are violent misogynists. Why would I start now?

This conversation is in danger of getting a little acrimonious. Maybe it would be useful for us to step back for a second and look at the things we agree about?

1. We agree that Islam encourages it's followers to adhere to the Qur'an (Post 74)
2. We agree that there is unequivocal misogyny in the Qur'an (Post 52)
3. We agree that misogyny should be opposed, not encouraged
4. As we both agree that Islam encourages it's followers to adhere to the Qur'an, and we both agree the Qur'an encourages misogyny then logically we both agree that Islam encourages misogyny
5. Logically we must both agree, therefore, that Islam should be opposed

As we are in fundamental agreement that Islam should be opposed, perhaps we can use this thread to share ideas on how best to achieve our mutual aim of discouraging that religion, and what form(s) our mutual opposition to it should take?

See post 46 where TheKnightWho says that "the vast majority of Muslims" don't incorporate sexism into their everyday lives.

Clearly, he is unaware of what life is like for women and girls in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia etc.

Two countries that make up 13% of the world Muslim population, so not exactly a majority.

I don't think you understand what et cetera means.