Disruption to services - Storm Dudley & Storm Eunice

[Roast Veg]

I shall send you a box of mansize tissues lol

Oh not upset with the railway! I have a crossrail event that I don't want to miss!

 

[WAO]

There is a small up-side to all this.

Trees, even ones with tree preservation orders, cannot blow down twice.

WAO

 

[sk688]

WCML South - managed to get a Euston bound LNWR from Milton Keynes to Euston at 850 , running much faster than it was in the morning as well

 

[Megafuss]

It's very interesting to see the different reactions of different operators, with some throwing in the towel early on or even yesterday, and others running the best service they could throughout.

Unfortunately, regardless of blame, the rail industry really doesn't come out of this looking good. Broadly speaking the roads have remained open throughout, and the industry messaging has just been "travel this weekend instead" - which is no help at all to those who have been stranded.

Time and again, the industry demonstrates that the train can't be relied upon to get you to your destination.

There is a big difference between a private citizen choosing to drive a car depite knowing the dangerous conditions outside and expecting other to do that for you. I'd argue TOCS "valiantly" soldiering on are more to blame as they've taken passengers somewhere in the morning and may not get back in the evening.

So I am warming to the idea of "stay at home" instructions for all folk in these types of rare extreme events.

 

[TheEdge]

Unfortunately, regardless of blame, the rail industry really doesn't come out of this looking good. Broadly speaking the roads have remained open throughout, and the industry messaging has just been "travel this weekend instead" - which is no help at all to those who have been stranded.

If you compare a car to a train you'll note two importance differences. At the front of your car you'll find a self contained engine with attached fuel supply and you won't need to rely on any external power source, like for example wires. Also underneath the engine you might spot two wheels with directional control, allowing you to go round obstacles, perhaps take different routes. Railways, by their very nature, are constrained to rails and if there is something lying on them there is very little you can do.

 

[Brush 4]

If NR won't remove trees, nature is happy to oblige. God moves.........

 

[43066]

Unfortunately, regardless of blame, the rail industry really doesn't come out of this looking good. Broadly speaking the roads have remained open throughout, and the industry messaging has just been "travel this weekend instead" - which is no help at all to those who have been stranded.

Yes the roads stayed open (but didn’t national express and mega bus suspend services?!). The difference with the roads is that there’s no “duty or care” - if people are stupid enough to drive (including several on the motorway towing caravans) during storm force winds, as I saw today, that’s between them and their insurance company.

There’s a case for keeping local/metro services going for commuters but, in the case of long distance operators (including mine), no service really would have been better. A handful of trains left London around lunchtime before the job had to be stopped anyway, a couple ran over two hours late and then took two or more hours *longer* than usual to reach their destinations.

Most people sensibly stayed away but there were a couple of hen dos (yes really) and assorted people who appeared on the trains in London and decided to abandon travel when “not sure, several hours” was the answer to the question of “how long to get to X?”. Fairly clearly these were not essential journeys and I have no sympathy whatsoever if these people ended up stranded.

The upshot of those few trains is many displaced crew and units (four and a half hours back in a taxi in my case) which will mean late book-ons tomorrow and further impact the service.

 

[geoffk]

What would you liked the railway to of done?
With hundreds of trees falling, building roofs blown on to tracks, garden sheds, trampolines etc?
All things, completely out of the industries hands!
I think considering the circumstances Network rail teams out there on the ground in some horrendous conditions have done a bloody good job!!

Today's railway, unlike the steam railway of 60 years ago, lacks the resilience to deal with extreme weather events. While I understand the reasons for this, it must have come to the notice of the decision makers and those holding the purse strings. The "hundreds of trees falling" shouldn't have been next to the railway, but someone will say some were on private land outside the fence! Many people needed to go out so they will have been taking their chance on the roads.

 

[800001]

Today's railway, unlike the steam railway of 60 years ago, lacks the resilience to deal with extreme weather events. While I understand the reasons for this, it must have come to the notice of the decision makers and those holding the purse strings. The "hundreds of trees falling" shouldn't have been next to the railway, but someone will say some were on private land outside the fence! Many people needed to go out so they will have been taking their chance on the roads.

