Does the Government know how people are behaving

[BJames]

If you dig beyond the headline pictures, which were taken with telephoto lenses to compress perspective (which makes objects appear nearer than they really are), you will find other pictures that show social distancing has largely been followed on beaches with the clusters appearing to be small family units (and there's nothing wrong with that). Of course that doesn't make a headline though.

Part of the crowding problem though has been caused by the government's ill-conceived reopening process. There are plenty of families at home, parents furloughed, kids off school and its hot. Plenty of "normal" places like theme parks, swimming pools and lidos, etc are still closed so when it gets hot where does a restless family decide to go - the seaside, because they know its open. And I don't blame anyone who had that thought. And as for the councils that are saying "don't come here" - disgraceful - I hope people who are spurned now remember that when those local economies are in a mess next winter, and do NOT help out when those areas are begging for business and support.

And as for those who think we are setting ourselves up for another major lockdown, I don't agree. The country is much better set up to deal with the virus now, the majority are taking precautions, and it appears that large outdoor events are not the catalysts for infection they have been made out to be anyway. Scientists such as dim-Whitty / half-Whitty are merely trying to cover their own asses and defend their past positions - they have taken a science-over-emotion approach that was, and is, unrealistic and unnecessary and has caused the country huge economic misery for years.

I 100% agree too. I have friends who are currently in Christchurch, and who popped along the coast a short distance yesterday to Bournemouth. Yes, it's busy. But generally people are sitting in their own little bubbles.

The councils in Bournemouth also need to realise pretty quickly that telling people who have driven 4 hours to get there that they need to go home is not going to be met with understanding. Whether they should have driven that far in the first place is another debate but if I'd got that far I wouldn't be just turning around and going home.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And as for those who think we are setting ourselves up for another major lockdown, I don't agree. The country is much better set up to deal with the virus now, the majority are taking precautions, and it appears that large outdoor events are not the catalysts for infection they have been made out to be anyway. Scientists such as dim-Whitty / half-Whitty are merely trying to cover their own asses and defend their past positions - they have taken a science-over-emotion approach that was, and is, unrealistic and unnecessary and has caused the country huge economic misery for years.

Do you mean "science over economy"? No decision of this kind should be taken emotionally, ever. Emotion (mental health) does have to be considered, but objectively.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The councils in Bournemouth also need to realise pretty quickly that telling people who have driven 4 hours to get there that they need to go home is not going to be met with understanding. Whether they should have driven that far in the first place is another debate but if I'd got that far I wouldn't be just turning around and going home.

They'd be better recommending looking elsewhere - the whole South Coast is beaches, pretty much - drive until you find a quiet one!

As to those locals saying "but I can't find a quiet time to go out for a walk" - try 6am or 10pm - it won't be busy with people who can't stay over then! I think there is a big element of people having liked it without the crowds, but that's simply not how it works. If you live in a tourist area there will be tourists.

 

[Skymonster]

Do you mean "science over economy"? No decision of this kind should be taken emotionally, ever. Emotion (mental health) does have to be considered, but objectively.

Its clear Whitty has pushed the science to the exclusion of all else, which had totally failed to consider people's emotional well-being and the economy. Unfortunately, our leaders have listened to him. The emotional and economic well being of the majority is at least as important, more so in reality, than the impact of the virus on a small minority. I really hope when this is all over there is an in-depth inquiry and that Whitty is held to account for the damage his input has caused, and he is then vilified and ousted.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Its clear Whitty has pushed the science to the exclusion of all else

Which is his job. The politicians are the ones whose job it is to make a decision, and they need to take into account wider things like the economy.

He advises from a medical perspective, he doesn't make decisions. He's done that very well. It's Boris and the Cabinet you should be villifying if you feel their decisions were wrong.

