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Door position marking on platforms

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miklcct

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In Hong Kong, the door positions of metro trains are marked on the platform (photo below from The Standard):
20230214193937contentPhoto1.jpg


This allows people to queue orderly and leave a space for alighting passengers, which helps minimizing dwell times. The same effect can also be seen on the new section of Jubilee line with platform screen doors as well. Why can't I see such markings on the other part of the London Underground network?
 
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thomalex

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I swear they did this somewhere a few years back as an experiment but seemingly decided not to go ahead with it. I can’t think of any disadvantages really other than it maybe creates crowd pressure on certain points of the platform when it’s crowded and this is a hazard. Or maybe there wasn’t any real improvement to passenger flow to necessitate rolling this out.

Personally I always look for where the yellow line is a bit darker and you usually like up with the doors
 

MasterSpenny

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I wish this was the case at stations where there are no platform screen doors. It just makes the process of passengers getting on much quicker. At stations where there are platform screen doors, its not necessary, as you know where the doors are going to be positioned when against the platform.
 

Bletchleyite

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I swear they did this somewhere a few years back as an experiment but seemingly decided not to go ahead with it. I can’t think of any disadvantages really other than it maybe creates crowd pressure on certain points of the platform when it’s crowded and this is a hazard. Or maybe there wasn’t any real improvement to passenger flow to necessitate rolling this out.

Personally I always look for where the yellow line is a bit darker and you usually like up with the doors

It was done on Thameslink but they botched it up and they didn't line up with where the doors actually stopped.

It seems a good idea to me provided stopping is consistent enough and only one type of rolling stock is in use; multiple markings are a bit confusing.
 

306024

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Was done at Bank station in Network SouthEast days on the Waterloo and City line, using the NSE logo.
 

Mikey C

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It was done on Thameslink but they botched it up and they didn't line up with where the doors actually stopped.

It seems a good idea to me provided stopping is consistent enough and only one type of rolling stock is in use; multiple markings are a bit confusing.
Nearly every London Underground platform is used by one train type only, so painting something on the edge would be pretty straightforward.
 

Bletchleyite

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Nearly every London Underground platform is used by one train type only, so painting something on the edge would be pretty straightforward.

I really don't understand why London Underground don't do it, it would be a really good idea. Did they ever try it? Passenger flow at stations with platform edge doors is so much better because people know where to queue - that's costly, but paint isn't.

What I tend to do myself if it's busy is look for a marker on the platform while the full train before is there and stand in that location, just to one side of where the door will be.
 

eh_oh

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On a somewhat related note, what are the breaks in the yellow line with vertical lines seen on many underground platforms?
1698864924337.png
When I first saw them I thought they might be carriage ends but they are nowhere near said ends
 

Taunton

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Unless auto driving, stopping positions are not consistent enough to mark the platform.

Notwithstanding platform edge doors, Canary Wharf Jubilee Line long ago had queue positions marked, slightly to one side of the doors to allow a channel for alighting passengers. And, surprisingly, queue discipline was very good, especially pre-Covid/pre-Elizabeth, when it handled much larger peak numbers, and it was common not to be able to all get in the first train. Most of course were daily travellers.

Meanwhile, back in history, the old Glasgow Underground (the OLD one, with the wooden-bodied trains) had just such queue positions painted on the short platforms, with "Q" markings and arrows. Someone told me the concept had come forward from major stops on the old city tramways.
 

dosxuk

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I'm sure they did trial this, with multiple different platform markings to see which performed best, but ended up drawing the conclusion that it just caused more bunching and congestion on the platforms, as it meant everyone tried to stand next to a door rather than fairly evenly among the platform.

