Does being stranded for several hours constitute false imprisonment?

[LAX54]

Think the Fire Service get more calls than staff do to attend a failure or incident !

Not really. Most trains that stop do so for a fairly innocuous reason.

The point to start arranging for the possibility of an evacuation is probably the point that any kind of external intervention (e.g. fitters, S&T technicians) is seen as necessary.

As in - we'll send the fitters to see if they can fix it, but at the same time start planning how we will evacuate if they are unsuccessful, so when they notify that they will require a few hours to fix the plan is already in place and the staff identified, so it's just a case of "pressing go".

So they send a fitter, to have a look, of course that fitter will not be just down the road, so we are looking at 60 mins, maybe 90 for him to arrive, so there is 2 hours minimum before you start Detraining is looked at from

My daughter in law was stuck on a 333 outside Leeds for over 4 hours the other Monday (there is a thread on this somewhere) when the wires came down. Rescued by a pacer and gangplanks eventually from the adjacent track. Totally unacceptable to me.
I suspect the problem is staff do not practice various scenarios enough or not at all so when something goes wrong it's not like clockwork as it should be.
Not helped by probably the worst feature of privatisation I.e. every class of train seem to have different couplings.
Incredibly I hear Northerns new CAF train won't couple to there CAF built 333s.
K

With the wires down, and on an electric, you will be caught between a rock and a hard place ! running a diesel unit up alongside and transferring is by far the best and safest way of doing things, and should be done more often than it is now, although of course not always possible if both lines are blocked.

Couplings.. the joys of 21st Century railways, buying in stock from various makers dotted around all over the world.... bring back screw couplings and buck-eye couplings ! Gone are the days when ANY train could assist ANY train !

Things could be sped up a little, but would mean staff sitting around doing nothing for most of the time, as failures are still rare, even if they don't seem to be! but when you consider over 22,000 trains run everyday in the UK....although of course you don't think of that when it's your train

Its not just the Railway of course, you can name any Company and the 'wait time' will be somewhat long ! BT / Sky for BB or phone faults, AA / RAC you can wait a couple of hours or more ! Electrician / Plumber, unless you want to pay 'extra' then it can be over a week !

 

[mpthomson]

You jest, but the word on the street after the December 2004 Helpringham Fen accident was that the RAF were warming up a Chinook, as the air ambulance was otherwise occupied and it was initially believed that there were multiple serious injuries.

Very unlikely. They'd have tasked a neighbouring air ambulance if needed. The time taken to gather an appropriately qualified RAF medical aircrew to get to the site (they are very specialised and there are none on standby in the UK) would have been measured in hours. They wouldn't have carried civvy paramedics/doctors in that scenario.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But that’s not known at the time. I’ve lost count of the number of information emails I’ve seen that mention ‘the driver is attempting a reboot’ or similar.

A quick reboot? No, that takes minutes to rule out as a fix.

Discussions with the fleet technical team? Quite possibly, depending on what it is.

So that would be every S&T failure then, as an example? Because you can be pretty sure that if points aren’t moving or a signal is stuck at red, then there’s a train stopped nearby.

Yes, if there is a S&T *failure* i.e. a signal is not responding as it should, unless that is the only reason for the stoppage *and* it will absolutely be possible to put a workaround in place, e.g. hand signalling or giving the driver verbal permission to pass.

Its not just the Railway of course, you can name any Company and the 'wait time' will be somewhat long ! BT / Sky for BB or phone faults, AA / RAC you can wait a couple of hours or more ! Electrician / Plumber, unless you want to pay 'extra' then it can be over a week !

In none of those cases are you trapped such that you often cannot access water or toilet facilities. (The toilet facilities in your house may not work, but you would be at liberty to leave your house and ask to use a neighbour's, use public facilities where present, flush with a bucket from the water butt etc).

With the wires down, and on an electric, you will be caught between a rock and a hard place ! running a diesel unit up alongside and transferring is by far the best and safest way of doing things, and should be done more often than it is now, although of course not always possible if both lines are blocked.

Of course if the wires are not all over the track and you have bi-modes you can just drop the pan and get to the nearest platform. This is one of the best reasons for the "shunting engine" to be fitted to the electric Class 80x. Even without the complexities of diesel, there is a very strong case for all EMUs to have batteries to do this - if Li-Ion is too expensive, it should be possible to fit enough lead-acid batteries to allow a unit to be driven, say, 10 miles at 10mph, which will get you to a platform or other suitable evacuation location in the vast majority of cases, particularly as the underframe of EMUs tends to be quite empty (e.g. on a Class 350 there's one coach which has near enough nothing between the bogies).

