Doubling back at Finsbury Park - valid?

[jon0844]

I saw someone getting a PF for having taken a fast train from Hatfield to Finsbury Park, with the intention of taking a slow train back to New Southgate.

Is that a valid route? FCC RPIs didn't check, they just said it wasn't and gave him the PF. He paid it without complaint.

Also, I've always wondered if it's valid to go either way to get from Hertford North to Hatfield. Depending on how many trains go north from Hertford North to Stevenage, and then when the next semi-fast goes south, I think it is sometimes quicker to go via Alexandra Palace or Finsbury Park and go back north.

 

[LexyBoy]

NRE says it's not. I also can't see any relevant easements.

It does appear as a suggested route on NRE though, so it would be an easy (if expensive) mistake to make.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
For Hertford North - Hatfield, the only valid route is via Stevenage (both stations have Stevenage & Finsbury Park as routeing points, but FPK fails the fares check).

 

[BW]

NRE says it's not. I also can't see any relevant easements.

It does appear as a suggested route on NRE though, so it would be an easy (if expensive) mistake to make.

If you click on the details for the individual journey, it does note that you need to buy more than one ticket for the route. This should perhaps be clearer, though.

NRE does the same thing for Kings Cross to Welwyn North. Some of its suggestions are the more expensive route via Stevenage.

 

[tempests1]

If you click on the details for the individual journey, it does note that you need to buy more than one ticket for the route. This should perhaps be clearer, though.

NRE does the same thing for Kings Cross to Welwyn North. Some of its suggestions are the more expensive route via Stevenage.

Thats an Interesting case, based on that I have travelled from Haslemere to Vauxhall via London Waterloo pre barriers as suggested on NRE's website otherwise you would be stuck on a stopper all the way from Guildford or Woking so in theory I could have received a PF

 

[John @ home]

I saw someone getting a PF for having taken a fast train from Hatfield to Finsbury Park, with the intention of taking a slow train back to New Southgate.

Is that a valid route?

If the Hatfield - Finsbury Park and Finsbury Park - New Southgate legs are undertaken on through trains, the Routeing Guide contradicts itself.

The Routeing Points (RPs) for Hatfield are Finsbury Park and Stevenage. The RPs for New Southgate are Finsbury Park and Stevenage. Therefore Hatfield and New Southgate have more than one RP in common.

When origin and destination have more than one RP in common, the appropriate RP is determined according to example (c) on page 3 of the NRG Instructions.

National Routeing Guide - Instructions

Some origins and destinations have more than one common routeing point. The permitted route is the shortest of the alternatives. Once again reference should be made to any scheduled regular services and whether easements apply in Section E that would allow doubling back.

Example (c) - Bamber Bridge to Lostock. Each station has three common routeing points, Preston (21 miles) and both Blackburn and Bolton (24.5 miles). In this instance travel via Preston is the permitted route.

Hatfield - Finsbury Park - New Southgate is shorter than Hatfield - Stevenage - New Southgate, therefore Finsbury Park is the appropriate RP for this journey.

The words in red may be read to imply that travel via the appropriate RP is allowed if and only if there is an appropriate easement allowing doubling back. In this instance, there is not. But the NRG in Detail tells a different story.

National Routeing Guide in Detail

Finding a permitted route when the origin and destination stations have a routeing point in common.

If there is a common routeing point, the permitted route is the shortest route or a route which is longer by no more than 3 miles. Also permitted is the route followed by direct trains to and from the common routeing point if the journey is made on those trains.

The words in green are clear that Hatfield - Finsbury Park - New Southgate is a permitted route if the Hatfield - Finsbury Park and Finsbury Park - New Southgate legs are undertaken on through trains.

Take your pick!

I would also add the condition that doubling back between Hatfield and Finsbury Park is allowed only if the train between Finsbury Park and Hatfield does not call at New Southgate. The routeing guide does not contain this restriction, but I base my opinion on the contract for carriage being completed on the first arrival at the destination.

Also, I've always wondered if it's valid to go either way to get from Hertford North to Hatfield.