 

[Huntergreed]

Its clear Whitty has pushed the science to the exclusion of all else, which had totally failed to consider people's emotional well-being and the economy. Unfortunately, our leaders have listened to him. The emotional and economic well being of the majority is at least as important, more so in reality, than the impact of the virus on a small minority. I really hope when this is all over there is an in-depth inquiry and that Whitty is held to account for the damage his input has caused, and he is then vilified and ousted.

To be fair, that's exactly what Whitty is employed to do. He's a very clever and talented epidemiologist, but this means that it's his job to advise the government on all issues from a medical perspective. It's down to the ministers to take in the opinions of other experts, including economists, in order to make a balanced and rational decision. This seems to have been happening more recently which is encouraging to see and hopefully before too long life will start to feel a little more normal.

 

[yorksrob]

From listening to the radio, it sounds as though a lot of the issues at beaches are caused by excessive littering. It seems to be the same mindset of going to a festival and leaving your tent behind.

 

[JB_B]

For England, the central estimate of infected people in the community (excl hospitals and care homes) for 8 June-21 June is ~51K. (appx 1 in 1100).

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Infection Survey pilot - Office for National Statistics

Initial data from the COVID-19 Infection Survey. This survey is being delivered in partnership with IQVIA, Oxford University and UK Biocentre.

www.ons.gov.uk

The central estimate for 31 May-13 June was ~33K ( appx 1 in 1700 - the widely reported figure quoted by Boris Johnson when announcing the relaxations of restrictions)

Coronavirus (COVID-19) Infection Survey pilot - Office for National Statistics

Initial data from the COVID-19 Infection Survey. This survey is being delivered in partnership with IQVIA, Oxford University and UK Biocentre.

www.ons.gov.uk

The ONS infection survey is likely to be a more accurate indicator than the "new case" figures (which are confounded by the ever-changing testing regime); it's a lagging indicator but will have less of a lag than the hospital death figures.


This means it's quite probable that there already has been an uptick in infections in England even before the further relaxations from 4 July.

Next data for this series should be out next Friday - it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

[bramling]

They'd be better recommending looking elsewhere - the whole South Coast is beaches, pretty much - drive until you find a quiet one!

As to those locals saying "but I can't find a quiet time to go out for a walk" - try 6am or 10pm - it won't be busy with people who can't stay over then! I think there is a big element of people having liked it without the crowds, but that's simply not how it works. If you live in a tourist area there will be tourists.

I don’t think this is the issue at all. Many locals will ordinarily benefit from tourism and appreciate the money it brings in. There's plenty of less-touristy coastal towns which are pretty unpleasant due to the lack of employment, and the social consequences this causes. Even some of the well-known places like Blackpool and Skegness score highly on deprivation.

The issue is things like the place being trashed, chronic traffic congestion clashing with the working week, people defacating, et cetera. These seem reasonable gripes to me.

Ultimately what we're seeing now is not normal but exceptional, and locals are getting all the disbenefits with little tangible in return.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The issue is things like the place being trashed, chronic traffic congestion clashing with the working week, people defacating, et cetera. These seem reasonable gripes to me.

I agree with litter, and would love to see more enforcement of this generally. Traffic congestion is just a fact of living in a tourist place in summer, and "toilet" issues are caused by Councils failing to reopen toilets because they are misguidedly using this as a means of keeping people away, which it won't (if you've got to go...)

 

[philosopher]

I 100% agree too. I have friends who are currently in Christchurch, and who popped along the coast a short distance yesterday to Bournemouth. Yes, it's busy. But generally people are sitting in their own little bubbles.

The councils in Bournemouth also need to realise pretty quickly that telling people who have driven 4 hours to get there that they need to go home is not going to be met with understanding. Whether they should have driven that far in the first place is another debate but if I'd got that far I wouldn't be just turning around and going home.

People at the moment can’t realistically go abroad for the beach. Plus they can’t yet visit pubs, restaurants, musuems, etc. Going to the beach is one of the few leisure activities outside the home permitted. The overcrowding is due to this, not people not behaving themselves.