But when network rail clear the trees at side of lines, local NIMBYS going running up there councillors, and I’m sure Grant Shapps put a stop to NWR clearing them

 

[dk1]

Unfortunately, regardless of blame, the rail industry really doesn't come out of this looking good. Broadly speaking the roads have remained open throughout, and the industry messaging has just been "travel this weekend instead" - which is no help at all to those who have been stranded.

Time and again, the industry demonstrates that the train can't be relied upon to get you to your destination.

But this goes back donkeys years with similar comments. Unfortunately it’s the nature of the beast & not much will ever change. It tends to make little difference & passengers have short memories & return very quickly.

 

[CBlue]

Today's railway, unlike the steam railway of 60 years ago, lacks the resilience to deal with extreme weather events. While I understand the reasons for this, it must have come to the notice of the decision makers and those holding the purse strings. The "hundreds of trees falling" shouldn't have been next to the railway, but someone will say some were on private land outside the fence! Many people needed to go out so they will have been taking their chance on the roads.

Thankyou for allowing me to scratch off yet another part of my weekly RUK bingo card. All I need now is someone going on about how things were "better back then" (ie, they were young at the time).

I guess steam trains had some kind of magical ability to remove fallen trees from the track?

 

[stuu]

It's very interesting to see the different reactions of different operators, with some throwing in the towel early on or even yesterday, and others running the best service they could throughout.

Unfortunately, regardless of blame, the rail industry really doesn't come out of this looking good. Broadly speaking the roads have remained open throughout, and the industry messaging has just been "travel this weekend instead" - which is no help at all to those who have been stranded.

Time and again, the industry demonstrates that the train can't be relied upon to get you to your destination.

Road vehicles have the option of steering around debris, unless it completely blocks the road. Despite this, there have been lots of closures of main roads and motorways. This mitigation is not available to trains, obviously

 

[syorksdeano]

Seems that this is the problem at Preston https://twitter.com/NetworkRailLC/status/1494728854547619844?t=qHqTHg5KOAXAlNsT22ElFA&s=19

 

[muz379]

Further, my main gripe is the approach that is taken - essentially, "we've given you approx 24 hours notice, therefore, not our problem mate". In essence, stranding people with no options. If there was more protection for customers I'd be more agreeable towards that approach - it's for this reason I won't be using the train to get to the North of Scotland this year (or indeed until something changes, either this practice ceases or more protection is provided for customers) - its just too much risk for me being stranded.

You can have all the policies about "protection for customers" you want . If a tree takes the wires down and they're trapped on a train in the middle of nowhere miles from an access point and hundreds of miles from the nearest loco that can pull it away you are as good as stranded anyway .

Even if you manage to get the train to a point that it can be evacuated if you then have difficulties sourcing onward road transport you are again as good as stranded. We've seen some fatal and serious incidents today on the roads as well.

What then ? Put everyone up for the night . That's not going to be good enough for some passengers and depending on where you are won't be possible at short notice anyway . Again realistically you are again as good as stranded .

The messaging of "Do not travel" and if you have then chosen to do so we cannot guarantee your journey is really Just making passengers aware of the reality of the situation .

I guess steam trains had some kind of magical ability to remove fallen trees from the track?

I mean to be fair with two on the footplate and a guard that's 3 members of traincrew that might have a better chance of shifting a tree . No OHLE also makes it much safer getting out and doing so. Also means you can get running again as soon as the obstruction is shifted in most cases .

 

[Starmill]

But when network rail clear the trees at side of lines, local NIMBYS going running up there councillors, and I’m sure Grant Shapps put a stop to NWR clearing them

Network Rail can and do remove trees. What they are lacking is the money to pay the necessary staff to go out and do it. Trees on private land can still be reduced by agreement with the owners of the land, or by following due process if they won't agree. However this too will consume staff time and as you say there's a risk of 'unhappy neighbours' regardless of how it is approached.

Removing all of the trees that could land on overhead line equipment or the track won't remove all of the disruption from severe weather however.

