Dore curve?

[30mog]

In another thread I mentioned Dore. As I understand it, a second track and platform on the Hope Valley side will be re-instated? I would hope however that they would also adapt the station to allow MML trains in both directions to stop. Can anyone tell me if such provision is included?

 

[talltim]

As far as I know, no. I wish they would, it would make my commute cheaper!

 

[30mog]

When I went through the other day. It occurred to me the curve tunnel could be used. Normally only used by freight trains to turn sharp left from MML to Hope Valley line, or vice versa. I noticed there could realistically be another chord into the tunnel. Trains would leave Sheffield, fork right onto Hope Valley, stop, carry on and go sharp left into the tunnel and rejoin MML, and vice versa. It would allow the Leeds-Nottingham semi-fast to stop. And give Norwich/Nottingham-Liverpool trains the option of missing Sheffield - saving a good 20 minutes on through services from East Midlands to North West.

There is more to come on how Dore will look in the future. It was reported in Sheffield that the HS2 budget includes improvements for links to the proposed station at Meadowhall, including a Supertram extension alongside Network Rail tracks between Sheffield & Dore. This will have been thought about. As will how to tackle the reaction of the affluent NIMBYs who live near Dore station.

 

[tbtc]

No such provision AFAIK - there's not a lot of "slow" passenger services on the Sheffield - Chesterfield line that would use such platforms - and even if such platforms existed then you'd presumably run into problems with the fast train behind (e.g. the Leeds - Nottingham services already stop at Dronfield so adding an extra few minutes by stopping at Dore too will mean there's more chance of it being caught up).

 

[Tomnick]

When I went through the other day. It occurred to me the curve tunnel could be used. Normally only used by freight trains to turn sharp left from MML to Hope Valley line, or vice versa. I noticed there could realistically be another chord into the tunnel. Trains would leave Sheffield, fork right onto Hope Valley, stop, carry on and go sharp left into the tunnel and rejoin MML, and vice versa. It would allow the Leeds-Nottingham semi-fast to stop.

Realistically? Not really. It'd be a killer in terms of capacity - particularly Up trains, having to cross the Down line twice, with the overlap for Dore South's protecting signal extending across the junction (so a Down train can't enter Bradway Tunnel until anything off the South Curve has cleared the junction). Physically, I doubt it'd be possible either; not without significant earthworks, probably including opening out the existing tunnel.

And give Norwich/Nottingham-Liverpool trains the option of missing Sheffield - saving a good 20 minutes on through services from East Midlands to North West.

The ability to do this already exists - the fact that they don't probably tells its own story (i.e. that Sheffield generates too much traffic to justify missing it out). I don't think it's a realistic prospect unless additional services are provided along the Nottingham - Sheffield and Sheffield - Manchester corridors to compensate (or an additional service runs fast avoiding Sheffield).

 

[Eagle]

(or an additional service runs fast avoiding Sheffield).

Nottinghamshire CC have campaigned for a while for a direct Nottingham to Manchester service in addition to the EMT service.

 

[Tomnick]

After reading about the various campaigns for direct services from, or via, Barton-upon-Humber to everywhere else in the world, I try not to take them too seriously .

 

[mwmbwls]

When I went through the other day. It occurred to me the curve tunnel could be used. Normally only used by freight trains to turn sharp left from MML to Hope Valley line, or vice versa. I noticed there could realistically be another chord into the tunnel. Trains would leave Sheffield, fork right onto Hope Valley, stop, carry on and go sharp left into the tunnel and rejoin MML, and vice versa. It would allow the Leeds-Nottingham semi-fast to stop. And give Norwich/Nottingham-Liverpool trains the option of missing Sheffield - saving a good 20 minutes on through services from East Midlands to North West.

That would be an extremely tight curve and regaining the up main at Dore South Junction through the existing single lead feed and crossover would have knock on effects to the MML. With regard to leaving Sheffield out of the Norwich Liverpool service - there is a considerable churn on that route which in effect makes it a series of semi fast regional services. The Nottingham to Sheffield and the Sheffield to Manchester sectors are particularly high loading. There would be strong commercial objections to dropping Sheffield from the route - indeed increasing the service to twice an hour from Nottingham to Liverpool via Sheffield is IIRC an aspiration.

The extension of the Super Tram to Dore has long been an aspiration and the use of the spare alignment into town would be a sound idea bypassing the inner congested stratches of Abbeydale Road. In order to serve the local catchment area better it would be more useful to leave this alignment south of Archer Road and utilise the dual carriageway section of Abbey Dale having run through the park enabling a broad rang of interchange with local bus services - although that would require a degree of joined up thinking which is not commonly found with privatised buses.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Nottinghamshire CC have campaigned for a while for a direct Nottingham to Manchester service in addition to the EMT service.

They're welcome to fund it rather than just campaign if it means so much to them.

 

[Mugby]

It was suggested recently in one of the rail magazines that Derby to Manchester via Matlock - Peak Forest is not exactly out of the question.

