Driverless Technology

[Goingloco]

Apologies if this subject has been raised recently, I imagine it could have cropped up at some point.

In the weekend paper there was was an article suggesting driverless trains may not be too far off. With technological advances I can believe that it could happen and have others considered this when taking driver roles?

The article was in the business section of the Times but it did also state that it would take decades to reengineer the network to adapt to driverless.

All thoughts welcome.

Thanks

 

[Boiliee]

Apologies if this subject has been raised recently, I imagine it could have cropped up at some point.

In the weekend paper there was was an article suggesting driverless trains may not be too far off. With technological advances I can believe that it could happen and have others considered this when taking driver roles?

The article was in the business section of them Times but it did also state that it would take decades to reengineer the network to adapt to driverless.

All thoughts welcome.

Thanks

There are already driverless trains such as DLR and some of the underground lines have people sat in the front for passenger peace of mind

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Pretty easy to but a bunch of cameras, microphones, sensors... They can easily pickup the surrounding environment, especially to the state AI is getting into (you don't need to adapt the infrastructure, apart from communications)

anyway... take a look at this:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...l/news-story/5a31c83c894bf808c330720351684bfe

but this one takes the prize:

https://www.globalrailhub.com/blogs...not-running-to-schedule#.V8Is_GE1sqA.facebook



Outside transit systems, drivers are here to stay for a long time, even if a complementary role to an automated system.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are already driverless trains such as DLR and some of the underground lines have people sat in the front for passenger peace of mind

But that is restricted to transit systems with similar trains and very controlled environments

 

[scotraildriver]

Apologies if this subject has been raised recently, I imagine it could have cropped up at some point.

In the weekend paper there was was an article suggesting driverless trains may not be too far off. With technological advances I can believe that it could happen and have others considered this when taking driver roles?

The article was in the business section of them Times but it did also state that it would take decades to reengineer the network to adapt to driverless.

All thoughts welcome.

Thanks

Certainly not on the national network in this lifetime. The costs to convert existing stock and infrastructure would be astronomical, and for what gain? What can technology do that a human cannot? You would almost certainly need someone on board anyway to deal with passengers, faults etc so why not just let them drive and save billions.

 

[theironroad]

Pretty easy to but a bunch of cameras, microphones, sensors... They can easily pickup the surrounding environment, especially to the state AI is getting into (you don't need to adapt the infrastructure, apart from communications)

anyway... take a look at this:

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...l/news-story/5a31c83c894bf808c330720351684bfe

but this one takes the prize:

https://www.globalrailhub.com/blogs...not-running-to-schedule#.V8Is_GE1sqA.facebook



Outside transit systems, drivers are here to stay for a long time, even if a complementary role to an automated system.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


But that is restricted to transit systems with similar trains and very controlled environments

I can't access the first linked article but the second one is very interesting,regarding the issues they have had introducing this. I remember the Rio tinto hype a couple of years ago about their plans.

 

[ComUtoR]

Certainly not on the national network in this lifetime. The costs to convert existing stock and infrastructure would be astronomical, and for what gain? What can technology do that a human cannot? You would almost certainly need someone on board anyway to deal with passengers, faults etc so why not just let them drive and save billions.

What about the ATO that will be used on the Thameslink Core section ? That is part of the National Network. It is not a question of IF it will happen, more one of WHEN.

 

[theironroad]

Apologies if this subject has been raised recently, I imagine it could have cropped up at some point.

In the weekend paper there was was an article suggesting driverless trains may not be too far off. With technological advances I can believe that it could happen and have others considered this when taking driver roles?

The article was in the business section of them Times but it did also state that it would take decades to reengineer the network to adapt to driverless.

All thoughts welcome.

Thanks

Don't suppose you've a got a link to the article.

 

[TomBoyd]

What can technology do that a human cannot?

Drive better? Not SPAD? React faster to faults? React automatically to faults? Regulate its speed better? Travel closer to others trains? Drive safer? Have a wider view of the entire network rather than solely being concerned with its own train, while simultaneously being concerned with its own train? Ring out on time? Press its own TRTS on time? Fully understand its own passenger load? etc etc

There are hundreds of things driverless trains will know and do better than driven trains. It might cost billions, but it will, in the long term, save trillions. It will happen. It won't happen quickly, and certainly won't happen on the whole network in our lifetime, but some of it will.