 

[bramling]

I agree with litter, and would love to see more enforcement of this generally. Traffic congestion is just a fact of living in a tourist place in summer, and "toilet" issues are caused by Councils failing to reopen toilets because they are misguidedly using this as a means of keeping people away, which it won't (if you've got to go...)

I’m not sure there’s ever going to be enough toilet capacity for that level of crowding, especially with other de-facto facilities like pubs and restaurants closed. Add in social distancing (and the fact that public toilets may very well be the thing in the current beach environment where infection could spread), and I don’t think it’s unreasonable for councils to be saying “we just can’t cope with this at present”.

Ultimately the government has created this situation, yet has shown no leadership in managing it, instead simply dumping the problem on local areas to simply get on with it. Of course the government has completely lost all ability to influence behaviours thanks to the Cummings affair, so if they are aware they probably know there’s little they can do.

 

[yorkie]

The longer things remain closed, the more people will be driven 'underground' . Earlier in this thread I linked to a tweet from someone who pointed out that youngsters who gathered in Kelvingrove Park in Glasgow had nothing else to do, as all activities for them are suspended.

What do the lockdown enthusiast brigade think will happen if thousands of young people have literally nothing to do? There are loads of people who usually run activities for young people but are currently prevented from doing so. Is this at all sensible or wise? Can the people who make these decisions, or who lobby to delay reopenings of schools, clubs and other activities, not see the bigger picture? I find it absolutely incredible, shocking and extremely disturbing that they seemingly can not.

Those who want long and/or harsh lockdowns and/or oppose re-openings are effectively demanding that the police spend every single day breaking up gatherings, for example:

Notting Hill: Police officers attacked at illegal street party

Met Police Commissioner Cressida Dick condemns the "utterly unacceptable" behaviour.

www.bbc.co.uk

Police officers have been attacked while attempting to disperse crowds at an illegal party for the second night in a row.

The Met Police said objects were thrown at officers at an "unlicensed music event" in Notting Hill, west London, in the early hours of Friday.

A witness said there were "about 150-200 people" present with violence breaking out from about midnight.

Is it reasonable for the 'lockdown enthusiast' brigade to put such a strain on our police force? Is it reasonable for them to demand actions which have severely detrimental consequences for the quality of life of residents who live near hotspots where such gatherings are likely to be held? If this continues it could spiral further out of control.

The choice is between getting back to normal, or risk more and more disorder and antisocial behaviour, which will put huge strains on community cohesion and on the emergency services, especially the police force, who have a hard enough job as it is.

It is becoming increasingly clear to me that the lockdown enthusiast brigade are incapable of seeing the bigger picture.

BTW I totally condemn anyone who attends illegal events, or who gets drunk in parks, or who behaves in an anti-social way. But the reality is that a significant minority of people are going to behave like this if things continue, and I do not think it is wise to continue down the current dangerous path of depriving many people of constructive activities and things to do, as the results of such actions are abundantly clear to see.

 

[alex397]

If you dig beyond the headline pictures, which were taken with telephoto lenses to compress perspective (which makes objects appear nearer than they really are), you will find other pictures that show social distancing has largely been followed on beaches with the clusters appearing to be small family units (and there's nothing wrong with that). Of course that doesn't make a headline though.

Part of the crowding problem though has been caused by the government's ill-conceived reopening process. There are plenty of families at home, parents furloughed, kids off school and its hot. Plenty of "normal" places like theme parks, swimming pools and lidos, etc are still closed so when it gets hot where does a restless family decide to go - the seaside, because they know its open. And I don't blame anyone who had that thought. And as for the councils that are saying "don't come here" - disgraceful - I hope people who are spurned now remember that when those local economies are in a mess next winter, and do NOT help out when those areas are begging for business and support.

And as for those who think we are setting ourselves up for another major lockdown, I don't agree. The country is much better set up to deal with the virus now, the majority are taking precautions, and it appears that large outdoor events are not the catalysts for infection they have been made out to be anyway. Scientists such as dim-Whitty / half-Whitty are merely trying to cover their own asses and defend their past positions - they have taken a science-over-emotion approach that was, and is, unrealistic and unnecessary and has caused the country huge economic misery for years.

