Does the location of some depots detract from the running of the railway?

[DimTim]

Out of interest does the driver having worked from Nottingham then work the 0748 departure to Norwich after say 30 minutes break?

 

[bramling]

I was always amused to think that Hitchin was a fairly important train crew depot , but the nearest stock berthing sidings was at Letchworth (but not that far away)

Hitchin is something of a silly depot, as certainly in recent years many duties seem to start with a trip on the cushions to somewhere. Apart from being inefficient, it can’t do much good for performance especially during disruption. I guess it’s only survived as a depot because of the Letchworth sidings.

 

[pompeyfan]

The one that quite often comes up on here is the argument for and against a SWR crew depot at Exeter St David’s.

When anything goes wrong west of Yeovil, it’s usually a case of SWR just turning services at Yeovil Junction with there being no real ability to run a shuttle service between the obstruction and Exeter, however this can also work in the opposite manner if the obstruction is between Axminster and Exeter. An Exeter based crew on arrival at Axminster would not be able to form a return journey back towards Salisbury as they’d more than likely be requiring a PNB or finishing their duty, this would then require a relief crew to be taxied to the train, the same issue is often found with Weymouth based crews when there’s an issue between Poole and Weymouth.

 

[choochoochoo]

Hitchin is something of a silly depot, as certainly in recent years many duties seem to start with a trip on the cushions to somewhere. Apart from being inefficient, it can’t do much good for performance especially during disruption. I guess it’s only survived as a depot because of the Letchworth sidings.

I think it doesn’t help that Hitchin drivers don’t sign 700s which frequently stop through the station.

But I’m old school and think all drivers should sign all traction at their TOC.

 

[NSE]

I think it doesn’t help that Hitchin drivers don’t sign 700s which frequently stop through the station.

But I’m old school and think all drivers should sign all traction at their TOC.

Looking forward to seeing all LNWR staff queuing up to sign the 139’s

 

[dk1]

Out of interest does the driver having worked from Nottingham then work the 0748 departure to Norwich after say 30 minutes break?

It would have to be that driver or another travelling pass onboard.

 

[43066]

But I’m old school and think all drivers should sign all traction at their TOC.

I’ll look forward to learning sprinters and 170s…

Of course, common sense would be for Leeds based XC/LNER crew to sign the route and traction and just take the train to Sheffield and be relieved, thus saving on the taxi entirely. Likely the situation under BR, but such an arrangement today would be a licence to print money for the TOC loaning the staff.

Not really because it was only a couple of services per day, and you’d then use up XC/LNER crews who would need to pass (or themselves be taxied) back to Leeds. They would also have to maintain the route and traction knowledge, which can be tricky when it isn’t used regularly.

That would all likely to be more disruptive/expensive than sending EMR crews in a taxi Derby.

 

[driverd]

Not really because it was only a couple of services per day, and you’d then use up XC/LNER crews who would need to pass (or themselves be taxied) back to Leeds. They would also have to maintain the route and traction knowledge, which can be tricky when it isn’t used regularly.

Hardly. XC crews sign both the route and traction, LNER most of the route and all traction. The work was 3 trains either way each day (think one was ECS), and certainly XC work could be interworked with other diagrams if planned accordingly.

That would all likely to be more disruptive/expensive than sending EMR crews in a taxi Derby.

It'd be a similar situation to TPE crews at Scarborough working the Yorkshire wolds coast services or Southern drivers at Redhill working the Reading services.

 

[43066]

Hardly. XC crews sign both the route and traction, LNER most of the route and all traction. The work was 3 trains either way each day (think one was ECS), and certainly XC work could be interworked with other diagrams if planned accordingly.

Most of the route isn’t all of the route, and EMR crews in a taxi made sense for that arrangement - especially as there isn’t a driver depot at Sheffield, so you’d need to taxi the EMR crews up there in any case to relieve early services, or you’d need the LNER crews signing all the way to Derby. LNER also lost HST competence while EMR still had it IIRC.

Taxis like that happen in various places and are often more efficient than maintaining little used route and traction knowledge. Hence the trend is for depot specific route (a la Thameslink). Massive unwieldy route cards are largely a thing of the past on the passenger side.