If the wires are all over the track, you *are* going to need to evacuate, so the second this has been reported it's time to kick off the plans to do it.

So they send a fitter, to have a look, of course that fitter will not be just down the road, so we are looking at 60 mins, maybe 90 for him to arrive, so there is 2 hours minimum before you start

If you know the wait will be 2 hours, time to start the process immediately, fitter or no.

 

[delt1c]

Maybe the OP would like to post what they think should have been done.
just because the train is stationary doesn't mean nothing is happening. The longer the delay the more cost to the TOC so they will be doing everything to minimise the delay. If trains were running on the opposite track then detraining would bot be an option.
Even without trains running who would take responsibility if anyone was injured detraining.

 

[Journeyman]

I agree with the vast majority of the posting above, but it has to be accepted that "rescue" or evacuation is very, very difficult in many locations on the network.

Absolutely - in some cases, even if the train happens to be near a station! Corrour station is seventeen miles from the nearest public road.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Absolutely - in some cases, even if the train happens to be near a station! Corrour station is seventeen miles from the nearest public road.

Most stations aren't Corrour or Dent, though. And it was the case, though I don't know if it still is, that trains on more remote lines carried more emergency equipment than you might find on a stopping service from Euston to Tring to cope with a potential longer delay.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe the OP would like to post what they think should have been done.
just because the train is stationary doesn't mean nothing is happening. The longer the delay the more cost to the TOC

The TOC will be doing the utmost to minimise *overall delay minutes*, which might mean they actually choose to leave the stricken train for longer, not less time.

If trains were running on the opposite track then detraining would bot be an option.

If trains were running on the opposite track, a train-to-train transfer could be arranged within a relatively short time and would by far be the best option.

Even without trains running who would take responsibility if anyone was injured detraining.

Then the TOC needs robust processes and tools to allow for a detraining without injury. (It's not like a plane where "everyone out with some broken ankles" is preferable to "some people burning to death" - pretty much never is time of the essence to the level of seconds when evacuating a train).

 

[Journeyman]

Most stations aren't Corrour or Dent, though. And it was the case, though I don't know if it still is, that trains on more remote lines carried more emergency equipment than you might find on a stopping service from Euston to Tring to cope with a potential longer delay.

True, but it needs to be borne in mind. I've written plans to deal with very remote emergencies, but I'm afraid if I told you any more than that, I'd have to kill you (and won't, because our local conspiracy theorist has posted on this thread).

 

[Highlandspring]

It’s truly humbling to be in the presence of so many railway operations experts on this thread.

 

[anme]

The TOC will be doing the utmost to minimise *overall delay minutes*, which might mean they actually choose to leave the stricken train for longer, not less time.

Good point. This is yet another downside of the "delay repay" compensation culture, and the complex web of contracts and rules between the companies that run the railway which all probably have penalty clauses. It may make financial sense for a TOC to leave passengers on a stranded train for longer if rescuing them would delay other trains.

Taking delay repay as an example, once a passenger has been delayed for two hours, the level of compensation they are entitled to stops rising, so the TOC pays the same whether they are stuck for 2 hours or 10. Delaying other trains to rescue them may allow other passengers to make claims, and cost the TOC more money overall. Creating financial (dis)incentives for companies to behave in a particular way can have unintended consequences.

 

[al78]

Absolutely - in some cases, even if the train happens to be near a station! Corrour station is seventeen miles from the nearest public road.

It isn't as far as that from the nearest road, Rannoch station and the B846 is no more than 10 miles. The problem is as much the terrain as the distance. If for some reason a train was stuck there and it was impossible to get another train to get people back to a populated area then there is a problem, since walking to the nearest road across blanket bog in inappropriate clothing and footwear would be too much (and dangerous), and I'm not sure if there are land rover tracks that could be utilized by 4x4s to ferry people out.

Corrour is the most remote station on the network, so using the most extreme case to make a point is not a very convincing argument.

 

[al78]

Good point. This is yet another downside of the "delay repay" compensation culture, and the complex web of contracts and rules between the companies that run the railway which all probably have penalty clauses. It may make financial sense for a TOC to leave passengers on a stranded train for longer if rescuing them would delay other trains.

