Does being stranded for several hours constitute false imprisonment?

[2392]

Very true, although the suicidal German pilot who downed a plane taking all on board with him would constitute a criminal act...you can't punish a corpse, though. Were there repercussions for his managers? I seem to recall there may have been.

Quite agree Journeyman. I was thinking along the lines of something completely outside the control of the pilot/ships crew, like a storm causing a lightening strike on the plane or whipping the sea up to such a state it overwhelmed the ship [think the Poseidon adventure]

 

[Esker-pades]

Are there any points where it's a long way away?

Not until Moy. From Moy to Inverness they take a different route.
Between Perth and Inverness, they follow the same pass, but there are some significant height differences. There are also some points where the line is adjacent to a different B-road. There are also some points where there is a River between the railway and the road (north of Blair Atholl, for example).

 

[Cowley]

To the Op, maybe I can shed some light as to the cause(s) of your delay on 1M49 that day..

1/ The 221 Voyager working the service had 2 engines traction isolated out of 5 coming off of Laira depot that morning.

2/ When coming back from Penzance with 1M49 another engine reverted to idling leaving Camborne - and the other two did the same thing after Bodmin Parkway rendering the train a complete failure on Largin bank.

3/ Single line working was implemented over the down main between Lostwithiel and Largin - which is why you saw other trains passing.

4/ When the assisting Voyager eventually arrived from Plymouth the two sets wouldn't couple due to the severity of the gradient.

5/After several attempts a coupling was made and permission was obtained to proceed towards Largin and Plymouth.

6/On arrival at Liskeard somebody pulled the pass com while the train was at a stand with the doors released so that had to be reset before the train could continue.

7/ The train failed again as a pair at Menheniot (right on the viaduct!) with a PWM fault - which basically means that the two sets were not communicating with each other through the coupler, but subsequent attempts to uncouple and recouple were unsuccessfull so there we now had the unenviable situation of having two trains in a signal section.

8/ As it was now a number of hours after the initial failure at Largin, the traction motors had cooled down sufficiently on the failed set for power to be regained so the assisting unit carried on to Plymouth on it's own with the rear set following it once the signallers pemission had been obtained.

It was an unbelievable chain of events really - but that's exactly what happened as I was the Driver.

That sounds like an absolute nightmare. One thing after another going wrong.

 

[Bikeman78]

And of course part of the reason, were passengers taking the law into their own hands ! once one person had jumped ship, then it was on a rapid, very rapid decline,

It was something like two hours into the incident before people started breaking out. Many of the trains were packed, some had no toilets, others had broken toilets. I'm not advocating people breaking out but frankly I'm not surprised they did. The old dump on the track toilets carried on working through incidents like this. The modern ones stop as soon as you lose power.

 

[RLBH]

If the railway industry cant manage this, then the emergency services will be needed, or as a very last resort, the armed forces.

I'm not quite sure what role you envisage the armed forces having in evacuating a stranded train. The extreme case where the sleeper is stranded at Corrour, maybe (though these days that would probably be a Coast Guard job) but short of getting in a big helicopter to rescue people from some isolated spot, or a major disaster, railway industry resources or the emergency services will be on hand well before the armed forces can do anything.

Not until Moy. From Moy to Inverness they take a different route.
Between Perth and Inverness, they follow the same pass, but there are some significant height differences. There are also some points where the line is adjacent to a different B-road. There are also some points where there is a River between the railway and the road (north of Blair Atholl, for example).

There was an incident ten or fifteen years ago where mountain rescue teams were called out to a stranded train near Moy. Very much the exception, though.

In general, attitudes towards evacuation will depend on the line. If you're trapped at Corrour, Dalnaspidal or Dent, you probably went out expecting a few hours on the train. Whether it's three or five doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things, though it gets really annoying when nobody tells you what's going on. If you've jumped on for a fifteen minute hop between two fairly major towns on a busy route, that two-hour delay will feel completely unreasonable.

 

[TheEdge]

Corrour is the most remote station on the network, so using the most extreme case to make a point is not a very convincing argument.

But if people are talking about having legally enforced rules about rescuing and evacuation of trains then the rules need to account for Corrour and Dent just as much as they'd allow for the same situation at Wandsworth Common or Bethnal Green.