 

[Efini92]

I’ll look forward to learning sprinters and 170s…

I loved sprinters, 170’s not so much.
Bring back pacers

 

[infobleep]

It depends on whether train or crew depots are in question, but the current week-long closure to trains of the North Downs line in its entirety seems to be because the crew depot is at Reading, i.e. one end of the route, meaning that a part rail, part bus replacement service with trains reversing at either Guildford or Blackwater has been thought impossible because getting train crews from Reading to a train pick-up point isn't being done. There must be numerous similar examples around the country.

More regularly there isn't a train between 22:22 and 0:22 Monday to Friday from Guildford to Gatwick Airport and similar on Saturday's due to train crew and the depot being at Reading. Trains at 22:21 and 0:23 respectively Monday to Friday.

On Sundays the trains are at 22:00 and 23:49.

 

[driverd]

Most of the route isn’t all of the route, and EMR crews in a taxi made sense for that arrangement - especially as there isn’t a driver depot at Sheffield, so you’d need to taxi the EMR crews up there in any case to relieve early services, or you’d need the LNER crews signing all the way to Derby. LNER also lost HST competence while EMR still had it IIRC.

Taxis like that happen in various places and are often more efficient than maintaining little used route and traction knowledge. Hence the trend is for depot specific route (a la Thameslink). Massive unwieldy route cards are largely a thing of the past on the passenger side.

As a former train planner, I'm well aware of the merits of taxi use, this, to my eye, isnt a good example. XC crew, who already sign Neville Hill, all of the road to Derby, have a train crew depot at Derby and sign the traction, would save (best estimate) around £900 per day in taxi fares. Even if you didn't interwork the diagrams and just had crew head onto Derby and pass back (couldnt be done bringing crew from Derby because of the timings), you'd still be making a massive saving.

Then, of course, there's the fatigue benefits of not having crew book on and off at ungodly hours to get to a train over 100 miles away. Not to mention the safety arguments around middle of the night, long distance taxi rides.

MML/EMT/EMR Derby would also then get to make efficiency savings of not seeing their crew have the extension from Sheffield to Leeds on their cards, in addition.

 

[43066]

Even if you didn't interwork the diagrams and just had crew head onto Derby and pass back (couldnt be done bringing crew from Derby because of the timings), you'd still be making a massive saving.

You’d likely then end up with an inefficient use of the XC crew, which might easily eclipse £900 per day in terms of value. As a former train planner, you’re presumably aware that amount is chicken feed in the context of a system where delays can rack up hundreds per minute.

In any case the arrangement no longer exists.

Then, of course, there's the fatigue benefits of not having crew book on and off at ungodly hours to get to a train over 100 miles away. Not to mention the safety arguments around middle of the night, long distance taxi rides.

It isn’t 100 miles by road from Etches Park to Neville Hill, it’s also a relatively quick journey via the M1, especially early doors. The other issues you mention are perfectly valid, and are of course part of the reason why ASLEF are keen to keep some control over rostering, sharing of work between depots etc., by creating “(far too) much drama”, as you put it, which I must say seems an interesting take from a driver (your username implies you are one?) given the issues this industry has with fatigue management.

Could ASLEF do a better job? Yes they could; we should really be moving away from alternate weeks of lates and earlies, but there appears to be no consensus amongst the membership in favour of advocating for this.

 

[driverd]

You’d likely then end up with an inefficient use of the XC crew, which might easily eclipse £900 per day in terms of value. That amount is chicken feed in the context of a system where delays can rack up hundreds per minute.

Again, no. You'd end up with the same traincrew cost, as the circa 4 hour extension would just come out of XC budget, not (insert MML operator of choice). You're still paying your crew, sat in a taxi or on a train. On a train, you're not paying for the taxi.

Trust me, TOCs are very conscious of their taxi budget.

In any case the arrangement no longer exists.

Absolutely - I'm curious why you're so defensive of how it was?

It isn’t 100 miles by road from Derby to Leeds.

Sorry, 77 miles.

