Drivers refuse to work overtime ?!

[Jamesb1974]

I quite agree. I don't work in the rail industry, but where I do work, on occasions we are asked if we want to work overtime, for example if we are particularly busy or there is a special project needs to be finished within a timescale. There is no compulsion to work overtime, and out of the six people who work in my office, three of them never do it at all. I will work it if it suits me, but sometimes I have plans outside of my work, as I'm sure many rail staff will.

Unfortunately, not all work places see overtime as voluntary. Some employers put upon staff to work o/t as if it is some kind of obligation or 'loyalty' to the company. This is when employers fall into the trap of basing their business on good will from the employee to the employer. At some point, the good will evaporates and employees turn around and say "You know what? Stick it. I'm not working this weekend". Then the whole thing grinds to a halt, purely because the employer hasn't had the foresight to solve the underlying issue (lack of staff to do the jobs without resorting to overtime working).

I suspect that this is the position that Southern have now found themselves in.

 

[MichaelAMW]

It's a fact that when you get to a certain earnings level, you pay most of it to the taxman. Why bother working extra shifts when you see no real benefit?

Not true for at-source tax since the NI earnings limit and the higher tax rate kick in at the same point, i.e. that puts your marginal tax rate at 42%. However, if you then spend your take-home pay on things with lots of other tax, e.g. VAT, fuel duty, booze duty etc then you might well be right.

 

[asylumxl]

Don't really see the issue with the driver refusing-if they are finished and have plans etc then it's their right. The driver wasn't responsible for the initial wrong routing and shunting to another platform is likely to take the best part of 20mins realistically so if they have a train to catch, kids to collect from school/childcare, something arranged after work, car to pick up from garage etc then they are likely to refuse. As said, if it was blocking a running line then very different but in a terminal it's not down to the driver.

If it was blocking a running line then generally a driver will agree to move the train out the way (at a relief point like Hitchin, many drivers will agree to move the unit out the platform and into the up yard but no further. That gets it out of the way of the running lines.

Don't get the wrong end of the stick. As I said I'm not criticising him. Just asking what the policy is on such things.

 

[A-driver]

Don't get the wrong end of the stick. As I said I'm not criticising him. Just asking what the policy is on such things.

Wasn't aiming anything at you, just pointing out that shunting platform to platform isn't likely to be a quick '2min job'. Appreciate you were not having a go at the driver.

 

[E&W Lucas]

I had experience one evening of a Meridian being routed in to the wrong platform at St Pancras, or something to that effect. This meant an incoming service couldn't fit in the platform and the other platforms were occupied by stabled trains. The driver flat out refused to move the train (not a criticism) and walked off. It took a while before someone was found who could do the move.



So what is the consensus on such things?

All a bit vague.
Congestion is not uncommon at major terminals, and unscheduled ECS moves are often required. It's why you have standby and spare drivers, as a contingency against the unexpected.

If the driver had finished his diagram, he's fulfilled his contract.
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Not true for at-source tax since the NI earnings limit and the higher tax rate kick in at the same point, i.e. that puts your marginal tax rate at 42%. However, if you then spend your take-home pay on things with lots of other tax, e.g. VAT, fuel duty, booze duty etc then you might well be right.

Rest days are usually paid at flat rate. Allowing for the higher marginal rate of tax, you are therefore working for less per hour than normal.

Reading the article, it sounds like some "local difficulties" that have been picked up on by the media.

 

[A-driver]

As far as I understand it from a very brief conversation with a mate on southern the drivers feel that ASLEF agreed to a very poor pay deal when considering rival TOCs pay and conditions, amount of goodwill put in, increases in productivity through diagramming etc and feel that Company Council are too friendly with management and so not truely representing them. Therefore this RD boycott is as much aimed at aslef as it it management.

 

[Tom B]

Overtime is a funny one. In my non-railway employment, the policy states that overtime MUST NOT be used to regularly fill a roster i.e. as a replacement for hiring more staff, but it is only suitable to cover if someone goes sick, if there is a particular demand for leave (by agreement), extra works out of hours, cover for especially busy times etc. If people get tired of doing overtime they tend to pass on the more difficult overtime and just pick up the easier shifts..