 

[Andy-mc]

Its inevitable that it will happen eventually, especially when you have driverless cars in development that have to deal with a lot more dimensions.

I think in the future the drivers will still be on board but they will be mainly there for the overall monitoring of the train and in case of emergencies, maybe even customer service?

 

[Glenmutchkin]

If there is no driver who will operate the doors?

 

[Dave1987]

Drive better? Not SPAD? React faster to faults? React automatically to faults? Regulate its speed better? Travel closer to others trains? Drive safer? Have a wider view of the entire network rather than solely being concerned with its own train, while simultaneously being concerned with its own train? Ring out on time? Press its own TRTS on time? Fully understand its own passenger load? etc etc

There are hundreds of things driverless trains will know and do better than driven trains. It might cost billions, but it will, in the long term, save trillions. It will happen. It won't happen quickly, and certainly won't happen on the whole network in our lifetime, but some of it will.

Until your driverless train sails straight through the station it's due to stop at during slippy season. Driverless trains can't inspect the line for signallers. How do they cross failed level crossings under local control? How do they assist a failed train? How do they split and attach? This has been discussed repeatedly at length before.

In answer to the OP I don't believe you will ever get truly driverless trains. There will always be a human to supervise.

 

[NSEFAN]

If you built a new, isolated railway from scratch these days, you would probably be able to make it driverless quite easily. Have secure boundaries for the whole route and no level crossings. Platform-edge doors would also help with this. In any case you would want at least one member of staff on board each train to provide assistance in the event of accident or system failure, particularly if the train passes through remote locations.

Retro-fitting driverless technologies onto the mainline railway in its current state is probably not worth it, simply because of the sheer cost and disruption the change would cause. There may be scope for ATO on certain sections to increase capacity, but that's probably one of the only benefits.

 

[grumblingalong]

If there is no driver who will operate the doors?

Conductors. Who can also fix faults, deal with the passengers and manage the computers

 

[Fred Dinenage]

Isn't this the jobs and careers section?

 

[Goingloco]

Isn't this the jobs and careers section?

You're on the ball Fred you'll be fine if technology supersedes the human input.

The reason I'm interested in members opinions is that with a DM interview imminent it would be churlish not to consider the future risks to a long term career. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who has considered this when navigating the recruitment process.

What if in 15 years you're jettisoned as it is deemed more efficient to remove the human? 50 is not the time I'd want to have to retrain and jump back into a hugely competitive job marketplace.

I wanted to understand how others have viewed and many thanks to those who took the time to comment. Really interesting hearing people's opinions far better placed than I.

Unfortunately I'm unable to post a link as it was a good old fashioned hard copy.

Thanks again.

 

[TheEdge]

Driverless trains are not going to happen any time soon on the railways. There are decades and decades of improvements needed to the basic infrastructure before driverless trains could even be considered.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Isn't this the jobs and careers section?

Well this about the future of this section

 

[ComUtoR]

The reason I'm interested in members opinions is that with a DM interview imminent it would be churlish not to consider the future risks to a long term career. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who has considered this when navigating the recruitment process.

I can't wait for Driverless trains. I'm all in favour of automating many aspects of my job. Like others; I believe that they are a long way off and most likely far beyond my working life. However; as that time approaches and they do start automating I see it as a time when I'm getting paid for doing less. My life will be made easier. Who can't support that ? If my role was downgraded to just a train supervisor and I was just some bloke sitting up the front with my hand on the emergency brake then I'm still gonna support that. £50kpa to sit there and watch out for emergencies.. Yeah I'm up for it.

I suppose the fear is more for those who would be entering the grade as the transition takes place. I've heard stories of the issues on the Tube but it will still be a case of going into a role where you are clear that your a glorified babysitter, no doubt paid accordingly.

When this comes in through the core section and on Crossrail ? I'm be watching with interest. If the money was right I'd consider a move to Crossrail if they were automated.

 

[danbarnstall]

We've still got clapped out pacers, the age of only driverless trains running around is a long way off.

The rail network is so vast and the potential cost so big that we are talking about upwards of a 50 year project. Progress is slow in this industry, yes some lines run driver free but they are very much the exception and generally consigned to quite small areas.

 

[Bromley boy]

You're on the ball Fred you'll be fine if technology supersedes the human input.