The other issues you mention are of course part of the reason why ASLEF are keen to keep some control over this sort of thing, or create “drama” as you put it…

And, as a paid up aslef member for close to the past decade, would still describe my experience of, even the most trivial re-allocation of work, as such. Some of us do move between management and traincrew and have been on both sides of that table. It may not be the same at your TOC, I don't know.

 

[Tomnick]

Out of interest does the driver having worked from Nottingham then work the 0748 departure to Norwich after say 30 minutes break?

Yes. You normally get a good 1½hr fester and a decent breakfast in practice; it's only occasionally when the empties are retimed and diverted via Stockport to drop the other portion there that it doesn't arrive in Liverpool until after 0700, and then there's only just time for a bare minimum break.

we should really be moving away from alternate weeks of lates and earlies, but there appears to be no consensus amongst the membership in favour of advocating for this.

I'd advocate (for those of us with a 3 week rolling rest day pattern) instead alternating between blocks of earlies and lates on that same 3 week basis. Still works for those with permanent "swaps", which is one of the biggest obstacles to changing the status quo.

 

[43066]

Again, no. You'd end up with the same traincrew cost, as the circa 4 hour extension would just come out of XC budget, not (insert MML operator of choice). You're still paying your crew, sat in a taxi or on a train. On a train, you're not paying for the taxi.

There’s also the opportunity cost of what those traincrew could be (more productively) doing instead, and the potential impact on service resilience. Drivers in particular are an extremely scarce resource. Do you want a driver working a train from Leeds to NH, and passing back, or sitting standby incase another driver is ill/disrupted getting in? If that happens £900 starts to look like very little.

Trust me, TOCs are very conscious of their taxi budget.

I’m aware, but taxi budgets pale into insignificance compared to inefficient utilisation of traincrew.

Absolutely - I'm curious why you're so defensive of how it was?

I know some of the people who were directly involved with that arrangement, and I’m simply not convinced it was anything like as inefficient as you imply.

And, as a paid up aslef member for close to the past decade, would still describe my experience of, even the most trivial re-allocation of work, as such. Some of us do move between management and traincrew and have been on both sides of that table. It may not be the same at your TOC, I don't know.

About the same length of time I have been then. It’s largely the same at both of the TOCs I’ve worked for, and I can’t say I’ve noticed ASLEF as a union causing undue issues regarding reallocation of work etc.

What they will do (and the government now wants to take away) is act as a check and balance to ensure the diagrams we end up with are better from a fatigue perspective than they otherwise might be. Have you asked your colleagues what they think, and voiced your concerns to your reps?

I'd advocate (for those of us with a 3 week rolling rest day pattern) instead alternating between blocks of earlies and lates on that same 3 week basis. Still works for those with permanent "swaps", which is one of the biggest obstacles to changing the status quo.

That’s an excellent idea, although sadly there does seem to be a fair bit of inertia around changing these arrangements. As you say people tend to just like to stick to what they know. Personally I’m not that keen on the long weekend as it results in long runs of days on, and single rest days.

 

[driverd]

There’s also the opportunity cost of what those traincrew could be (more productively) doing instead, and the potential impact on service resilience. Drivers in particular are an extremely scarce resource. Do you want a driver working a train from Leeds to NH, and passing back, or sitting standby incase another driver is ill/disrupted getting in? If that happens £900 starts to look like very little.

I think you're maybe missing what I'm saying here? It doesn't really matter what company the crew come from, it's the geographic advantage of having a crew depot at the end point of a route (the same reason you get random little depots at obscure places). If the train was worked from the Leeds end, rather than Derby, its generally most cost effective (as, in this case, you save your daily taxi cost).

It doesn't matter who crews it - it's a one way trip so a pass ride will be involved either way (be that Leeds crew on a train, or EMR in a taxi). A service train is just cheaper.

There's no cost to doing this because, either way, your driver is sat travelling - it's dead time whatever mode their in (you can't be spare half way up the M1, anymore than you can be sat on a voyager passing Clay Cross).

Are you suggesting that crew to cover those trains would essentially only do that in their job? If it was a permanent arrangement you would just build the work into the diagram structure so it wouldn't waste resource.

