Do you support High Speed 3?

[waterboo]

Even before High Speed Two even sets the rails, we are already being inundated with the prospects of a high speed 3 railway for the north of England.

I do get that rail services are particularly poor in this region, but are we really going to get any benefits from building a whole new railway?

Are you in support of high speed 3?

 

[nferguso]

Are you in support of high speed 3?

Yes, emphatically. Don't argue, grasp the opportunity and see how such a line can develop the broader region.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes, a whole new railway is what is needed, but I fear it will be value engineered down to a few small improvements.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What year in the future are we talking about, if this pipe-dream ever actually sees the light of day and trains are running.

At the age of 69, shall I not bother overmuch as to how much this will be of use to me..

 

[Masbroughlad]

100% yes, but now not tomorrow.

 

[Morgsie]

I support the idea of HS3 in principle but would like it in the West Country and Wales

 

[Deerfold]

I support the idea of HS3 in principle but would like it in the West Country and Wales

Just between those two or linking to somewhere else?

 

[HSTEd]

If its a proper high speed line with 320kph layouts and new stations then yes.

If its a horrible botch job classic line 'upgrade' then no.

 

[Morgsie]

Just between those two or linking to somewhere else?

The proposed line I thought of would be like the Y network, with one branch going down to Devon and Cornwall and the other to Wales. This proposed line can be integrated into HS2 at Old Oak Common

 

[TBY-Paul]

With very little detail to go on, it's hard to say if I support it or not.

Something on a new route, that links in the present planned HS2 routes, and has duplex type stock, then yes.

But as HSTEd says, If its a horrible botch job classic line 'upgrade' then no.

 

[Wavertreelad]

Yes, emphatically. Don't argue, grasp the opportunity and see how such a line can develop the broader region.

Exactly, if anybody saw the two part series on BBC2 a few months ago called Mind The Gap, this sort of project is exactly what was suggested in the programme. Perhaps, in the light of today's opening statement, the BBC could repeat the series or make it available on line again as it currently not available.

This was the trailer

http://youtu.be/DP9-2YhMcEQ

and this is the link to program page.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03y3y8k

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Strange that this project was not deemed worthy enough to be made newsworthy in the early days of the Coalition government...

 

[route:oxford]

The Scottish Nationalists are already whining about it...

Claiming that it proves that English people are treated better than Scottish people...

 

[Lampshade]

Yes, but as a project in its own right, not as a half baked add-on to HS2 (which I still don't support).

 

[NotATrainspott]

The Scottish Nationalists are already whining about it...

Claiming that it proves that English people are treated better than Scottish people...

The business case for E&G HSR should be in the hands of the Scottish Ministers now. If Gideon had waited until after the SNP had made their E&G plans public then Leeds, Manchester et al would be whinging instead. Also, the UK Government aren't going to say anything until Baroness Kramer's report is ready, which will happen before the Summer Recess only a month away now.

 

[Bill Stanier]

There is a massive case for high speed rail to link the 3 most vibrant cities outside London; Manchester, Leeds, and Liverpool. Not sure why Hull is included. These 3 cities are geographically quite close together, but suffer appallingly slow rail and road links to each other.

There's probably at least as strong a case for this line as for HS2.

Can't see any economic case at all fro HS rail linking the West Country and S wales!

 

[TheGrew]

Surely Wales has a HSL in the shape of the soon to be 140MPH capable GWML? Living in the area I certainly see benefit in a Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds route.

 

[NotATrainspott]

There is a massive case for high speed rail to link the 3 most vibrant cities outside London; Manchester, Leeds, and Liverpool. Not sure why Hull is included. These 3 cities are geographically quite close together, but suffer appallingly slow rail and road links to each other.

There's probably at least as strong a case for this line as for HS2.

Can't see any economic case at all fro HS rail linking the West Country and S wales!

The line to Hull looks perfectly straight so it would seem to be a very quick win to increase speeds over this section and include Hull in the economic grouping.

 

[HSTEd]

If nothing else it provides cheap housing for the other locations.

Can't build a London matching conurbation without an affordable Metroland.

 

[Ironside]

Yes a good idea, build it to a large loading gauge so comparable with HS2. High capacity and quick connections between the large Northern cities is important.

 

[nw1]

Even before High Speed Two even sets the rails, we are already being inundated with the prospects of a high speed 3 railway for the north of England.

I do get that rail services are particularly poor in this region, but are we really going to get any benefits from building a whole new railway?

Are you in support of high speed 3?

Not sure whether any agree, but would the money to be spent on this not be better spent in reopening Beeching-closed lines and/or subsidising proper integrated rail/bus links for towns not served by rail, including through ticketing (essentially an extension to PlusBus which is valid outside the urban area)?

Is it so desperately important to get from Manchester to Leeds in 30 mins when many sizable towns throughout the UK have no rail link at all? If there's a capacity issue why not just lengthen the existing Manchester/Leeds trains to say 12 carriages?

That said, for purely selfish reasons I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of spur from HS2 down towards central southern England to relieve the painfully slow and overcrowded links from this part of the world to the north... though even that I would place as lower priority than reopening lines as discussed above. I see social need as the big issue when it comes to improving public transport.

 

[Ironside]

If it was big to a large enough loading gauge would it be useful as a diversionary route for HS2?

 

[Western Lord]

High speed rail only works over long distances. A high speed line stopping every thirty miles is a nonsense. The cost in energy of accelerating a train to high speed is enormous and could not be justified over such short distances. The cost of building a high speed line between Manchester and Leeds would be huge (there's something called The Pennines in the way). Existing services would have to be downgraded in order to force all possible traffic onto the expensive new line. If the raison d'etre was deemed to be capacity, it would be cheaper to quadruple the existing line, for which some of the infrastructure already exists.