 

[tbtc]

That would be an extremely tight curve and regaining the up main at Dore South Junction through the existing single lead feed and crossover would have knock on effects to the MML. With regard to leaving Sheffield out of the Norwich Liverpool service - there is a considerable churn on that route which in effect makes it a series of semi fast regional services. The Nottingham to Sheffield and the Sheffield to Manchester sectors are particularly high loading. There would be strong commercial objections to dropping Sheffield from the route - indeed increasing the service to twice an hour from Nottingham to Liverpool via Sheffield is IIRC an aspiration

I'd be happy if they diverted the Liverpool - Norwich service away from Sheffield as long as Sheffield retained a half hourly service to Nottingham and Manchester (not too fussed about Norwich etc).

For example, extend the Bridlington/ Hull - Sheffield to Manchester and extend the "short" Leeds - Sheffield "semi fast" to Nottingham (i.e. making it half hourly).

The extension of the Super Tram to Dore has long been an aspiration and the use of the spare alignment into town would be a sound idea bypassing the inner congested stratches of Abbeydale Road. In order to serve the local catchment area better it would be more useful to leave this alignment south of Archer Road and utilise the dual carriageway section of Abbey Dale having run through the park enabling a broad rang of interchange with local bus services - although that would require a degree of joined up thinking which is not commonly found with privatised buses.

I dunno - we've got three commercial services in Sheffield designed as "tram feeder" routes.

I think that Supertram to Dore would be a bad thing - much better to extend the "heavy rail" services from Barnsley/ Doncaster etc through to Dore when HS2 arrives to provide a fast link from south west Sheffield to Meadowhall.

That way we get a proper four track railway through Millhouses.

 

[Bedpan]

It was suggested recently in one of the rail magazines that Derby to Manchester via Matlock - Peak Forest is not exactly out of the question.

They've been saying that for many years, more or less since shortly after it closed and Peak Rail was set up to reinstate the route. Much as I'd like to see it reopen, and it must be a significantly more direct route than via Totley, I think its just a pipedream and can't see it happening.

I only ever went on it once, on a journey from London to Manchester just before it closed. I'd never been further north than Lowestoft/Peterborough at the time and I remember thinking that the countryside it passed through was like nothing I had ever seen before.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I dunno - we've got three commercial services in Sheffield designed as "tram feeder" routes.

I think that Supertram to Dore would be a bad thing - much better to extend the "heavy rail" services from Barnsley/ Doncaster etc through to Dore when HS2 arrives to provide a fast link from south west Sheffield to Meadowhall.

That way we get a proper four track railway through Millhouses.

I think Supertram to Dore using the old track-bed would be a mistake. Tram via another route could be positive.

With the doubling of Dore Curve it might not be long till we want a four track section into Sheffield so as to completely separate Chesterfield and Manchester bound services. I can see Dore junction becomming a bottle neck. With some clever trackwork you could reinstate Millhouses station too and with MML electrification this could form part of a Doncaster Dore electric service allowing cross Sheffield connections for HS2.

 

[tom1649]

They've been saying that for many years, more or less since shortly after it closed and Peak Rail was set up to reinstate the route. Much as I'd like to see it reopen, and it must be a significantly more direct route than via Totley, I think its just a pipedream and can't see it happening.

I live in Matlock and wish it would reopen. Travelling all the way to Manchester by bus is no fun at all. However, I can't see it happening either.

 

[30mog]

With the doubling of Dore Curve it might not be long till we want a four track section into Sheffield so as to completely separate Chesterfield and Manchester bound services. I can see Dore junction becomming a bottle neck. With some clever trackwork you could reinstate Millhouses station too and with MML electrification this could form part of a Doncaster Dore electric service allowing cross Sheffield connections for HS2.

And if so. Once again re-open something that should never have closed.

 

[edwin_m]

Northern Hub (including the remodelling of Dore) will allow for at least one more fast per hour over the Hope Valley, which could go round the curve instead of into Sheffield. I agree however that Nottingham-Sheffield would then need a replacement service. With things such as this and whatever services are provided to connect with HS2 I can see Nottingham being under pressure again despite recent and current capacity improvements. Sheffield Midland is also something of a bottleneck though resignalling could probaly help here.

 

[SuperOwl86]

Northern Hub (including the remodelling of Dore) will allow for at least one more fast per hour over the Hope Valley, which could go round the curve instead of into Sheffield. I agree however that Nottingham-Sheffield would then need a replacement service. With things such as this and whatever services are provided to connect with HS2 I can see Nottingham being under pressure again despite recent and current capacity improvements. Sheffield Midland is also something of a bottleneck though resignalling could probaly help here.

I dont think resignalling could ever help Sheffield. Only way Sheffield could ever stop being a bottleneck would be adding extra track in the north throat but this is never likely to happen due to the crazy amount of money it would cost to make the tunnels and such wider.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I dont think resignalling could ever help Sheffield. Only way Sheffield could ever stop being a bottleneck would be adding extra track in the north throat but this is never likely to happen due to the crazy amount of money it would cost to make the tunnels and such wider.