I think the big difference between the London Underground and networks where this does work successfully is the platform width - most of the busy stations where this sort of marking would help are also the really old ones with narrow (by modern standards) platforms. It doesn't take many people deciding to wait in the same place for the entire platform to be blocked.
 

boiledbeans2

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I think the big difference between the London Underground and networks where this does work successfully is the platform width - most of the busy stations where this sort of marking would help are also the really old ones with narrow (by modern standards) platforms. It doesn't take many people deciding to wait in the same place for the entire platform to be blocked.
I agree with this. Often at busy stations, I find it difficult to walk to the ends of the platform to board the train as the narrow width of the platform would be completely occupied. The only way is to walk on (or beyond) the yellow line.

Didn't SWR want to do this? It was the whole purpose of the Class 701s, where the door positions of 10-car and 2x5-car trains would be identical. It would be easier to implement on the wider NR platforms.
 

Hadders

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Extensive platform markings were trialled at Kings Cross St Pancras back in 2017. It wasn't successful.


This is the southbound Victoria line platform at King's Cross St Pancras.

gnlanez.jpg

The green bits are new.

Instinctively, what do you think the green bits mean?

grnlane.jpg

And if you stop and think a bit harder for a few seconds, what do you think they mean now?

Well...

The green bits are part of a trial which aims to reduce congestion on the platform.
Green lanes trial
A trial to reduce crowding and the time trains spend at platforms is due to go on trial at King's Cross in 2017. Aiming to change customer behaviour on platforms, if successful it will improve passenger flow, reduce congestion and therefore enable us to run more trains per hour, providing greater capacity on the network.
The trial started last week, and is due to continue for "up to three months". But have you worked out what's going on yet?
When customers gather at platform entrances and train doors it can make boarding and alighting difficult, and can lead to bottlenecks. The green lanes trial looks to solve these problems, and ease the high levels of congestion created as a result.
So yes, it's all about directing waiting passengers to stand in some places and not others.

But are you supposed to wait in the green bits, or not wait in the green bits?

This poster spills the beans.

glanepostr.jpg

The green bits are "green lanes", and they're for not stopping in.
Green vinyl areas on the platform floor will encourage people not to stop in certain places.
The idea is that those waiting on the platform keep out of the way of passengers alighting from trains, and provide a clear lane at the rear for exiting the platform. Essentially this is 'Please stand away from the doors and allow passengers to get off', writ large.
The trial will clearly differentiate the walking and waiting areas on platforms by creating green vinyl lanes that run the whole length of the platform, and spur off to the train doors. The non-green areas become the customer waiting areas. The dedicated moving area created by the green lanes will improve the flow of customers getting on and off the train and entering and leaving the platform.
But you can guess what's been happening.

People are standing in the green bits.

grenlnz.jpg

Lots of people are standing in the green bits.

grnlnz.jpg

There are several possible reasons for this.

Firstly there's only one poster explaining what to do, way back at the top of the escalator leading down from the ticket hall. If you don't see the poster, or come in via a different route, or have forgotten which way round the green bits work by the time you reach the platform, you're left to make up the rules as you go along.

Secondly, green is the internationally recognised colour of 'Go'. At street level green means approval to proceed, so a lot of people are assuming that the green bits are where they're meant to be. You can see why it's tempting to stand on green, especially when there's no train in the platform to show you've got things round the wrong way.

But the green lanes are really for passengers alighting from the train, to provide a swift and easy pathway out. It makes perfect sense that they're green when viewed that way. But green doesn't work so well for those hanging around waiting, who are left to deduce they can stand everywhere that isn't.

Thirdly, a lot of people have assumed, correctly, that the green bits show where the doors are going to be. Hurrah, they think, if I stand here I'll be immediately in front of the doors when the train arrives. They recognise this as a convenience, because they're only thinking about themselves, and not the fact that dozens of people will soon be trying to disembark onto the precise spot where they're now standing.

Meanwhile several other people are paying no attention whatsoever to the green bits.

grnlanez.jpg

These people simply walk onto the platform and stand where they like, and the colour of the floor beneath their feet is of no interest. These are the people with one end of their shoe in the green lane and the other end out of it, plus maybe a suitcase sprawled across the two. There is no reasoning with the oblivious.