 

[Sidious]

The trans-pennine transport links are a national disgrace. Sheffield to Manchester and Liverpool is also important as this is the primary route from the East Midlands.

It's scandalous that between The Greater Manchester Built-up area and South Yorkshire (for onward connectivity to Nottingham and Derby) there isn't even a Dual Carriageway, let alone a motorway. A car journey between Manchester and Sheffield can regularly take in excess of two hours, which for two cities 38 miles apart is insane.

The obvious connection would be for the line to leave Manchester to the east, and broadly use the Woodhead route, and join as a spur North and South onto HS2 near Barnsley. This could connect both Leeds and Sheffield and the East Midlands to Manchester.

Both of the existing rail routes North and South Trans-pennine are far too slow. Anything which would improve connectivity would be welcome.

I would think that the maximum viable speeds that could be achieved though the Pennines would be 200-250 km/h. I can't see a 400 km/h line (like HS2) being possible.

 

[joeykins82]

Something like the attached perhaps? Apologies for the poor MS Paint job...

 

[starrymarkb]

Surely Wales has a HSL in the shape of the soon to be 140MPH capable GWML? Living in the area I certainly see benefit in a Liverpool-Manchester-Leeds route.

I think the SW would be better off with an ICE style route, new build sections of relatively high speed running (up to 125mph) bypassing the slowest bits in Devon/Berks&Hants and upgrades on the faster classic sections ie the GWML (up to 140mph with Cab Signals)

If you could get Plymouth to Totnes up to 125mph most of the way (possibly follow the A38?) you'd be looking at 10-15 mins time saving on that section alone. Going higher speed would cost more and be subject to diminishing returns.

 

[Oscar]

Not sure whether any agree, but would the money to be spent on this not be better spent in reopening Beeching-closed lines and/or subsidising proper integrated rail/bus links for towns not served by rail, including through ticketing (essentially an extension to PlusBus which is valid outside the urban area)?

Is it so desperately important to get from Manchester to Leeds in 30 mins when many sizable towns throughout the UK have no rail link at all? If there's a capacity issue why not just lengthen the existing Manchester/Leeds trains to say 12 carriages?

That said, for purely selfish reasons I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of spur from HS2 down towards central southern England to relieve the painfully slow and overcrowded links from this part of the world to the north... though even that I would place as lower priority than reopening lines as discussed above. I see social need as the big issue when it comes to improving public transport.

I think the priorities should be:
- creating an integrated timetable and fares system for all modes of public transport, infrastructure investment and journey time improvements should be made where the timetable requires
- improving buses and light rail in cities
- improving capacity and speed of Intercity links where significantly slower than by car / where there is limited capacity
- reinstituting links which would benefit the network as a whole such as East-West Rail
- reinstituting rail services which would serve significant populations (towns over about 15 000 - 20 000 people such as Wisbech and Haverhill in East Anglia - both 30 000+)
- closing the least used stations and building new stations where significant numbers of people live
- electrification and new rolling stock
- reducing the number of ticket types and encouraging walk-up travel for modal shift away from cars

I think Manchester - Leeds could be an important corridor to invest in because of the number of flows it would affect. Door-to-door journey times across the Pennines are typically noticeably longer by rail than by car and a combination of reducing journey times over the core section, better connections and affordable, integrated walk-up fares could attract many people to public transport. But I agree that without an engineering study, a price and proposed network timetables with and without the new route, we can't know whether it's worthwhile. We also haven't tried putting on much longer trains.

 

[nw1]

I think Manchester - Leeds could be an important corridor to invest in because of the number of flows it would affect. Door-to-door journey times across the Pennines are typically noticeably longer by rail than by car and a combination of reducing journey times over the core section, better connections and affordable, integrated walk-up fares could attract many people to public transport. But I agree that without an engineering study, a price and proposed network timetables with and without the new route, we can't know whether it's worthwhile. We also haven't tried putting on much longer trains.

Actually that is a good point on second thoughts: if such a link attracted people off roads and onto rail that would be a good reason in itself though from my POV the main bugbears I have with trains (and I use them all the time) are the high walk up fares outside of the Network Card area and overcrowding.

 

[Bill Stanier]

Not sure whether any agree, but would the money to be spent on this not be better spent in reopening Beeching-closed lines

I don't know if you're including Woodhead in that, but it's perhaps worth pointing out that Woodhead was not in Beeching's sights - it was a later BR closure. An object lesson for anyone who pines for BR or wants to go back to a re-nationalised railway - did any other railway close an electrified route between two major cities? Vandalism! Short sighted vandalism!

BR post Beeching closed many lines, and singled others (much of which is being re-doubled today). They closed Buxton - Matlock and almost managed to close the Settle Carlisle by greatly exaggerating the repair costs of Ribblehead Viaduct. Thankfully, they didn't get away with that one!

BR were not a safe custodian of our railway system - quite the opposite, in fact.

 

[Sidious]

Something like the attached perhaps? Apologies for the poor MS Paint job...

Not really. That alignment would take the rout broadly along the existing corridor which is densely populated.

Using Woodhead (or a similar new alignment) and then connecting with HS2 in a delta junction near Barnsley would connect both North and South. It would take long distance Leeds - Manchester and Sheffield - Manchester services off the existing routes, allowing them to expand local and express services.