I believe that it is possible to oblige persons to work overtime, as indeed has been stated with drivers obliged to work overtime if the service is delayed, within parameters (e.g. to the next station with a depot or a yard to put the train in etc).

There is also "custom and practice" which could be a factor if this has been regular (if the company wanted to pursue it). For instance, I have worked a regular overtime shift once a month for the last 4 years. If my employers wanted to they could argue that agreed to do it every month by "custom and practice" and, I suspect, insist that I do it.

 

[physics34]

Im a Southern driver, there is very little i can say about this for reasons of self-protection!!...

Basically we get standard hourly rate plus a "booking on fee" for working a rest day.

The booking on fee has stayed the same since 1997. I believe the idea of this "action" is to get that raised so it is close to other TOCs terms.

This action has nothing to do with employing other drivers...it isnt a strike, the union were not originally involved (but are now) it was a in-house decision.
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As far as I understand it from a very brief conversation with a mate on southern the drivers feel that ASLEF agreed to a very poor pay deal when considering rival TOCs pay and conditions, amount of goodwill put in, increases in productivity through diagramming etc and feel that Company Council are too friendly with management and so not truely representing them. Therefore this RD boycott is as much aimed at aslef as it it management.

its not aimed at aslef. It was action taken without aslefs input originally because aslef do not want to promote rest day working (for southern anyway).

But now aslef are involved, a rest day agreement with southern is being discussed.

 

[asylumxl]

All a bit vague.


Congestion is not uncommon at major terminals, and unscheduled ECS moves are often required. It's why you have standby and spare drivers, as a contingency against the unexpected.





If the driver had finished his diagram, he's fulfilled his contract..

If you want more detail I am quite sure it was a 7 carriage 222 in to a platform which was supposed to have 2x5 carriage 222 in it at the end of service.



And like I said, I wasn't criticising him one bit so no need to be defensive. I know many of the reasons he wouldn't have moved the train and hence I didn't say anything more.

 

[northwichcat]

Could you please tell me more about that?

I'm totally baffled at how public consultation could suggest a change to staff work conditions...

Best place to look is the document linked to here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=101715

I think the idea is traditionally Sundays had significantly less trains than weekdays (a train every 2 or 3 hours) but the consultation was suggesting many more Sunday services (a train every hour on most lines), which would make it impossible for the timetable to be operated if Sunday was considered a rest day.

 

[DelayRepay]

There is also "custom and practice" which could be a factor if this has been regular (if the company wanted to pursue it). For instance, I have worked a regular overtime shift once a month for the last 4 years. If my employers wanted to they could argue that agreed to do it every month by "custom and practice" and, I suspect, insist that I do it.

In a previous life I had a similar situation. I worked every other Saturday morning as overtime. For this I received time and a half but the company did not pay any additional pension contributions, the hours weren't part of my annual leave calculation and the money I earned through overtime wasn't taken into account when calculating my annual bonus.

I informed the manager that I could not work one Saturday as I was going to a wedding. He told me I could only take the day off if someone would cover. I reminded him that it was my day off and therefore I wasn't obliged to work. He told me I was due to "custom and practice" and that in effect the hours were part of my contracted working week.

I asked him when I should expect to receive my backdated pension contributions and backdated holiday pay.

This dispute rumbled on for a few days until the manager was fired due to a completely unrelated matter. All the staff breathed a sigh of relief.

 

[WCMLaddict]

Best place to look is the document linked to here: http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=101715

I think the idea is traditionally Sundays had significantly less trains than weekdays (a train every 2 or 3 hours) but the consultation was suggesting many more Sunday services (a train every hour on most lines), which would make it impossible for the timetable to be operated if Sunday was considered a rest day.

So basically, once again, you're talking about something you have no idea about. Sundays being left out, has nothing to do with drivers availability if more services are required. As a matter of fact, most of Northern Rail depots have Sunday equalisation arrangements because there are more people willing to work than turns available!

 

[142094]

Since April 2014 overtime pay is also now pensionable - in previous years drivers might have been inclined to work overtime to add to their monthly salary, but having to pay tax/NI and now pension contributions on what is earned means that it might not be worth it.

Also worth noting that pension contributions change if you earn more than £43,001 (rate goes up to 8.5%).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

As a salutory lesson - in BR days - management staff were expected to do extra hours for no pay (15% on call allowance) - which got to stupid levels of accrued hours - following numerous call outs , 2 in 3 on call weeks - and general shambles - such that I once asked for the rest of the year off from November.