Not normally. The appropriate RP for this journey is Stevenage. The journey via Alexandra Palace is some 8 miles longer. Travel via Alexandra Palace is not permitted unless it is deemed that at the time of travel the route via Stevenage is not a route over which a regular scheduled passenger train service operates (Instructions page A2).

I think it is sometimes quicker to go via Alexandra Palace or Finsbury Park

Journey time is not normally a factor in calculating permitted routes.

 

[bakerstreet]

I saw someone getting a PF for having taken a fast train from Hatfield to Finsbury Park, with the intention of taking a slow train back to New Southgate.

Is that a valid route? FCC RPIs didn't check, they just said it wasn't and gave him the PF. He paid it without complaint.

I thought I may have read on here before that PFs were not the intended 'fare' if you were off route? Is that wrong?

 

[island]

Doubling back is a different kettle of fish I think.

 

[clagmonster]

The Conditions of Carriage have this to say:
"(e) If you make your journey by a route other than those referred to in (a) and (b)
above, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the
difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the
lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that would have entitled you
to travel by that route."
From Condition 13.

"Penalty Fares are charged by Train Companies at some stations and in some trains. You
may be liable to pay a Penalty Fare if:
(a) you travel in a train without a ticket or Permit to Travel; or
(b) you travel in a class of accommodation for which the ticket is not valid; or
(c) you travel in a train and the circumstances set out in any of Conditions 10,
11, 12, 18, 19, 22, 30, 35 and 39 apply; or
(d) you are present in a Compulsory Ticket Area without a ticket or Permit to
Travel"
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

I can't see how a penalty fare can be charged for being off route. I suspect it was treated as travelling over distance (Condition 18) but I think the correct excess would be thie difference between the totasl of a Hatfield-Finsbury Park and Finshury Park-New Southgate ticket less the fare already paid for the Hatfield-New Southgate ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I would also add the condition that doubling back between Hatfield and Finsbury Park is allowed only if the train between Finsbury Park and New Southgate does not call at Hatfield. The routeing guide does not contain this restriction, but I base my opinion on the contract for carriage being completed on the first arrival at the destination.

I think you mean the Hatfield-Finsbury Park train not calling at New Southgate, as Hatfield is further out than New Southgate. Also, I believe you are treated as ending your journey when you leave station premises, so I'm not sure whether that applies.

What I would say is that the National Routeing Guide in Detail section seams to allow lots of bizare things (and dissallows sensible things) as it does not seem to be writted with much thought for the rest of the guide. I tend to stick to the main guide (the bits John has highlighted in red).

 

[John @ home]

I think you mean the Hatfield-Finsbury Park train not calling at New Southgate

Agreed. I have edited post #5.

I believe you are treated as ending your journey when you leave station premises

That's an interesting point, but I don't think I would like to rely upon it to justify not alighting at the destination printed on the ticket when the train has called there (at least for the purposes of setting down passengers).

What I would say is that the National Routeing Guide in Detail section seams to allow lots of bizare things (and dissallows sensible things) as it does not seem to be writted with much thought for the rest of the guide. I tend to stick to the main guide (the bits John has highlighted in red).

I can see no evidence that any part of the National Routeing Guide takes priority over any other part. There is of course legislation to resolve doubt about the meaning of a written term in a consumer contract.

 

[clagmonster]

I suspect legally you are right, I just feel it is a case of having one's cake and eating it by taking the most favourable interpretation. I know ATOC are reading this board, so I will say, rewriting or even removing the National Routeing Guide in Detail (Section F) would I believe remove some contradictions and I don't think would leave the guide incomplete in any way. This is my opinion only.

 

[John @ home]

rewriting or even removing the National Routeing Guide in Detail (Section F) would I believe remove some contradictions

ATOC are required to obtain DfT permission, and Passenger Focus entitled to be consulted, before changes are made to the National Routeing Guide.

14 January 2010

The ATOC document, the Ticketing & Settlement Agreement (TSA) allows changes to permitted routes to be made. The TSA requires ATOC to obtain approval from the Secretary of State for any changes, and that the SoS consults with Passenger Focus to ensure that passengers' routing flexibility is preserved.