Taking delay repay as an example, once a passenger has been delayed for two hours, the level of compensation they are entitled to stops rising, so the TOC pays the same whether they are stuck for 2 hours or 10. Delaying other trains to rescue them may allow other passengers to make claims, and cost the TOC more money overall. Creating financial (dis)incentives for companies to behave in a particular way can have unintended consequences.

Have the financial penalty rise exponentially with delay time.

 

[Highlandspring]

It isn't as far as that from the nearest road, Rannoch station and the B846 is no more than 10 miles. The problem is as much the terrain as the distance. If for some reason a train was stuck there and it was impossible to get another train to get people back to a populated area then there is a problem, since walking to the nearest road across blanket bog in inappropriate clothing and footwear would be too much (and dangerous), and I'm not sure if there are land rover tracks that could be utilized by 4x4s to ferry people out.

There’s a good road from the A86 to Corrour but it’s private and the Estate restricts access. Network Rail has agreed access and uses it frequently; there would be no question about using it if a train became stranded there.

 

[anme]

Have the financial penalty rise exponentially with delay time.

Rising exponentially! Now we're talking about serious money. The TOC will have to pull out all the stops to rescue the passengers before it goes bankrupt.

In the mean time, because the compensation on offer is rising faster all the time the passengers are busy sabotaging the train. After a few more hours they will all be millionaires!

 

[Journeyman]

Corrour is the most remote station on the network, so using the most extreme case to make a point is not a very convincing argument.

Well, I know, but it's something I've personally had to consider and write plans for, and although it's a bit extreme, there's plenty of places that are still very inaccessible. The north end of the WCML runs through some challenging terrain with over sixty miles between stations, and a breakdown in snow north of Carlisle would present similar problems, as would a breakdown just about anywhere north of Perth on the Highland Main Line. A lot of those places would be a challenge to evacuate from.

 

[delt1c]

The TOC will be doing the utmost to minimise *overall delay minutes*, which might mean they actually choose to leave the stricken train for longer, not less time.



If trains were running on the opposite track, a train-to-train transfer could be arranged within a relatively short time and would by far be the best option.



Then the TOC needs robust processes and tools to allow for a detraining without injury. (It's not like a plane where "everyone out with some broken ankles" is preferable to "some people burning to death" - pretty much never is time of the essence to the level of seconds when evacuating a train).

I do not disagree, would just like to hear what the OP would have liked to happen, and what responsibilty the OP would have taken

 

[Journeyman]

I do not disagree, would just like to hear what the OP would have liked to happen, and what responsibilty the OP would have taken

Seems to me that the OP is still angry about something that happened twelve years ago, in which time a huge amount has changed, both inside the industry and out, and it seems a bit tragic to have not let it go. I got held up three and half hours coming back from London to Edinburgh a couple of years ago, and however stressful it was at the time, I'd forgotten about it completely by the time my Delay Repay came through.

 

[2392]

Whilst I've been following this thread, I've waited until now to add my two penneth. Being a bit flippant, I could say/ask, if I were to survive a plane crash or ship wreck could either of those events be classed as attempted murder? Using the criteria suggested/hinted at by the OP........

 

[delt1c]

Seems to me that the OP is still angry about something that happened twelve years ago, in which time a huge amount has changed, both inside the industry and out, and it seems a bit tragic to have not let it go. I got held up three and half hours coming back from London to Edinburgh a couple of years ago, and however stressful it was at the time, I'd forgotten about it completely by the time my Delay Repay came through.

OP seems to be a bit quiet

 

[Journeyman]

OP seems to be a bit quiet

Yeah...I suspect he might have been expecting a bit more sympathy/agreement.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Corrour is the most remote station on the network, so using the most extreme case to make a point is not a very convincing argument.

Most likely any rescue from Corrour would be by another train. With no OHLE to bring down, a situation that caused the line to be severed in more than one place at both ends of an incident would be really rather severe, and would be of the kind where it is likely helicopter rescue would end up being used.

But Corrour is as you say not at all typical, and realistically being stranded there for 4 hours or more while they work out what to do is a lot more reasonable than being stranded for even 2 hours on an urban London commuter route.

 

[Journeyman]

Whilst I've been following this thread, I've waited until now to add my two penneth. Being a bit flippant, I could say/ask, if I were to survive a plane crash or ship wreck could either of those events be classed as attempted murder? Using the criteria suggested/hinted at by the OP........

Very true, although the suicidal German pilot who downed a plane taking all on board with him would constitute a criminal act...you can't punish a corpse, though. Were there repercussions for his managers? I seem to recall there may have been.