The reason I'm interested in members opinions is that with a DM interview imminent it would be churlish not to consider the future risks to a long term career. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who has considered this when navigating the recruitment process.

What if in 15 years you're jettisoned as it is deemed more efficient to remove the human? 50 is not the time I'd want to have to retrain and jump back into a hugely competitive job marketplace.

I wanted to understand how others have viewed and many thanks to those who took the time to comment. Really interesting hearing people's opinions far better placed than I.

Unfortunately I'm unable to post a link as it was a good old fashioned hard copy.

Thanks again.

I went through a similar decision process recently when considering joining the industry at a relatively young age.

From what I understand on here, and from reading around the subject, driverless technology on the mainline is a very long way off, apart from on limited metro systems. Even ATO technology, let alone driverless, is not currently on the mainline and will only be making its debut next year in the Thameslink core.

ERTMS rollout is scheduled to take 25 years plus (best case scenario) and would be a precursor to ATO. ATO will not be possible on the current signalling technology.

Even the tube is not expected to go truly "driverless" for at least another 20 years when the New Tube for London is introduced. The tube is a captive system with one type of stock. This should be far, far easier to automate than the mainline, which tells its own story.

Of course what is uncertain is how quickly the drivers role might evolve from "driving" role to a potentially less engaging "monitoring" role as per tube drivers on the ATO lines.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I can't wait for Driverless trains. I'm all in favour of automating many aspects of my job. Like others; I believe that they are a long way off and most likely far beyond my working life. However; as that time approaches and they do start automating I see it as a time when I'm getting paid for doing less. My life will be made easier. Who can't support that ? If my role was downgraded to just a train supervisor and I was just some bloke sitting up the front with my hand on the emergency brake then I'm still gonna support that. £50kpa to sit there and watch out for emergencies.. Yeah I'm up for it.

I suppose the fear is more for those who would be entering the grade as the transition takes place. I've heard stories of the issues on the Tube but it will still be a case of going into a role where you are clear that your a glorified babysitter, no doubt paid accordingly.

When this comes in through the core section and on Crossrail ? I'm be watching with interest. If the money was right I'd consider a move to Crossrail if they were automated.

I guess the problem is that the more automated the job becomes, the less skill and responsibility is demanded from the driver and the harder it becomes to justify the salary paid?!

 

[Flying_Turtle]

The thing is that driverless technology is currently drifting away from infrastructure and going into the AI thing.
With the current Infrastructure, by just enhancing communications, you just have to invest on onboard technology making driverless technology implementation way cheaper than one might think.
As long you have an onboard equipment with an AI capable of interpreting the images and onboard sensors, all connected to a central location for remote supervision you don t need to change a thing on the infrastructure (apart from the said communications thibg) as cameras will pick up the signal aspects and tell the AI where it is by the landscape...

Have no doubt, the capability to do this reliably is arouhd the corner!

 

[Goingloco]

The thing is that driverless technology is currently drifting away from infrastructure and going into the AI thing.
With the current Infrastructure, by just enhancing communications, you just have to invest on onboard technology making driverless technology implementation way cheaper than one might think.
As long you have an onboard equipment with an AI capable of interpreting the images and onboard sensors, all connected to a central location for remote supervision you don t need to change a thing on the infrastructure (apart from the said communications thibg) as cameras will pick up the signal aspects and tell the AI where it is by the landscape...

Have no doubt, the capability to do this reliably is arouhd the corner!

As I believed it may not be as simplistic as 'it will be years before implementation'. From my perspective it is easy to read and agree with the posts that I want to believe if they suit but the varied responses shows that more detailed investigation is required before leaping into a driver role (if indeed one is offered!).

With the way the world is going and the speed of technological advancements it is a concern.

 

[Flying_Turtle]

Nothing is simplistic. I m just pointing out that the physical barrier of infrastructure development is about to become irrelevant in a few years as you mught not need to change a thing on the track. But certainly irlt be overnight

 

[ComUtoR]

but the varied responses shows that more detailed investigation is required before leaping into a driver role (if indeed one is offered!).

With the way the world is going and the speed of technological advancements it is a concern.

Why ?