 

[Esker-pades]

I'm not quite sure what role you envisage the armed forces having in evacuating a stranded train. The extreme case where the sleeper is stranded at Corrour, maybe (though these days that would probably be a Coast Guard job) but short of getting in a big helicopter to rescue people from some isolated spot, or a major disaster, railway industry resources or the emergency services will be on hand well before the armed forces can do anything.

There was an incident ten or fifteen years ago where mountain rescue teams were called out to a stranded train near Moy. Very much the exception, though.

In general, attitudes towards evacuation will depend on the line. If you're trapped at Corrour, Dalnaspidal or Dent, you probably went out expecting a few hours on the train. Whether it's three or five doesn't matter that much in the grand scheme of things, though it gets really annoying when nobody tells you what's going on. If you've jumped on for a fifteen minute hop between two fairly major towns on a busy route, that two-hour delay will feel completely unreasonable.

I would have thought Dalnaspidal would be quite a reasonable place to evacuate from. The route there is double track and opposite the A9. The river is the other side too, so it doesn't get in the way.

 

[RLBH]

I would have thought Dalnaspidal would be quite a reasonable place to evacuate from. The route there is double track and opposite the A9. The river is the other side too, so it doesn't get in the way.

Realistically yes, it's a fairly easy place to evacuate from. The point there was that if you do wind up in the 'just twenty more minutes' scenario, it's not really the end of the world.

 

[6Gman]

Maybe I'm just lucky, but lengthy delays are pretty rare in my experience.

Thinking of recent incidents I can't really think of one where evacuation would have made any sense.

One was when we got stuck behind a poorly West Coast Rail Charter. We were heading for Crewe and could have been evacuated at Hartford. No thanks. The 60" (or so) delay was less than the delay evacuation would have involved.

Another was Ludlow to Crewe when the 158 (or 175?) in front of us chose to burst into flames. We spent a lot of time admiring the South Shropshire scenery, and could have been evacuated at Craven Arms. Even though the delay was around 90" staying aboard was by far the better choice.

Granted, neither train was overfull and the toilets were functioning, but neither train could offer refreshments.

The idea of evacuating onto the ballast in the middle of the countryside seems the absolute, complete last option to consider.

Toddling across a ramp from an Up train to a rescue train on the Down seems precarious to say the least and - of course - then takes you in the wrong direction!

There are no easy answers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Toddling across a ramp from an Up train to a rescue train on the Down seems precarious to say the least and - of course - then takes you in the wrong direction!

It's not precarious. The ramps used are designed for that use.

 

[Eccles1983]

It's not precarious. The ramps used are designed for that use.

Any experience of this? Or is this you just assuming again.

I can assure you that its a very limited amount of ramps that are suitable for this. I've seen it done with train mounted ramps, its is fraught with danger.

 

[TurbostarFan]

Toddling across a ramp from an Up train to a rescue train on the Down seems precarious to say the least and - of course - then takes you in the wrong direction!

True. Couldn't you run a train on the opposite track in the wrong direction to avoid that though? Without meaning to go off topic, how do you get luggage between trains? Also, what happens if passengers refuse to move and insist on remaining where they are?

 

[Llanigraham]

It's not precarious. The ramps used are designed for that use.

Very good in theory but those that have actual experience of them will tell you it is different in practice.

 

[JN114]

Some (very) modern fleets have train-train evacuation ramps stored on board. They come with handrails and are adaptable to a variety of lengths. However very few train-train evacuations in my experience actually do it with bridges; because it relies on the ramp being able to be secured at both ends.

 

[Bantamzen]

Just thinking about the stranded 333 last week, & without trying to be an "expert", but it was I believe Leeds bound & stuck between the downed wires at Armley & the loop at Kirkstall. Add to the maybe at least another couple of units that rolled up behind it before the word could get out to stop all Aire & Wharfe services, and you are left with at least a couple of units without power & stuck on the wrong side of the incident depot-wise. So really its not hard to imagine that trying to organise either getting units back up west away from the incident, or trying to get a rescue train to the original from Leeds or Neville Hill would have been a challenge to say the least. At best there might have been a couple of DMU units on the "right" side of the incident, but they presumably would have to wait until all other services were cleared out in front of them before getting down to Armley. I imagine Northern had to wait until engineers could clear the wires & allow safe working past the incident to get any rescue train out from Leeds? If so, then it is not surprising it took the time it did.

