Disorder on 0926 Kings Cross - Hertford (7 December)

[yorkie]

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L01139/2013/12/07

16 minute delay at Bowes Park and "This service was cancelled between Hertford North and Stevenage due to disorder."

This was an unusual journey as the train initially departed on time, but then stopped suddenly as the signal went back to red.

At Bowes Park a chav jumped out of the rear portion of the train when he saw a revenue officer approaching, ran up to the front portion and leapt back on. As we alighted at Bowes Park I informed the revenue officer of this matter, so I guess she went to investigate.

Anyone know more about this incident? I hope the chav didn't cause too many problems when caught at the next station and no-one was harmed. Dealing with chavs is not a nice task for anyone.

(By the way, in case anyone isn't sure, chav is a term we use in York, and many other places, to describe people who behave in an anti-social way who have no regard for others)

 

[Aictos]

Well I know it's wishful thinking but the delay should be charged by Network Rail to the **** without a ticket, it won't happen though but it should.

Secondly I'm perfectly in my rights to call him a **** because off peak there is only a hourly service north of Hertford North so I hope he's happy he's spoiled everyone's day as there now would have been a 2 hour gap in service - now I know there are some locations which are lucky to have a 2 trains a day service but that's not the point.

Sorry for the mini rant but seriously though the courts should have a zero tolerance approach to fare dodging and make it as taboo as drink driving as should speeding but speeding is a matter for another topic.

 

[yorkie]

Your frustration is understandable but it's not a Network Rail issue - unless he did something like ran off down the track, then I believe it would be. Had I realised something untoward was going to happen, I would have hung around to be a witness.

There must be a lot more to it than simply dodging - perhaps he engaged in threatening behaviour. We are far, far too lenient on people who use, or threaten, violence in this country. That is the problem.

 

[maniacmartin]

I don't see any evidence that the disorder was necessarily caused by the fare evader we witnessed at Bowes Park. Also, the signal going to red was at a previous station, so it is probably unrelated.

 

[Harlesden]

How can a signaller give a green light to a scheduled service departing on time and then suddenly change it to red as the train pulls away?
Surely this should be reported to National Rail as a potentially dangerous situation.
The driver moved away correctly on the green and was only supposed to be looking out for the next signal. If it had been a 6-car unit, the driver might legitimately have missed the green signal suddenly changing back to red.
Had the driver missed the sudden change there could well have been a serious accident.

 

[carriageline]

Do you know the reason the signal was reverted to danger? Could of been reverted back to danger in accordance with the rules and regs? Or even equipment failure.

If fitted, the TPWS would of stopped him passing it anyway.

Regardless how would it cause an accident?

it's near, if not actually impossible to cause an accident by reverting the signal to danger in this situation, even if the driver did manage to completely pass it.

So don't worry your little cotton socks.

 

[A-driver]

How can a signaller give a green light to a scheduled service departing on time and then suddenly change it to red as the train pulls away?
Surely this should be reported to National Rail as a potentially dangerous situation.
The driver moved away correctly on the green and was only supposed to be looking out for the next signal. If it had been a 6-car unit, the driver might legitimately have missed the green signal suddenly changing back to red.
Had the driver missed the sudden change there could well have been a serious accident.

Sorry but none of that is in anyway truthful...

First if all what evidence is there that the signaller took the signal back? It's normally down to a signal fault when a reversion happens.

Secondly it's not potentially dangerous. If it's green then it indicates the line ahead is clear. If it reverts because the signaller took it back then there is no danger as the line ahead is still clear. And the driver would definately have reported it, these things never ever go unlogged. Forms are filled out, managers are alerted on both NR and TOC side and a huge deal is made out of a fairly trivial situation.

The driver is not correctly looking out for the next signal after pulling off. The driver should be checking the signal until past it and if it does revert should apply the brakes. OK it can be missed when up close but you don't just check a signal once then ignore it. When leaving a platform you check signal, close doors, check signal, check for interlock, check signal, take power, check signal and so on. Once the cab is past the signal the signal can't revert anyway as the train is past it.

What does the length of unit have to do with it? 3 car or 6 car the driver sits at the front as far as I'm aware and once the cab has passed the signal it is no longer relevant so can't revert.

What serious accident could have been caused if the driver missed it? As I have explained earlier there are no safety issues with signal reversions in the way you describe. A signal reversion could certainly never cause a serious accident. More often than not it will infact prevent a serious accident.

Sorry to pick your post apart but I don't think you fully understand how railway signalling works or what a signal reversion actually is. It's a fairly common occurrence and is normally a signal fault although the signaller can set certain signals back to danger in an emergency to stop a train.

 

[yorkie]

I don't see any evidence that the disorder was necessarily caused by the fare evader we witnessed at Bowes Park.

Though there's no evidence of any other cause either!

Also, the signal going to red was at a previous station, so it is probably unrelated.

I am sure it was completely unrelated! Just that added to it being an unusual journey.

Sorry to pick your post apart ...

I'm grateful you have! I wouldn't have mentioned it had I realised such uninformed remarks would be made in response! And it's best that you pick his post apart rather than me!

 

[455driver]

How can a signaller give a green light to a scheduled service departing on time and then suddenly change it to red as the train pulls away?
Surely this should be reported to National Rail as a potentially dangerous situation.
The driver moved away correctly on the green and was only supposed to be looking out for the next signal. If it had been a 6-car unit, the driver might legitimately have missed the green signal suddenly changing back to red.
Had the driver missed the sudden change there could well have been a serious accident.

You are over emphasising the point!

I stopped at a red last Sunday, it cleared to yellow so I pulled away and the TPWS fired stopping the train, I contacted the box, we had a discussion of what had happened and I was on my way 30 seconds later.

A signal going back is no big deal really, although it can make you jump a bit when you are running on greens at 90 and the next signal goes back to red.

 

[Tomnick]

What would 'National Rail' do about it anyway? Believe me, such occurrences are taken very seriously indeed. All sorts of possible causes (ranging from genuine emergency to human error), and approach locking ensures that everything's still safe.

If fitted, the TPWS would of stopped him passing it anyway.

It's not bad, but it's not that good .

 

[carriageline]

You know what I mean!! Stopped him AS he passed the grid then!!

 

[Tomnick]

Of course, I think I knew what you meant. I wasn't trying to be critical of your post anyway, but rather (for the benefit of those contributors who think otherwise) to point out that the safety of any train that a signal reverts to danger in front of doesn't rely upon the train being able to stop immediately. In the vast majority of installations, approach locking will hold the route until enough time has elapsed to ensure that the approaching train has been able to come to a stand (or has passed the signal at danger, in which case it'll hold the route by other means).