What would your concerns be ? If you made it into the Driver role then you would be a Train Driver. Good salary and reasonable terms and conditions. If the tech came in whilst you were already in the role you would still keep that good remuneration and still be a Driver. You could switch companies at any time to where there is still manually driven trains. As Drivers we accept that there is technology coming and that we need to use it. The most recent (ish) is the change from CSR to GSMR. For the most part, that change was readily accepted. As someone who will most likely be ATO in a couple of years this still doesn't concern me. I'm a Driver with a decent wage in a decent job.

Granted if you the technology was already widespread then you were a new Driver then you would be joining in the full knowledge you would be more of an "operator" and on whatever remuneration the role then offers. Still that is of little concern.

As it transitions. I still don't see any real reason for concern. Those of us that accept its coming know that it will still be a significant time in the future so will plod along in our job quite happily. Those of us who believe its just around the corner still plod along happily. Its something new to learn and if we didn't like I then we could skip to another company. Even if it came in tomorrow there would still be a transitional period so we still plod along happily.

What I do not see, in any way, shape, or form. Is that when it comes in it will happen so suddenly that we would all be made redundant the next day. On the really really remote chance in a million that happens we would still be in a job because someone needs to "operate" the units.

I honestly do not see a reason where this would change your decisions about getting the job. Scarily. In my interview many moons ago... I was asked about Driverless trains and automation etc. If I was your interviewer and you gave any concerns then I would certainly score it against you. Part of our role is to accept that potential change. Look at where trains are today compared with 10yrs ago or 20 or even 30yrs ago.

I don't say that to be mean but your last sentence concerned me. I honestly do not see any reasons for concern and as someone who has been driving choo choos for some time there has been lots of technological changes.

ATO is literally looking at me and scheduling me in for training. The reality for me is that it IS happening.

 

[JohnChuchu]

New Thameslink Class 700 will drive themselves across Central London when the programme finishes

 

[Dave1987]

New Thameslink Class 700 will drive themselves across Central London when the programme finishes

Only in the core.

 

[theking]

I was really surprised they didn't make the full Crossrail route ATO.

I think it's ato in the core section and the branch to abbey wood.

 

[Goingloco]

Why ?

What would your concerns be ? If you made it into the Driver role then you would be a Train Driver. Good salary and reasonable terms and conditions. If the tech came in whilst you were already in the role you would still keep that good remuneration and still be a Driver. You could switch companies at any time to where there is still manually driven trains. As Drivers we accept that there is technology coming and that we need to use it. The most recent (ish) is the change from CSR to GSMR. For the most part, that change was readily accepted. As someone who will most likely be ATO in a couple of years this still doesn't concern me. I'm a Driver with a decent wage in a decent job.

Granted if you the technology was already widespread then you were a new Driver then you would be joining in the full knowledge you would be more of an "operator" and on whatever remuneration the role then offers. Still that is of little concern.

As it transitions. I still don't see any real reason for concern. Those of us that accept its coming know that it will still be a significant time in the future so will plod along in our job quite happily. Those of us who believe its just around the corner still plod along happily. Its something new to learn and if we didn't like I then we could skip to another company. Even if it came in tomorrow there would still be a transitional period so we still plod along happily.

What I do not see, in any way, shape, or form. Is that when it comes in it will happen so suddenly that we would all be made redundant the next day. On the really really remote chance in a million that happens we would still be in a job because someone needs to "operate" the units.

I honestly do not see a reason where this would change your decisions about getting the job. Scarily. In my interview many moons ago... I was asked about Driverless trains and automation etc. If I was your interviewer and you gave any concerns then I would certainly score it against you. Part of our role is to accept that potential change. Look at where trains are today compared with 10yrs ago or 20 or even 30yrs ago.

I don't say that to be mean but your last sentence concerned me. I honestly do not see any reasons for concern and as someone who has been driving choo choos for some time there has been lots of technological changes.

ATO is literally looking at me and scheduling me in for training. The reality for me is that it IS happening.

Many thanks for such a detailed response. It is good to have an insiders view for sure. I would certainly embrace additional training if the opportunity was presented. Hopefully I will have a decision to make in due course.

Thanks again, some really helpful thoughts/advice.

 

[Trainguy90]

it will inevitably happen one day, but on a network that still has areas of semaphore (not all kept for historical purposes like Shrewsbury) i think its safe to say we are at least a couple of decades away

 

[Flying_Turtle]

But I was pointing is that on board technology can deal with ant kind of signalling as long you have proper comunications