Doubling back within same Routeing Group

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maniacmartin

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Hi all,

I have a quick routeing question. Is doubling back allowed if staying within the same routeing group?

The journey in question is Bletchley to Euston, and I wish to travel to Milton Keynes, changing to a fast train there. Bletchley and Milton Keynes are both members of the Bletchley routeing group.

NRE shows this as a valid journey, and trainscanbecheaper says permitted by map EN. Is this the reason why its permitted, or is there another rule at work here?
 
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Paul Kelly

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I have a quick routeing question. Is doubling back allowed if staying within the same routeing group?
Both the origin and destination need to be outside the routeing group for doubling back to be allowed under the group stations rule.

The journey in question is Bletchley to Euston, and I wish to travel to Milton Keynes, changing to a fast train there. Bletchley and Milton Keynes are both members of the Bletchley routeing group.

NRE shows this as a valid journey, and trainscanbecheaper says permitted by map EN. Is this the reason why its permitted, or is there another rule at work here?
NRE shows it as needing two tickets: "You need to buy multiple tickets for this journey". Looks like perhaps a little bug in trainscanbecheaper; I'm not sure why it's saying it's valid.
 

maniacmartin

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I wasn't aware that NRE showed routes that need multiple tickets. I'll have to check more carefully in future.
 

John @ home

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Is doubling back allowed if staying within the same routeing group?
Doubling back is allowed within intermediate routeing point groups, that is groups whose stations are neither the origin nor destination of the relevant journey.
National Routeing Guide - Instructions said:
GROUP STATIONS

Some stations are grouped together to improve interchange between trains by offering customers access to a wider choice of train services and station facilities. A customer may travel via any station in such a group, including doubling back, provided that the group is on one of the permitted routes between their origin and destination stations. This extended availability is for interchange purposes only and does not apply where the origin or destination stations are part of a group.

http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf
The journey in question is Bletchley to Euston, and I wish to travel to Milton Keynes, changing to a fast train there. Bletchley and Milton Keynes are both members of the Bletchley routeing group.
Bletchley Group comprises Bletchley and Milton Keynes only. Therefore a Bletchley - London Terminals is not valid via Milton Keynes, but both versions of the Fenny Stratford - London Terminals ticket (route Any Permitted and route Via Bletchley) are valid via Milton Keynes. It is, however, often cheaper to buy more than one ticket.
 

CheapAndNerdy

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I wasn't aware that NRE showed routes that need multiple tickets. I'll have to check more carefully in future.
You need to select the fare for an individual journey and then look down to the Ticket section to see that multiple tickets are required. I think the NRE website could make this clearer by indicating the need for multiple tickets alongside the fare, without requiring that the fare first be selected.
 

Brucey

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Doubling back is allowed within intermediate routeing point groups, that is groups whose stations are neither the origin nor destination of the relevant journey. Bletchley Group comprises Bletchley and Milton Keynes only. Therefore a Bletchley - London Terminals is not valid via Milton Keynes, but both versions of the Fenny Stratford - London Terminals ticket (route Any Permitted and route Via Bletchley) are valid via Milton Keynes. It is, however, often cheaper to buy more than one ticket.
So a Bedford to London Zones 1-6 (Travelcard) is valid via MKC? This is never something I've even considered before and ended up always travelling from Bletchley.

I'm thinking here about travelling at weekends, where an Any Permitted from MKC is £26.40 whilst it is £20.00 from Bedford.

(Before someone says something, I know a £20 LM only or VWC only is available, but sometimes flexibility is nice)
 

IanD

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I'm thinking here about travelling at weekends, where an Any Permitted from MKC is £26.40 whilst it is £20.00 from Bedford.

(Before someone says something, I know a £20 LM only or VWC only is available, but sometimes flexibility is nice)
Flexibility is always nice especially if it doesn't cost extra! This would be great for weekend days out.

Unfortunately, I can't get any of the booking engines or NRE to give a 'single' return ticket from Bedford to London via Milton Keynes so would probably need to take loads of documentation to prove the validity.
 

Brucey

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Unfortunately, I can't get any of the booking engines or NRE to give a 'single' return ticket from Bedford to London via Milton Keynes so would probably need to take loads of documentation to prove the validity.
Bedford to London tickets are issued to London Thameslink. So I was thinking along the lines of an outboundary Travelcard.
 

bb21

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Map LM clearly permits Bedford Group - Bletchley Group - London Euston for travel between Bedford Group and London Group. This allows the holder of a

Bedford Stations - London Zones 1-6
Route Any Permitted
Super Off-Peak Day Travelcard
£20.00

ticket to take the route via Milton Keynes.
 

tony_mac

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There has been some discussion questioning if the line 'This extended availability is for interchange purposes only' implies that you cannot start or end your journey in these circumstances.

If it doesn't operate the barriers, then it may cause some problems with the staff.
 

Brucey

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There has been some discussion questioning if the line 'This extended availability is for interchange purposes only' implies that you cannot start or end your journey in these circumstances.
I would agree with this. Seems fairly clear. My situation above would be used from Woburn Sands anyway (between Bedford and Bletchley).
 

SickyNicky

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NRE shows it as needing two tickets: "You need to buy multiple tickets for this journey". Looks like perhaps a little bug in trainscanbecheaper; I'm not sure why it's saying it's valid.
It was allowing double backs in groups even at the start of journeys. I have fixed the bug and it correctly shows it as not valid now.
 
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