 

[Journeyman]

Most likely any rescue from Corrour would be by another train. With no OHLE to bring down, a situation that caused the line to be severed in more than one place at both ends of an incident would be really rather severe, and would be of the kind where it is likely helicopter rescue would end up being used.

During the Caledonian Sleeper mobilisation phase, I did suggest that management might want to consider a Sleeper-branded helicopter, for such eventualities.

Funnily enough, that idea never got approval.

 

[Esker-pades]

Well, I know, but it's something I've personally had to consider and write plans for, and although it's a bit extreme, there's plenty of places that are still very inaccessible. The north end of the WCML runs through some challenging terrain with over sixty miles between stations, and a breakdown in snow north of Carlisle would present similar problems, as would a breakdown just about anywhere north of Perth on the Highland Main Line. A lot of those places would be a challenge to evacuate from.

Actually, a lot of the Highland Main Line would be pretty easy to evacuate from give the proximity of the A9.

 

[Llanigraham]

With the wires down, and on an electric, you will be caught between a rock and a hard place ! running a diesel unit up alongside and transferring is by far the best and safest way of doing things, and should be done more often than it is now, although of course not always possible if both lines are blocked.

Of course that presumes that there is a spare diesel unit lying around, and a suitable qualified driver, and enough staff to help with the transfer.

Things could be sped up a little, but would mean staff sitting around doing nothing for most of the time, as failures are still rare, even if they don't seem to be! but when you consider over 22,000 trains run everyday in the UK....although of course you don't think of that when it's your train

Quite! But perhaps the non-rail "experts(??)" are willing to pay for all these extra staff.

Its not just the Railway of course, you can name any Company and the 'wait time' will be somewhat long ! BT / Sky for BB or phone faults, AA / RAC you can wait a couple of hours or more ! Electrician / Plumber, unless you want to pay 'extra' then it can be over a week !

How true!

 

[Journeyman]

Actually, a lot of the Highland Main Line would be pretty easy to evacuate from give the proximity of the A9.

Are there any points where it's a long way away?

 

[Llanigraham]

Yes, if there is a S&T *failure* i.e. a signal is not responding as it should, unless that is the only reason for the stoppage *and* it will absolutely be possible to put a workaround in place, e.g. hand signalling or giving the driver verbal permission to pass.

Your lack of knowledge of the Railway Rule Book is showing.
Yes I might be able to talk a train past a signal at danger, but if the failure of that signal is locking a route that that train doesn't want to take then the train stays just where it is. Hopefully S & T might be able to get to that signal in the next hour, but you cannot presume that.
And where are you going to get a Hand Signaller from? Even in my mechanical boxes we didn't have them. If we wanted one at my Box it had to be a MOM and they could be anywhere between Gobowen and Woofferton.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Very true, although the suicidal German pilot who downed a plane taking all on board with him would constitute a criminal act...you can't punish a corpse, though. Were there repercussions for his managers? I seem to recall there may have been.

There have certainly been procedural changes prohibiting one person being left alone in the cockpit for any length of time however short - if a pilot needs the loo, a steward/ess has to go in instead.

 

[Journeyman]

There have certainly been procedural changes prohibiting one person being left alone in the cockpit for any length of time however short - if a pilot needs the loo, a steward/ess has to go in instead.

Yeah, I was aware of that. I was thinking more of discussions held in the aftermath, saying his managers were negligent for not spotting potential problems with that particular employee. I'm not sure he demonstrated much cause for concern before the incident, though.

 

[Maxfly]

During the Caledonian Sleeper mobilisation phase, I did suggest that management might want to consider a Sleeper-branded helicopter, for such eventualities.

Funnily enough, that idea never got approval.

The best way to access Corrour and Rannoch is either train or RRV (for those who's area it falls under). RRV's are soon being provided for response so it wont just be dependant on maintenance being able to provide the machine. These, if no other train is available would also be used to rescue passengers if deemed the quickest way, of course depends how many are on the train and where to take them for onward transport (20/25 minutes to Rannoch 1 way & around 30 mins to Tulloch 1 way)
Corrour is around a 40 minute drive once you leave the A86 and while most the time it's not strictly required a 4x4 would be the best vehicle for this road.
Other rural lines could well be similar to the West highland, large patch and if it is a single MOM on duty, they can be at one end of the patch with an incident of another that could see a 3hr response time.