It all gets particularly complicated at the back of the platform, where it's actually quite tricky to stand completely behind the green lane, and most passengers waiting back here don't generally keep clear.

And then, obviously, there are people doing exactly what they've been told and standing in the not-green bits.

greelan.jpg

Selective use of photos can make it look like everybody's got it totally wrong, whereas in fact several have got it (intentionally or unintentionally) right, as several minutes standing watching confirms.

Most importantly, I should point out that I took these photos in the middle of the day. Between peak hours the platform isn't especially busy, and at these times the green lanes aren't in any way necessary. But TfL's trial is focused very much on reducing congestion in peak hours, particularly the morning crush, and it might work a heck of a lot better then.

I can imagine rush hour commuters standing out of the way, or learning to stand out of the way, and letting their fellow inbound passengers pass. It must be easier to establish a system when there aren't so many one-off tourists around, and when numbers make it easier to observe 'correct behaviour' by example. I could also imagine peak times being an unholy mess as the green lanes are entirely disregarded, but I'm willing to be charitable given I haven't seen the evidence.
Announcements will also be made to remind customers to keep moving.
It appears station staff are making announcements about the green lanes, which'll surely help passengers understand precisely what they mean. I didn't hear a single announcement in the ten minutes I watched, but maybe they restrict them to peak hours when announcements would be relevant and useful, and don't bother wasting passengers' time the rest of the day.

Equalities-wise, a green strip that only makes sense if you can hear an announcement isn't a great idea. And green isn't a good choice for the colour-blind, especially when there's also a yellow strip on the platform which means something completely different.

Perhaps some vinyl arrows on the green bits would help, showing passenger flow away from the train, although they might simply draw attention to where the doors are and make things worse. Previous experiments with arrows on the Jubilee line didn't seem to work either, so maybe that's why they've not been included here.

Anyway, it's only a trial at the moment, so let's not fret.
Using CCTV cameras, we will time how quickly passengers get on and off the train, as well as noting if fewer trains are delayed due to overcrowding. For comparison, we have collected data from before the trial, looking at the morning peak. We will study the results of the Green Lane trial before deciding whether this can be introduced more widely.
But my hunch is we won't be seeing this precise set-up rolling out elsewhere. It reminds me of the 'standing only' escalator trial at Holborn, which solved a problem that only exists for a couple of hours a day, hence trying to enforce the rule at other times proved unmanageable. Rules need to be consistent, and seen to be necessary, else stubborn Londoners will always disregard them.

All we appear to have learned so far is that if you paint something green and don't label it, people aren't going to understand what it means.

belamtweet.jpg


Twitter, what do you think these trial green markings on the Kings Cross Victoria Line platform are telling you to do? pic.twitter.com/Wti1hQeqBg
— Martin Belam (@MartinBelam) July 25, 2017