This did not go down well.

 

[northwichcat]

So basically, once again, you're talking about something you have no idea about. Sundays being left out, has nothing to do with drivers availability if more services are required. As a matter of fact, most of Northern Rail depots have Sunday equalisation arrangements because there are more people willing to work than turns available!

So you're saying Northern can operate double the existing frequency on certain lines on Sunday (assuming no engineering works) because there are so many crews wanting to work Sundays. This is despite the fact Northern sometimes bustitute the evening Manchester area trains on Sundays due to 'a crew member being unavailable' a lot more than they do on Saturdays. Maybe what you say is only true of some Northern depots.

 

[Class 170101]

Most drivers would help & I personally, unless had something on, would help out my duty crew manager or control. It is over & above the diagram so would be perfectly in order to refuse.

Sadly I have heard of situations during industrial disputes where the duty contoller has asked a driver to drive a train back to home depot in service incurring a couple of minutes overtime and the driver refuse. ECS instead back home and lots of disgruntled passengers.

 

[dk1]

Sunday's will always have a reduced service as very few going lates to early can catch a turn with 12hrs rest either side.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sadly I have heard of situations during industrial disputes where the duty contoller has asked a driver to drive a train back to home depot in service incurring a couple of minutes overtime and the driver refuse. ECS instead back home and lots of disgruntled passengers.

Oh of course you would never help out when in dispute, that goes without saying.

 

[WCMLaddict]

So you're saying Northern can operate double the existing frequency on certain lines on Sunday (assuming no engineering works) because there are so many crews wanting to work Sundays. This is despite the fact Northern sometimes bustitute the evening Manchester area trains on Sundays due to 'a crew member being unavailable' a lot more than they do on Saturdays. Maybe what you say is only true of some Northern depots.

No. Are you saying that 'bringing Sundays in' is going to sort out the problem of depending on staff working overtime?
Only employing sufficient number of staff will, just like ainsworth said.

Sunday working conditions we have on the west side are the last thing we will let go. I mean it.

 

[notadriver]

Don't other - driving jobs such as - bus driving rely on their staff doing overtime ? How do they manage?

 

[A-driver]

So you're saying Northern can operate double the existing frequency on certain lines on Sunday (assuming no engineering works) because there are so many crews wanting to work Sundays. This is despite the fact Northern sometimes bustitute the evening Manchester area trains on Sundays due to 'a crew member being unavailable' a lot more than they do on Saturdays. Maybe what you say is only true of some Northern depots.

I think you have misunderstood the Sunday issues. Working week or not, they still need a certain number of drivers to run services without relying on overtime. This is true of Sunday's weather compulsory or not. Infact you are more likely to find trains cancelled due to no crew mon to sat than on a Sunday, sickness rates are far lower on a Sunday for example as someone not feeling great is more likely to struggle into work on a Sunday as they don't get paid if they go sick like they do mon-sat. And generally there are ore volunteers for Sunday work that available work. At my TOC many who want work get left without most of the time.

And as has been said, many TOCs use Sunday as a turnaround day from lates-earlies so if you book off at 0230 on sat night and are on 0330 mon morning you can only work one hour Sunday.

 

[BestWestern]

In a previous life I had a similar situation. I worked every other Saturday morning as overtime. For this I received time and a half but the company did not pay any additional pension contributions, the hours weren't part of my annual leave calculation and the money I earned through overtime wasn't taken into account when calculating my annual bonus.

I informed the manager that I could not work one Saturday as I was going to a wedding. He told me I could only take the day off if someone would cover. I reminded him that it was my day off and therefore I wasn't obliged to work. He told me I was due to "custom and practice" and that in effect the hours were part of my contracted working.

I'm completely unconvinced that any 'custom and practice' argument would stand up if properly challenged. Overtime is overtime, and remains entirely optional as it lies outside of the requirements of your contract. That manager sounds like a bully.

One thing the Northern/TPE consultation mentioned is making Sundays part of the working week. I'm surprised that didn't get more attention but the RMT only seemed interested in the suggestion of DOO.