 

[MontyP]

What would you liked the railway to of done?
With hundreds of trees falling, building roofs blown on to tracks, garden sheds, trampolines etc?
All things, completely out of the industries hands!
I think considering the circumstances Network rail teams out there on the ground in some horrendous conditions have done a bloody good job!!

I do think that the industry can be a bit over-cautious at times (thinking about SW trains thinning out services on London commuter lines when there is a bit of sleet for example). But in this case they have done the right thing. Red and amber warnings in the most densely populated parts of the country have to be taken seriously.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Road vehicles have the option of steering around debris, unless it completely blocks the road. Despite this, there have been lots of closures of main roads and motorways. This mitigation is not available to trains, obviously

No but the probability of line blockages could be reduced if the tress weren't there in the first place. Scanning the NR twitter feeds its obvious many of the trees are within the railway boundary. And when they are in close proximity to OLE its just madness as you get double trouble with not only a line blockage but damaged OLE to repair as well. Wouldn't stop the need to suspend services with an extreme event like this but the period could be limited to the high winds and then services could be quickly restored as damage should be limited.

What is needed is for Shapps to ask searching questions why so many trees are left so close to infrastructure and then for the industry to get the support it needs to clear them. HS1 has minimal tall foliage inside the boundary fence as did our railways pre 1970's.

 

[TPO]

It's very interesting to see the different reactions of different operators, with some throwing in the towel early on or even yesterday, and others running the best service they could throughout.

Unfortunately, regardless of blame, the rail industry really doesn't come out of this looking good. Broadly speaking the roads have remained open throughout, and the industry messaging has just been "travel this weekend instead" - which is no help at all to those who have been stranded.

Time and again, the industry demonstrates that the train can't be relied upon to get you to your destination.

Plenty of roads closed today including BOTH Severn Bridges.

Also the motorway network was showing warnings for severe weather on the matrix signs from Thursday first thing onwards.

People did heed the warnings- the M5 northbound was busy last night, holidaymakers returning from Cornwall and Devon then instead of Friday.

TPO

 

[infobleep]

Nope. Information is incredibly patchy - even for many internal staff. New debris is being encountered on an hourly basis

If trains hadn't run today I imagine the issues would be just as bad, just that they might not know where they were so soon, as there would be no one who'd encountered many of them until proving trains ran.

Am I right in that line of thinking?

 

[ungreat]

Is the ECML likely to be OK tomorrow? I'm supposed to be travelling London-Newcastle around noon.

I'm prepared for it to be very crowded and likely some delays, but I still need to go.

Check many times before you go...our local ops manager said it will be disrupted tomorrow. Im a driver on the ECML and ive just got home. 50mph blanket speed (lifted now) is NOT fun!

 

[stuu]

What is needed is for Shapps to ask searching questions why so many trees are left so close to infrastructure and then for the industry to get the support it needs to clear them. HS1 has minimal tall foliage inside the boundary fence as did our railways pre 1970's.

I suspect the answer is that it is cheaper to deal with the resulting damage than to pre-emptively keep even all main lines clear of trees which can block the lines.

Pre-1970s there were many, many more track workers, and it wasn't unusual for the lineside to be set alight by steam trains

 

[Horizon22]

But this goes back donkeys years with similar comments. Unfortunately it’s the nature of the beast & not much will ever change. It tends to make little difference & passengers have short memories & return very quickly.

Indeed. How many times has this forum seen hyperbole about how over-the-top "DO NOT TRAVEL" in recent years? Yet almost always events have proven that travel was indeed extemely difficult and highly disrupted often for the entirety of the day and into the next one.

 

[TCDD]

Arriving this morning in Portsmouth after the overnight Brittany Ferries crossing from St. Malo (and following a long journey from Madrid) I had little choice but to travel home. Nevertheless, I didn't expect it to be easy - and of course it wasn't. So I felt incredibly fortunate to be able to make it by train and replacement bus (Petersfield - Guildford) as far as Woking before all trains were stopped around 11.00. My experience was of staff doing their best to help passengers, and striking a balance between keeping people safe and helping them get home. I ended up taking a local bus for the last bit to Staines, but I felt I saw the railway at its best this morning. On a day when simply going outside felt a bit dodgy, those who took trains or buses out, and who also had to face a journey back home at the end of the shift deserve a huge amount of thanks. To those of you on this forum who work on the railway and had to bear the brunt of the weather and frustrated passngers - thank you!