Approximately 20,000 flows were amended in and around 2001/2 through this full change process. Since the Department for Transport have been responsible for the change approval process to the NRG no such requests have been received at all from ATOC in the intervening period.

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/changes_to_naitonal_rail_routein

 

[LexyBoy]

I would also add the condition that doubling back between Hatfield and Finsbury Park is allowed only if the train between Finsbury Park and Hatfield does not call at New Southgate. The routeing guide does not contain this restriction, but I base my opinion on the contract for carriage being completed on the first arrival at the destination.

Thank you muchly for your detailed post I've been pondering over that part of the RG since the Pyle-Llansamlet discussion and trying to work out why it's OK to double back through Tyseley but not Leamington in their example - what you say makes sense to me (though still requires 'overriding' of the doubling back rule).

I can't see how a penalty fare can be charged for being off route. I suspect it was treated as travelling over distance (Condition 18) but I think the correct excess would be thie difference between the totasl of a Hatfield-Finsbury Park and Finshury Park-New Southgate ticket less the fare already paid for the Hatfield-New Southgate ticket.

My interpretation would be that "off route" applies when travelling on a permitted route, but which is not valid on the ticket held*. I'd like to see discretion where passengers are travelling on reasonable, but not permitted routes (especially those suggested by NRE), but if all cases were treated as off-route, someone could argue that the thought it was OK to use an Acton Main Line > Paddington ticket via Reading...

* Which obviously should include TOC-specific fares, for which a PF can be issued

 

[island]

I'd like to see discretion where passengers are travelling on reasonable, but not permitted routes (especially those suggested by NRE)

A route suggested by NRE should be accepted. If it's blatantly bad the guard should write up a TIR but the passenger should not be charged.

 

[LexyBoy]

A route suggested by NRE should be accepted. If it's blatantly bad the guard should write up a TIR but the passenger should not be charged.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't very clear - I meant where NRE suggests a route (since it's quicker than the alternatives) but marks it as requiring multiple tickets (as in Jon's Hertford>Hatfield example, where NRE shows journeys via FPK but correctly shows multiple tickets required)

In my view, if NRE shows a journey as valid on a given ticket, then it is valid, no argument.

 

[swt_passenger]

Thats an Interesting case, based on that I have travelled from Haslemere to Vauxhall via London Waterloo pre barriers as suggested on NRE's website otherwise you would be stuck on a stopper all the way from Guildford or Woking so in theory I could have received a PF

There's a negative easement:

30230 Customers travelling from Vauxhall to Clapham Junction and beyond may not travel via London Waterloo. This easement applies in both directions.

NRES plans journeys via Waterloo but gives no fares. Normally, wouldn't you expect it to show a combination of two fares under these circumstances?

 

[LexyBoy]

There's a negative easement:

30230 Customers travelling from Vauxhall to Clapham Junction and beyond may not travel via London Waterloo. This easement applies in both directions.

I wouldn't expect it to be valid anyway - the "direct trains to and from the routeing point" rule applies only for journeys where origin and destination share a routeing point.

You'd have no need to change at Waterloo anyway, all trains from Haslemere stop at CJ so you can change there. Maybe when tempests1 was travelling trains skipped CJ; I'm not familiar with the history of the route.

 

[jon0844]

The person getting the PF didn't complain - but I think time was more important, and maybe he missed the fast train. I simply wanted to know if it was allowed, or a PF was appropriate. I doubt he's going to do it again, or was making it up*.

He didn't leave Finsbury Park but had to exit via the gates - and his ticket obviously didn't work. He would then need to cross to platform 5/6 and go back through the gates there. I suspect a rejected ticket tells some RPIs to give a PF and not ask questions or make checks! One day I'll get a PF as my season doesn't allow a break of journey (according to the gateline software).

* It's always possible he WAS trying it on I guess.. simply over travelling and if they let him through the gates, might have left the station or jumped on the tube.

 

[philjo]

Evening peak journeys for Potters bar to Stevenage or beyond on the NRE or FCC online journey planners often tell you to catch a train to Finsbury park then get a fast train to Stevenage. As the system does not recognise a 3 minute wait at WGC as a valid connection so thinks going via Finsbury is the quickest way. Last time I checked it let you book a CDR when this would not be valid from fins bury park due to the evening restrictions.