Back when I did train planning, my main responsibility was traincrew and I would do a number of significant re-writes for STP alterations - I can wholeheartedly assure you, using crew based at the depot where your train ends is almost always more efficient than moving people across the country by taxi. 

I’m aware, but taxi budgets pale into insignificance compared to inefficient utilisation of traincrew.

Passing crew in a 2 hour taxi is inefficient use of crew - as is passing by train - the difference is you don't pay for the train.

I know some of the people who were directly involved with that arrangement, and I’m simply not convinced it was anything like as inefficient as you imply.

I'm not saying it's the biggest inefficiency at all - the savings wouldn't be buying you a new fleet - it's just an example of one.

About the same length of time I have been then. It’s largely the same at both of the TOCs I’ve worked for, and I can’t say I’ve noticed ASLEF as a union causing undue issues regarding reallocation of work etc.

In fairness, there's been plenty of examples of ASLEF being quite supportive, but the issues I've specifically seen was around re-allocation and introduction of additional work, whereby one depots branch was arguing with our branch about who's work it was (atleast the story according to one of the reps).

What they will do (and the government now wants to take away) is act as a check and balance to ensure the diagrams we end up with are better from a fatigue perspective than they otherwise might be. Have you asked your colleagues what they think, and voiced your concerns to your reps?

Always do and the reps are generally very helpful. I've no particular issues that need raising presently.

 

[whoosh]

Until the end of HST working on East Midlands Railway, two units were stabled overnight at Neville Hill depot for maintenance/servicing purposes. As a result, two EMR drivers and train managers based at Derby had to be taxied to Leeds in the early hours of the morning to work the through services to St Pancras....and another two sets of crew had to be taxied from Leeds back to Derby after working the corresponding down services in the evening. IIRC, there was only one train each way on Sundays though.

It was Sheffield Train Managers (in a separate taxi).

I think it doesn’t help that Hitchin drivers don’t sign 700s which frequently stop through the station.

But I’m old school and think all drivers should sign all traction at their TOC.

Especially considering it's only a two day conversion course from a 717 to 700, or vice-versa.

Most of the route isn’t all of the route, and EMR crews in a taxi made sense for that arrangement - especially as there isn’t a driver depot at Sheffield, so you’d need to taxi the EMR crews up there in any case to relieve early services, or you’d need the LNER crews signing all the way to Derby. LNER also lost HST competence while EMR still had it IIRC.

Taxis like that happen in various places and are often more efficient than maintaining little used route and traction knowledge. Hence the trend is for depot specific route (a la Thameslink). Massive unwieldy route cards are largely a thing of the past on the passenger side.

Some Derby Drivers did have quite a knowledge, especially for night shifts to Neville Hill. Some knew via Erewash, Beighton, Rotherham Central, Barnsley, Wakefield Kirkgate, Hambleton Junction. Basically pretty much every way you could get from Derby to Neville Hill, there were a small number who knew the whole lot.
Most only knew the main Doncaster and Moorthorpe routes though.

If I remember correctly, I'm going back over ten years to EMT days, there used to be:
Three PM jobs,
Derby to London first, then ended up at Neville Hill, back to Derby in a taxi. Two of them shared a taxi, one had a taxi to themselves.

Three night jobs:
One booked on about 20:50, Derby to Neville Hill, Neville Hill to Derby.

Two booked on at 23:59. One worked the 00:25 I think it was to Sheffield, ECS to Neville Hill - the other was 'pass' on it.
Both came back to Derby in the morning after ECS to Leeds or Sheffield.

Two morning jobs, used to book on about 04:00. Taxi to Neville Hill, one worked to Derby, the other worked to Nottingham and then 'pass' to Derby. Both quite short jobs* - in stark contrast to a few years earlier than that (before the maximum duty length was negotiated to 10 hours) when they went through all the way to London and then back to Derby and were between 10 and 11 hours long!

*Bear in mind that short jobs end up being balanced with long jobs, so those two 6 hour jobs had a lot of 9 hour+ jobs to make the average 8h45. The average adding them all up and dividing by how many jobs there were probably came to about 8h45, but I would've said at the time that the Median average (the middle length job) was higher.