 

[Horizon22]

If trains hadn't run today I imagine the issues would be just as bad, just that they might not know where they were so soon, as there would be no one who'd encountered many of them until proving trains ran.

Am I right in that line of thinking?

Pretty much. There would still be debris all over the track. A track clear of trains might have allowed crews to get to places easier, but then you wouldn't be running any trains nor be able to spot the issues

Anyway there's now more route proving going on across Western (about 10 routes) but wouldn't expect any more trains as crew are all over the shop and naturally unsure if they'll be making it back.

 

[dk1]

Indeed. How many times has this forum seen hyperbole about how over-the-top "DO NOT TRAVEL" in recent years? Yet almost always events have proven that travel was indeed extemely difficult and highly disrupted often for the entirety of the day and into the next one.

Yep! Always the same. Just how it is.

 

[CHAPS2034]

I guess steam trains had some kind of magical ability to remove fallen trees from the track?

Not quite. But they did occasionally set fire to saplings etc close to the line so the number of lineside trees were reduced.

 

[43066]

Arriving this morning in Portsmouth after the overnight Brittany Ferries crossing from St. Malo (and following a long journey from Madrid) I had little choice but to travel home. Nevertheless, I didn't expect it to be easy - and of course it wasn't. So I felt incredibly fortunate to be able to make it by train and replacement bus (Petersfield - Guildford) as far as Woking before all trains were stopped around 11.00. My experience was of staff doing their best to help passengers, and striking a balance between keeping people safe and helping them get home. I ended up taking a local bus for the last bit to Staines, but I felt I saw the railway at its best this morning. On a day when simply going outside felt a bit dodgy, those who took trains or buses out, and who also had to face a journey back home at the end of the shift deserve a huge amount of thanks. To those of you on this forum who work on the railway and had to bear the brunt of the weather and frustrated passngers - thank you!

Great post, which will be very much appreciated by all the staff on here. Thanks.

 

[800001]

This is what annoys me, when network rail actually carry out the important safety work, the local MP kicks up a stink. See link below from West Leeds Dispatch.
And this is repeated all across the country. Damned if they do, damned if they don’t.

Concern grows over rail-line vegetation removal as fight goes to Transport Secretary Grant Shapps - West Leeds Dispatch

Controversial work to remove vegetation around the track between Kirkstall Viaduct and Horsforth has been brought to the attention of Transport Secretary Grant Shapps – as West Leeds campaigners speak […]

westleedsdispatch.com

 

[infobleep]

There's still masses of debris all over the track in some places and the worst case scenario is getting people stranded on trains. It's fairly unprecedented when every operator has the same problem across swathes of the country. Maybe, just maybe, this was a very rare weather event which caused unprecedented problems.

Some advised passengers not to travel from yesterday and others didn't.

Yesterday I was wondering if the wind wouldn't be as bad around Guildford as South Western Railway wasn't saying Do Not Travel but Govia Thameslink Railway were.

I was advised not to go into work though so didn't. Part of me wanted to travel by train in this weather but to quote Sherlock Holmes in Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's short story, The Final Problem

I think that you know me well enough, Watson, to understand that I am by no means a nervous man. At the same time, it is stupidity rather than courage to refuse to recognize danger when it is close upon you.

So I didn't let the train take the strain and stayed home.

 

[yorksrob]

This is what annoys me, when network rail actually carry out the important safety work, the local MP kicks up a stink. See link below from West Leeds Dispatch.
And this is repeated all across the country. Damned if they do, damned if they don’t.

Concern grows over rail-line vegetation removal as fight goes to Transport Secretary Grant Shapps - West Leeds Dispatch

Controversial work to remove vegetation around the track between Kirkstall Viaduct and Horsforth has been brought to the attention of Transport Secretary Grant Shapps – as West Leeds campaigners speak […]

westleedsdispatch.com

I do think that we need to be making more of the argument of the benefits that lower level shrubland of the sort suited to the railway lineside, makes to wildlife.