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Double Decker Trains (again)

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MidnightFlyer

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I thought we coundn't have double decker trains over here because there's little clearence through tunnels/bridges?
 

steve099

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Do any lines exist where double-deck height trains would be permissible? ie. routes without (low) bridges or tunnels?
 

WestCoast

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I thought we coundn't have double decker trains over here because there's little clearence through tunnels/bridges?

I am thinking certain routes could be cleared for them - by relocating bridges or increasing the height of them, increasing clearances e.t.c. Although knowing Network Rail it would cost a absolute fortune in money and disruption to do so.

I am a believe that double deck trains can really work, I've seen them hoover up masses on the continent so I'd support them attempting to inroduce them here - whether it happens of course is a different matter entirely. :roll:


"She added: ‘Comfort and availability of seats are vital to that’ "

Love that bit. And that must be why SWT use the 450's on the route

I remember the thread well, which like many things on here, descended into an argument about pacers (I personally thought it was right to mention them operating on equivalently long routes, where people do travel end-to-end, on some Northern Rail routes, but we won't go down that road). :lol:
 

steve099

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St Pancras - Ashford International
I assume as it was designed into the original specification?

Surely many suburban (south?) London railways would allow conversion to double-deck operation purely because many of the lines are on viaducts?
 

starrymarkb

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Our platforms are the problem, they intrude into the space under the floor so the lower deck would have to be very narrow
 

Nym

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I assume as it was designed into the original specification?

Surely many suburban (south?) London railways would allow conversion to double-deck operation purely because many of the lines are on viaducts?

It's GB+/EU Guage, chances are there are lines that can be upgraded guagewise, but it's also width aswell as height that comes into it, easyer to just use the brand new lines built to it.
 

Skimble19

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Some of the comments on that article are hilarious, especially the one from the person who suggests bringing back BR will magically make people give up seats for him/her and stop the trains being full of young mums and teenagers.. seriously, where do these people come from?!
 
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I am thinking certain routes could be cleared for them - by relocating bridges or increasing the height of them, increasing clearances e.t.c. Although knowing Network Rail it would cost a absolute fortune in money and disruption to do so.

Just thinking about the tunnel at Southampton is enough to make me fear it !!!

They dropped the track bed there by a few inches so that the new larger freight containers could fit through and how many weeks did that take ????

And thats just one tunnel :(
 

swt_passenger

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Some of these Portsmouth News articles recently have been taking a completely opposite view to what is actually written in the RUS, for instance they also ran a fairly positive piece about the Netley Line being changed to light rail.

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/tr...to_link_portsmouth_with_southampton_1_2624646

AFAICT though, Network Rail use the South Hants section of the draft RUS to explain exactly why it can't or won't happen, not why it could happen...

I suspect DD trains remain an impossibility as well - the DfT's report on the costings a few years ago made that pretty clear...
 

Mvann

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Some of these Portsmouth News articles recently have been taking a completely opposite view to what is actually written in the RUS, for instance they also ran a fairly positive piece about the Netley Line being changed to light rail.

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/tr...to_link_portsmouth_with_southampton_1_2624646

AFAICT though, Network Rail use the South Hants section of the draft RUS to explain exactly why it can't or won't happen, not why it could happen...

I suspect DD trains remain an impossibility as well - the DfT's report on the costings a few years ago made that pretty clear...[/QUOTE
We have had double deck coaches before in this country before. I think they worked in Kent. Two coaches still exist as far as I know.
 

pablo

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It says it in the article..."the last in England was on the Dartford-Cannon Street line in 1971". As I recall, they were rather cramped and had longer dwell times so didn't last.
 

90019

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It says it in the article..."the last in England was on the Dartford-Cannon Street line in 1971". As I recall, they were rather cramped and had longer dwell times so didn't last.

There were only two 4 car units, IIRC they lasted quite a long time in service (more than 20 years, I think), but there were never any others built.
 

swt_passenger

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We have had double deck coaches before in this country before. I think they worked in Kent. Two coaches still exist as far as I know.


They were 'trialled' in Kent, but didn't work in practice, so the build was cancelled.

As I pointed out, the DfT commisioned a report into double deckers (and longer trains for comparison) from NR - it was done in support of the 2007 White Paper, and it doesn't recommend changing any existing routes - it is just too expensive, and it also explains why the benefit is relatively small unless a larger gauge train is used.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....whitepapersupportingdocs/provevalddtrains.pdf

In conclusion the benefits from the double deck solution on the existing network do not offset the relatively low volume of additional capacity generated, the significant disruption required to adapt the routes and the resulting long term inflexibility of operation. Double deck would be a viable solution for a new-build route where a more efficient vehicle size could be specified.

Please read the report if you haven't seen it before - and then realise the Portsmouth area will never see double deckers in the near or distant future.
 

SouthEastern-465

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There were only two 4 car units, IIRC they lasted quite a long time in service (more than 20 years, I think), but there were never any others built.

Southern Region 4DD units, built in 1949. I think they were used on Cannon Street/Charing Cross -to- Dartford & Gravesend line. :)
 

Via Bank

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My favourite comment:

It would be a lot cheaper to just put on more coaches, if it is too long for the platforms disable the automatic doors, and passenger could walk to the other coaches as they do now looking for a seat. If the train is too heavy for the locomotive to pull, put on a double header. There would be no wait they could start it next week

Yes, because all Andy Pitt needs to do is get out his chequebook and call Siemens, write out a big, fat, juicy sum, and fifty extra 444s will be built, liveried, fitted, tested, delivered (along with their mysterious "locomotives") and ready to roll out of Waterloo by next Monday. :roll:

Of course, it's a bit more complicated than that. (This also applies to the idea of double-decker units, which will only work if routes are either built to the continental gauge, or converted to it as part of a major modernisation.)
 

cuccir

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What happened in other countries then? Did they just happen to build their bridges higher and tracks wider? Is it because our railways are older? or the density of population, and so high land costs, in the UK?
 

jopsuk

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they built the bridges higher, they left more clearance around the tracks and made the platforms lower.

Age is one of the factors- we had a massive growth in railways, with a surprising level of standardisation, before very many other countries caught on.
 

Ze Random One

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In terms of infrastructure gauging and the like, I suspect that our railways are most akin to those of Japan, where the only real increases in structure gauge is through the construction of new main lines (shinkansen). A few japanese traditional routes do use double-decker cars, but only for first class, where seating capacity is important, and there is no requirement to make arrangements for standing passengers. Where standing capacity is important (i.e., the rest of the train), the japanese still use single-level cars with better headroom, that can support hanging straps and grab rails.

Again, similar to the situation in Japan, most of the routes that could benefit from the capacity of larger stock have one other issue that severely limits throughput (and hence overall line capacity), and that is dwell time. We already have an issue in that our stock has to balance out the following:
- Standing capacity
- Seated capacity
- Maximising door openings (to minimise dwell time)
- Providing an easy route between the seated area and the vestibules
- Locating the doors away from the largest gaps on curved platforms (of which we have far more than most)
- Bogie density (and hence weight of the train and track forces)
- Increased complexity due to a higher door density (more maintenance and failures due to door problems)
Given all these factors, it is clear that we would not get double deck stock that can provide a sufficiently fast access/egress time, and then we'd still have to take into account infrastructure works.
To give an example of how dwell time is important, a 14 second extension of dwell time on a network like Crossrail or Thameslink would reduce the capacity of the tunnel by 2 trains per hour, or 1800 seats per hour and direction.
 
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