I’m well aware of the media’s use of telephoto lenses to make things look worse than it is. But it’s not just about being on the beaches, it’s getting to them - usually along narrow paths. Take Camber Sands for example - it has narrow paths In most places to reach the beach.

Talking about Camber - I have friends living there and they have had an awful few days. The roads leading there have been completely blocked by badly parked cars and the sheer volume of traffic. They have huge difficulties gettting to work, and other villagers have also been stuck. The Stagecoach 102 bus route was suspended on that section too. And if a bus can’t get through, neither can emergency services. Now, these issues might not have such a big impact on coronavirus, but this is my point about common sense - why would these people drive to Camber, see how hugely busy it is, and just dump their cars. Many have also left behind tonnes of rubbish too. Regardless of coronavirus, that doesn’t sound like much common sense! ive also seen reports that nearby beaches, such as at Lydd on Sea, were much less busy with people practicing social distancing, and also taking their rubbish home. That sounds like more common sense, rather than heading to a beach youll know will be crowded, blocking up the roads and leaving rubbish behind.

Im not sure why you think a science-over-emotion approach is a bad option. Science should always be more important than emotion, otherwise we’ll be burning witches again (an exaggeration of course, but emotion should not win over science).

 

[BJames]

True, the littering is really disappointing. And reports of refuse collectors being abused... why!? They're trying to help keep things as clean as possible, there's no need for the abuse.

The thing about people parking wherever is that they have been happily taking the fines as basically "parking charges" to save themselves driving round for another 2 hours. Unless the fine amount is significantly increased this will probably keep happening.

 

[alex397]

They'd be better recommending looking elsewhere - the whole South Coast is beaches, pretty much - drive until you find a quiet one!

As to those locals saying "but I can't find a quiet time to go out for a walk" - try 6am or 10pm - it won't be busy with people who can't stay over then! I think there is a big element of people having liked it without the crowds, but that's simply not how it works. If you live in a tourist area there will be tourists.

I think some police have been advising people to try another beach rather than go home. This is apparently what they were doing at Camber according the the local ITV news last night.

I’ve heard some of the other beaches nearby, such as Lydd on Sea, were fairly quiet. But they’re not sandy.

I have friends in Camber. They recognise that the beach doesn’t belong to them, and tourists are important to the local economy. But that doesn’t mean they’re not allowed to be annoyed when the road becomes completely blocked. Just because someone lives in as touristy area, it doesn’t mean they can’t complain about certain issues.

And some beaches have continued to be busy after 10pm. Such as at Camber, and I believe Hayling Island still had very busy roads past 10pm last night.

 

[yorksrob]

On the plus side, once the pubs are back open, people will have something else to do instead.

 

[mmh]

On the plus side, once the pubs are back open, people will have something else to do instead.

And the press will have something new to complain about!

 

[yorksrob]

And the press will have something new to complain about!

Undoubtedly so.

But at least pubs by their nature are more dispersed than the big beaches/beauty spots.

 

[bramling]

From listening to the radio, it sounds as though a lot of the issues at beaches are caused by excessive littering. It seems to be the same mindset of going to a festival and leaving your tent behind.

Of relevance to this is it does seem (from observations on transport this week) to be mainly younger people who are out and about. In places the atmosphere has been what one would associate with transport to and from something line Glastonbury. There does seem a blissful lack of awareness of what is highly likely to come in terms of the economic effects of all this.

 

[MikeWM]

Of relevance to this is it does seem (from observations on transport this week) to be mainly younger people who are out and about.

Which makes sense, because it seems fair to deduce that those furloughed are going to tend younger than the population as a whole, as the jobs younger people tend to do seem to correlate to those industries currently closed.

Though I've not actually seen a demographic breakdown of those furloughed - has one been produced?