It could, the current signalling arrangements do not allow for efficient movements throughout the station. There is potential with some remodeling to improve this and it is planned in conjunction with electrification and renewals as part of the HLOS. Having trains terminate at Dore will also help as the north facing terminating trains are one of the main problems.

 

[tbtc]

Only way Sheffield could ever stop being a bottleneck would be adding extra track in the north throat but this is never likely to happen due to the crazy amount of money it would cost to make the tunnels and such wider.

If you want to spend "crazy money" then I'd also suggest remodelling the middle platforms so that 3/4 (the current bays for Northern Pacers/ Sprinters) become "through platforms", so that you'd have seven long platforms and no bays (take out a couple of the "middle roads" whilst you are at it).

But, as I said, crazy money...

 

[YorkshireBear]

If you want to spend "crazy money" then I'd also suggest remodelling the middle platforms so that 3/4 (the current bays for Northern Pacers/ Sprinters) become "through platforms", so that you'd have seven long platforms and no bays (take out a couple of the "middle roads" whilst you are at it).

But, as I said, crazy money...

And the little problem of grade listing to overcome

 

[tbtc]

And the little problem of grade listing to overcome

Quick - cancel the bulldozers! :cry:

 

[YorkshireBear]

Quick - cancel the bulldozers! :cry:

Its a shame the station buildings survived in that respect. It would be fantastic to do a Reading on the whole lot. Although the station is lovely from the historical and restoration perspective. I do wish i could bulldoze it and start again. You could have more through platforms, also the bay platforms will soon become inadequate when 4 car EMUs start operating.

 

[bangor-toad]

I genuinely don't know this:

Which bits of Sheffield station are listed?
Is it the entire station or just the main booking hall?

It sounds as if the island platforms are protected in their entirety. Is that why they are still as they are?

I had often thought on my travels to/through Sheffield that the layout was utterly useless for a modern railways with DMUs. I'd have thought that having four through platforms, 2 on the east and 2 on the west with a slew of both north facing and south facing bays in between would be far better. The space for all of those would come from removing all of the through roads that currently exist as throwbacks to the steam / loco age...

Cheers,
Jason

 

[tbtc]

I had often thought on my travels to/through Sheffield that the layout was utterly useless for a modern railways with DMUs

Agreed.

The layout may be handy if we go back to the days of steam and need lots of "running round" / middle roads and the line, but it's really unsuitable for 2013.

Look at how much more efficient stations like Leeds are in comparison, its embarassing.

 

[northwichcat]

Northern Hub (including the remodelling of Dore) will allow for at least one more fast per hour over the Hope Valley, which could go round the curve instead of into Sheffield.

Northern Hub also includes an option for more direct connections from Sheffield to the west via portion workings which would split at Chinley with one going to Hazel Grove, Piccadilly and beyond and the other to New Mills, Victoria and beyond.

 

[talltim]

The platform 2-5 buildings are the original station buildings, the main entrance buildings on platform 1 are a later addition

 

[MCW]

the thought of this topic are driving me round the bend


I'll get my coat....

Seriously, it would be a handy link to have and if like suggested that a remodelling of Sheffield's signals take place, then even better IMO, it could mean shorter journey times and less waiting time to get a platform at Sheffield.

Also logistically, if Dore could take more trains that would be handy if for some reason there might be a reduced capacity at sheffield.

 

[edwin_m]

The buildings at Sheffield may be original but some of the canopies are later additions (there was a train shed originally). I wonder if some of them could be cut back to narrow the through platforms, slew the tracks over and use the space to create another single-sided through platform on the space thus freed up plus that of two centre roads.

Alternatively they could "do a Nottingham" and build out parts of some of one or more through platforms to create extra bays. According to the Quail map the four through platforms can each take 16 coaches.

 

[mwmbwls]

For those too young or too old to remember the southern approach into Sheffield can I commend this DVD based on a 1971 training film featuring a cab ride in a Peak from St. Pancras to Sheffield via Derby.

http://www.videoscene.co.uk/vintage-cab-ride-part-2-market-harborough-sheffield.html

In 2005, the 125 Group (www.125group.org.uk) to celebrate the short lived MML Project Rio service from St Pancras to Manchester Piccadilly via Toton, the Dore south chord and Romiley also released a DVD.

http://www.125group.org.uk/index.php?module=htmlpages&func=display&pid=15

 

[30mog]

I dont think resignalling could ever help Sheffield. Only way Sheffield could ever stop being a bottleneck would be adding extra track in the north throat but this is never likely to happen due to the crazy amount of money it would cost to make the tunnels and such wider.

Quite right. I think a way round this might be to divert the stopping services of the like arrive/depart platforms 3 & 4 away from Sheffield station altogether. This could be done in one of two ways. Tram-train them onto the existing Supertram system. Or, possibly less costly, re-open Sheffield Victoria and divert them there.

In the case of the former. Who knows, it could be the real thinking why Sheffield-Rotherham has got the TT experiment? In the case of the latter, potentially cheaper and more popular. But might be detrimental to rail services to/from Meadowhall - even with a south station/stop.