 

[londonbridge]

A few years back I was on the trainline checking times of trains from Croydon to South Bermondsey as I was going to Millwall for a match and it was telling me to get a fast FCC from East Croydon to London Bridge and then the stopper back to SBM.

 

[yorkie]

A few years back I was on the trainline checking times of trains from Croydon to South Bermondsey as I was going to Millwall for a match and it was telling me to get a fast FCC from East Croydon to London Bridge and then the stopper back to SBM.

Did you buy the ticket; what was the routeing?

If it was a few years ago, the routeing engine may have changed drastically since then.

Interestingly, the route via London Bridge is less than 3 miles longer than the shortest route, via Peckham Rye. So via London Bridge is a "permitted route", but the only tickets I can see in Avantix are routed "Not London". It is possible thetrainline simply looked at the mileages and didn't consider the routeing, or it was programmed that the mileage takes priority.

 

[MikeWh]

A few years back I was on the trainline checking times of trains from Croydon to South Bermondsey as I was going to Millwall for a match and it was telling me to get a fast FCC from East Croydon to London Bridge and then the stopper back to SBM.

Right now NRES says the same when looking up train times. It won't produce fares for any of those journeys, only one via Clapham Junction and Battersea Park! Of course the other advantage now is that via London Bridge is fine if you have an Oyster, as long as you don't try and leave the station.

 

[causton]

Semi-related to this... I was messing around calculating season tickets using the Southern season ticket booking system and was wondering what it would calculate for going from Hatfield to Potters Bar. £16 weekly - fair enough. What about if I go via Hertford North, having to go round in an almost circle (me thinking it would route via Stevenage, then HFN, then AAP to go back to PBR). But no, and it suggested for the same £16 season ticket...

http://vvcap.net/db/Fb0rLlReQw39JzZ9xUd9.htp

Now, not being someone who is an expert at routing, surely this is not valid? It goes from Hatfield THROUGH the destination, then down to AAP, back up through HFN, then to Stevenage, to get a train back through the origin and then finally to the destination.

...

Edit (but before I actually clicked Reply!): Remembering that I needed to click the fare first it suggests that the fare is not valid for HAT-PBR-AAP-HFN-SVG-HAT-PBR, but it *is* valid for HAT-PBR-AAP-HFN-AAP-PBR...

I'm confused. I'm sure this isn't actually valid?

Map of what it suggested for me: http://vvcap.net/db/9FIiB-tII2SWbiKLhTOO.htp

Anyone unfamiliar, here are the TLAs/CRS code definitions (sorry):
HATfield
Potters BaR
AlexandrA Palace
HertFord North
SteVenaGe

 

[bb21]

NLC definitions (sorry):

These are not NLCs. They are TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms).

NLCs are the four-digit codes for each station:
Hatfield - 6070
Potters Bar - 6022
...

 

[causton]

These are not NLCs. They are TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms).

NLCs are the four-digit codes for each station:
Hatfield - 6070
Potters Bar - 6022
...

They are actually CRS codes

(fixed now)

 

[button_boxer]

If it's a season ticket and valid via Hertford then surely it is OK, think of it as three journeys one after the other (Hatfield to Potters Bar direct, then Potters Bar to Hatfield via Hertford, then Hatfield to Potters Bar direct again).

 

[causton]

I know that, I can understand that bit... it's just that it's a bit surprising the ticket is valid via Hertford, which is on a different line than Potters Bar and Hatfield!

 

[talltim]

In theory that ends up as the equivalent of a Hatfield-Hertford (via Ally Pally) season but presumably at a reduced price?

 

[philjo]

The only fares in NFM09 for Hatfield to Hertford stations are route "stevenage".
Hatfield to Cuffley is route "Alexandra Palace"
Hatfield to Bayford is route "Any Permitted"

 

[Failed Unit]

Interesting, on IC journeys north of Peterborough doubling back is allowed at kings cross, which is a good thing if your train doesnt stop at Stevenage!

 

[philjo]

Yes, I think that applies for stations as far as Welham Green when travelling beyond Peterborough.