Maybe a line evacuation might have been an option, but where the stranded unit ended up isn't a great place for an evac. A deep cutting with wires down ahead, and a fairly remote area behind when it comes to access to a road, or maybe canal. And in less than ideal weather conditions, being damp & foggy in Leeds as I remember, it could have been more dangerous to risk that than wait until passengers or the unit could be moved.

It reminds me of an incident many years ago when the 333 I was travelling on hit a person on the line just east of the Thackley tunnel. With the driver unable to continue driving due to shock, and the train stopped in an area surrounded with fields in pitch darkness, there was little choice but to wait for the emergency services, the engineers & a replacement driver to make their way to the incident, which basically was across very muddy fields. So we were stuck for the best part of 3 hours until everything was in place for us to continue. Of course had we waited long enough, a mile or so down the track a new station would eventually have appeared to maybe allow an evac, although I suspect no-one would have been allowed onto the ballast until all evidence of the unfortunate soul were cleared away. Sadly, no matter what contingencies are in place & triggered in any incident, circumstances can render them useless & you have to apply plans 'B','C' & 'D'.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Sorry people but I find it strange yet again that CrossCountry trains have a train running 3 to 4 hours late. This time it was the 08:20 from Aberdeen to Taunton which was 3 hours 30 minutes late from Montrose due to a broken down train. From Dundee it ran non-stop to Haymarket and Edinburgh where it terminated.

In my opinion, passengers could have at least been de-trained at Montrose where it was delayed at.

If it was an incident resulting in a fatality then obviously that's different.

Sorry but it doesn't look good for CrossCountry having to fork out goodness knows how much money in compensation potentially.

 

[anme]

In my opinion, passengers could have at least been de-trained at Montrose where it was delayed at.

Why? Is there something good to see in Montrose while they wait?

 

[Darandio]

In my opinion, passengers could have at least been de-trained at Montrose where it was delayed at.

What use would that be? Where would they go? There were no other trains for them to get on.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Good point, thinking about it. Sorry. Luckily it's not a hot day other wise fresh air at Montrose would've been better.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What use would that be? Where would they go? There were no other trains for them to get on.

Some may have chosen to phone for a pickup or a taxi if in a hurry to get somewhere. The presumption should also be that if a stuck train is at a public platform and will be there for some time that the doors should be released if the train fits, or local door otherwise.

 

[Journeyman]

Some may have chosen to phone for a pickup or a taxi if in a hurry to get somewhere. The presumption should also be that if a stuck train is at a public platform and will be there for some time that the doors should be released if the train fits, or local door otherwise.

Are there issues with this if the train is operated by a TOC that would not normally call at the station, i.e. an LNER service at Chathill?

 

[Darandio]

Do we know if it was stuck at a platform?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are there issues with this if the train is operated by a TOC that would not normally call at the station, i.e. an LNER service at Chathill?

I don't know if rules were being broken, but I've been stuck at Tring on LM (on a train that was supposed to stop there) and a VT was stopped on the down fast platform and released its doors. There was some interchange between the two as it looked rather like the LM wasn't going to go past MK (in the event it terminated at Bletchley).

 

[Suraggu]

False imprisonment? Seriously?

No not at all.

 

[Highlandspring]

Do we know if it was stuck at a platform?

If we're talking about 1V60, it wasn't at a platform.

 

[TurbostarFan]

Some (very) modern fleets have train-train evacuation ramps stored on board. They come with handrails and are adaptable to a variety of lengths. However very few train-train evacuations in my experience actually do it with bridges; because it relies on the ramp being able to be secured at both ends.

Couldn't railway staff or BTP officers do this by standing on each end?

 

[atraindriver]

<deleted>

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are you seriously suggesting that the folding wheelchair ramps fitted to most UK units, which are built to a design which has now been around for decades, were designed for use as between-train bridges even though nobody really considered mandatory evacuation until a couple of years ago?

No, those aren't, but:

https://www.workingatheightltd.com/...in_access/bespoke_train_evacuation_bridge.php
(Train evacuation bridge product)

 

[atraindriver]

<deleted>

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. But they're not fitted to most trains, are they?

No, but could potentially be taken to site from elsewhere. Though that does admittedly increase evacuation time.