• OMFG they are so stupidly designed. Don't get me started @chrisapplegate
• I read them instinctively as "stand on the green, then enter train via the green", but that would make it impossible to move along platform @LFDodds
• It's where the doors are and where you should leave space for people exiting? @adebradley
• The internationally recognised colour of forbidden, green. @PaulFedayn
• First impression - queue here for doors. @ThatMattSpencer
• After a bit of thinking I think they're showing the people getting off the train their route out, so I shouldn't stand there? But the shapes are very dazzle ship/cognitive overload imho @adambanksdotcom
• Queue. I am British and assume every line on the ground is somewhere to queue. @stuartgibson
• Natural instinct would tell you that it's ok to stand there. Knowing what That London is like, I bet it means the exact opposite. @WelshGasDoc
• My guess is lead you towards doors? @CJTerry
• Where you shouldn’t stand so you can let people off? Although if that’s the case, it should be red. @chrisbrandrick
• They're identifying where the doors will open for the next train, which will give a helpful advantage to us - the sighted - over the blind @adamdickstead
• Leave paths clear to allow people to get off the train, you damn selfish door blocking pigs? @freudianskippy
• I'd assume that's where the doors were gonna be, but no idea about the long green bit parallel to the track @build_a_fire
• Like where to stand to be by the doors when they open @OliverJ0
• The signs say keep clear, the placement and colour say "queue here" @howlieT
• Green has a strong emotional correspondence with safety. I would be inclined to stand on the green unless I saw people behaving differently.@LeeAnnEspo
• Are they to help partially sighted people find the doors? @liquidindian
• I think it sort of means "please dawdle and play on your phone in this shaded area" @mutablejoe
• Is it 'stand on this unrealistically small portion of the platform only, the rest is lava'? @IanDouglas
• "Go this way for the District Line"? @unloveablesteve
• I think it's a cycle lane. @gredmond76
• Does it mean: You didn't get a garden bridge, so here's our garden platform, but due to driver salary increases, we could only afford paint? @AndrewDoesSEO
• Walk all along the green. As you do so it will light up. Successfully complete the puzzle and win a prize. @JonnieMarbLes
• Miniature golf @mrchimpington
• As a Londoner I dislike this. A LOT. So much so that it made me tut and sigh quietly to myself. @NathanRyan89
 

Bletchleyite

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Interesting. When I first looked at that, it said to me DO stand in the green bits.

Perhaps doesn't discredit the idea but rather than specific implementation!
 

ainsworth74

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Unless auto driving, stopping positions are not consistent enough to mark the platform.
Not sure I buy that. Mainline drivers, who don't have the benefit of automatic operation, appear to be able to nail car stop boards fairly consistently. Certainly consistently enough for platform markings to work. On my local commute on Northern, with no stopping boards at the station, I can stand on the same place on the platform and usually have a door stop right next to me (the only time it doesn't is if that specific driver has chosen a different stopping point to that which is used by most of them).
Interesting. When I first looked at that, it said to me DO stand in the green bits.

Perhaps doesn't discredit the idea but rather than specific implementation!

Yes I was thinking that the issue with that would appear to be the implementation that LU went with rather than idea itself! As with you on first glance I took the big green blocks to be indicating where to stand. I would have thought a simple yellow hatched area with a few signs and arrows (similar to the Hong Kong example in the opening post) would have worked much better.
 

Mikey C

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I'd be happy if they just painted the platform edge where the doors will be when the train stops. Enough to highlight where the doors are, without obliterating the whole platform.
 

Bletchleyite

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I'd be happy if they just painted the platform edge where the doors will be when the train stops. Enough to highlight where the doors are, without obliterating the whole platform.

That's basically what Thameslink did. Problem was just it being in the wrong place.

Farringdon-Thameslink-platform-zone-D-AnonWidower.jpg

Door markers at Farringdon, photo from londonreconnections.com from this long general article on platform markings: https://www.londonreconnections.com/2023/floors-the-next-dimension-in-safety-and-wayfinding/

Not sure I buy that. Mainline drivers, who don't have the benefit of automatic operation, appear to be able to nail car stop boards fairly consistently. Certainly consistently enough for platform markings to work. On my local commute on Northern, with no stopping boards at the station, I can stand on the same place on the platform and usually have a door stop right next to me (the only time it doesn't is if that specific driver has chosen a different stopping point to that which is used by most of them).

Same. I know which bits of damage/staining/muck on the platform at Bletchley will have a door stop by them, and for a given length of train it always does. Regulars do tend to work this out. Also on London Underground, even on non-ATO routes, you can work out where to stand from the (full and standing) train before. Drivers are generally quite good at it because they do it all day, every day!
 

notverydeep

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I was involved in one such fairly extensive trial in the early 2000s and subsequent analysis. On platforms without Platform Edge Doors (PEDs) it caused dwell time to increase. We concluded that this was because the passengers who would be minded to stand in such a way as to force themselves on at the beginning of the dwell time (in order to be in the first few to board and therefore assured of getting on) now knew where to stand to help improve their chances, where previously they didn't and that this must have off set the benefit of other passengers minded to stand aside - which may be better for everyone by improving dwell time, but may not be individually rational as it increased their chance of being left behind (or having a less optimal place on the train). At these locations the markings actually made things (slightly) worse.