 

[bramling]

The longer things remain closed, the more people will be driven 'underground' . Earlier in this thread I linked to a tweet from someone who pointed out that youngsters who gathered in Kelvingrove Park in Glasgow had nothing else to do, as all activities for them are suspended.

What do the lockdown enthusiast brigade think will happen if thousands of young people have literally nothing to do? There are loads of people who usually run activities for young people but are currently prevented from doing so. Is this at all sensible or wise? Can the people who make these decisions, or who lobby to delay reopenings of schools, clubs and other activities, not see the bigger picture? I find it absolutely incredible, shocking and extremely disturbing that they seemingly can not.

Do you *really* think that if the government was to find a way of opening up schools over the summer holidays, young people would voluntarily attend?

Something has gone wrong somewhere if young people really can't find something to do except to hang out in parks, or whatever. One young person I know has developed an interest in trading stocks & shares online, another has helped his parents redecorate a couple of rooms at home, another has spent the time playing strategy games. I don't disagree that this will have been hard for people, but the idea that there is "literally nothing to do" is completely wide of the mark IMO.

 

[Jayden99]

...There does seem a blissful lack of awareness of what is highly likely to come in terms of the economic effects of all this.

To be fair, the economy is tanked whether or not I sit at home stressing about the economic outlook of the UK or go to the beach, nowt I as a young person can do about it so I may as well get a tan (Not that I've had much downtime, I've been working right the way through)

 

[yorksrob]

Of relevance to this is it does seem (from observations on transport this week) to be mainly younger people who are out and about. In places the atmosphere has been what one would associate with transport to and from something line Glastonbury. There does seem a blissful lack of awareness of what is highly likely to come in terms of the economic effects of all this.

If I were a young person (which I'm not), the impending economic clouds would make me even more likely to want to get blotto with my mates for some relief. It would just help if they shoved the rubbish in the boot when they went home.

 

[yorksrob]

Something has gone wrong somewhere if young people really can't find something to do except to hang out in parks, or whatever. One young person I know has developed an interest in trading stocks & shares online, another has helped his parents redecorate a couple of rooms at home, another has spent the time playing strategy games. I don't disagree that this will have been hard for people, but the idea that there is "literally nothing to do" is completely wide of the mark IMO.

That's lovely, but most young people (including myself in the dim and distant past) want to socialise with other young people. It is the natural order of things.

 

[mmh]

Do you *really* think that if the government was to find a way of opening up schools over the summer holidays, young people would voluntarily attend?

Something has gone wrong somewhere if young people really can't find something to do except to hang out in parks, or whatever. One young person I know has developed an interest in trading stocks & shares online, another has helped his parents redecorate a couple of rooms at home, another has spent the time playing strategy games. I don't disagree that this will have been hard for people, but the idea that there is "literally nothing to do" is completely wide of the mark IMO.

As an example of things the young could do to amuse themselves, trading stocks and shares really must be the ultimate "let them eat cake."

 

[scotrail158713]

Something has gone wrong somewhere if young people really can't find something to do except to hang out in parks, or whatever. One young person I know has developed an interest in trading stocks & shares online, another has helped his parents redecorate a couple of rooms at home, another has spent the time playing strategy games. I don't disagree that this will have been hard for people, but the idea that there is "literally nothing to do" is completely wide of the mark IMO.

Well a lot of them won’t have seen each other for months. And beyond going to a park, what can they do with each other just now?

 

[yorkie]

Do you *really* think that if the government was to find a way of opening up schools over the summer holidays, young people would voluntarily attend?

I run voluntary activities which young people choose to attend.

If I am able to run activities during the summer holidays, I will do so, and they will be well attended.

I have not been able to run any activities for over 3 months now, and I have no idea when I will be allowed to resume them.

Something has gone wrong somewhere if young people really can't find something to do except to hang out in parks, or whatever....

Yes, something has gone seriously wrong: all their clubs and activities have been cancelled.