At stations with PEDs, the first group already know what they need to force themselves on as early as possible, so dwell times improved very slightly as the second group slightly improved their more altruistic behaviour. In any event, the benefit was not worth the installation and maintenance costs...
 

DanNCL

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Until recently this was a thing at several Tyne & Wear Metro stations. There was a vinyl on the platform at each of the door position points, designed so that when the doors opened passengers getting off would instantly see a vinyl on the platform telling them which way the lift was. It wasn't officially a door position indicator but most of the regular passengers knew that they marked where the doors would be and queued accordingly. They've recently been removed as the 555s don't have the same door positions as the outgoing fleet.

This alamy stock image shows one of the vinyls in question
manors-metro-station-newcastle-upon-tyne-HM4FFE.jpg
 
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In Hong Kong, the door positions of metro trains are marked on the platform (photo below from The Standard):
20230214193937contentPhoto1.jpg


This allows people to queue orderly and leave a space for alighting passengers, which helps minimizing dwell times. The same effect can also be seen on the new section of Jubilee line with platform screen doors as well. Why can't I see such markings on the other part of the London Underground network?

They were trialed on the Jubilee, Northern and a couple of Picc Line locations in the early 2000's - an "initiative" from the then newly minted Reliability Improvement Managers (several lies in one title) that ran into the most problems on the Northern, with the markings being incorrectly placed, or trains simply stopping inconsistently - as little as a foot could make them more of a problem than a help - and therefore being ditched.

Passenger behaviour was least changed at Central London locations - especially regular commuters who knew exactly where they needed to stand anyway, or very crowded times of day where it didn't matter as people were too rammed in to worry about platform markings.

Throughout the 2000s each change in senior Management lead to repeats of exactly the same exercise with fairly consistent findings that they really didn't help much at all unless you had platform-edge doors already.

A generation later I'm sure if LU actually had the money, some bright spark would be proposing the same trials all over again. And then nothing will come of it.
 

cool110

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Merseyrail used to have signs on the tunnel walls, until the 777s buggered it up with different positions.

Liverpool_Central_Platform_1_towards_Ormskirk_2.jpg
 

Flange Squeal

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Didn't SWR want to do this? It was the whole purpose of the Class 701s, where the door positions of 10-car and 2x5-car trains would be identical. It would be easier to implement on the wider NR platforms.
Their predecessor South West Trains certainly gave it a go with 455s, with Clapham Junction platform 10 being one such location where yellow boxes denoted where doors would align.
 

DavyCrocket

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Underground trains do have to stop within a defined area, even within a conventional signalling area, to have the correct side door enable system function.
 

trebor79

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Unless auto driving, stopping positions are not consistent enough to mark the platform.

Not sure I buy that. Mainline drivers, who don't have the benefit of automatic operation, appear to be able to nail car stop boards fairly consistently. Certainly consistently enough for platform markings to work.
Indeed. I believe tube trains are required to stop pretty accurately anyway, to avoid doors being off platform. On the Bakerloo and others you can see target boards for the driver to align the cab with.
Last year I was sat just behind the drivers cab in the Bakerloo. We stopped somewhere, then moved forward slightly before stopping again and the doors opening. At the next station we stopped, and I heard a very loud exclamation of "Oh for F's sake!" from the cab. We moved forward a foot or so, stopped and the doors opened. Did make me chuckle!
 

trebor79

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I know, they have to stop quite accurately, and I'm sure would be good enough for platform markings. Though it seems such trials have been unsuccessful for other reasons.
 
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