During previous 'restructuring' talks at a different TOC a few years back, the RMT adopted a firm policy that no negotiation would take place regarding bringing sundays inside of the working week. I would expect the same response here, particularly with the upcoming potential of DOO (optional sunday working allows for the equivalent of industrial action without the long drawn out strike ballot process).

 

[Bald Rick]

AIUI, the 'dispute' (which strictly speaking it isn't), is regarding the amount paid to drivers for agreeing to work a rest day shift. This is paid regardless of whether he/she has to work it or not. There is then pay for the hours worked on top of the 'call out' fee.

 

[A-driver]

AIUI, the 'dispute' (which strictly speaking it isn't), is regarding the amount paid to drivers for agreeing to work a rest day shift. This is paid regardless of whether he/she has to work it or not. There is then pay for the hours worked on top of the 'call out' fee.

Yes. Southern are fairly behind other TOCs on this front. They get a 'sign on fee' (I believe it's roughly £45 per rest day worked regardless of hours) and then get the flat hourly rate dependant on the length of the diagram they work. Compare that to the ex FCC franchise which is merging with southern and ex FCC get £50 to book on and then time+15% per rest day worked or can opt to take no sign on fee, get paid time at the flat rate and get a day in lieu, which ever is chosen by the driver.

 

[talltim]

It's a fact that when you get to a certain earnings level, you pay most of it to the taxman. Why bother working extra shifts when you see no real benefit?
What you will find are a lot of railwaypeople will work extra shifts if they are asked nicely and not told they are doing it.
I want doesn't get in most workplaces nowadays.

Drivers I can understand, because they get enough money to live comfortably without overtime (which I think they deserve). But, I've heard it from people on minimum wage* in warehouses too.
*actually, before the minimum wage legislation was introduced

 

[ComUtoR]

Yes. Southern are fairly behind other TOCs on this front. They get a 'sign on fee' (I believe it's roughly £45 per rest day worked regardless of hours) and then get the flat hourly rate dependant on the length of the diagram they work.

That is what SE now get. The £45 has been in place since I first started and has never increased.

Compare that to the ex FCC franchise which is merging with southern and ex FCC get £50 to book on and then time+15% per rest day worked or can opt to take no sign on fee, get paid time at the flat rate and get a day in lieu, which ever is chosen by the driver.

SE DCC have recently finalized and agreed our pay deal and one of the new clauses is that the % bonus per hour for RDW has been removed. Considering we have the same negotiator (GM) I do wonder about the disparity between agreements on local TOC's SE have clearly taken a backwards step.

 

[Class2ldn]

I thought southern have just had the hourly rate increased and the booking on fee increased to £50?

 

[Southern Dvr]

As far as I understand it from a very brief conversation with a mate on southern the drivers feel that ASLEF agreed to a very poor pay deal when considering rival TOCs pay and conditions, amount of goodwill put in, increases in productivity through diagramming etc and feel that Company Council are too friendly with management and so not truely representing them. Therefore this RD boycott is as much aimed at aslef as it it management.

Word perfect

 

[Jamesb1974]

I'm completely unconvinced that any 'custom and practice' argument would stand up if properly challenged. Overtime is overtime, and remains entirely optional as it lies outside of the requirements of your contract. That manager sounds like a bully.

I agree totally. I've often said that people who give into management 'coercion' to 'go the extra mile' (or custom and practice or what ever you want to call it) are just making trouble for themselves.

I remember very clearly an ex colleague, sadly since deceased being brought in before the Inspector to explain why was performing quite as well as the rest of the shift. The Inspector's answer was to action plan said colleague and set him a target figure of five self generated arrests per fortnight. At the end of the fortnight he had made seven arrests.

So guess what? The Inspector was mightily impressed and said "See! I told you could do it. Now lets see if we can get nine arrests. If you can do seven that easily, you can do nine standing on your head". So he did. He went out and came back with ten arrests.

"See! I knew you could do it! Lets see if we can't get twelve..."

And on it went until the poor bugger was buried under a mountain of paperwork relating to his action plan performance and was then put on another action plan for not dealing with his correspondence, all brought about by the first bloody action plan to start with!

That's how it starts. "Stay an extra half hour" becomes and hour, that becomes two, that becomes three. It is a very slippery slope to be on.

 

[whoosh]

Yes. Southern are fairly behind other TOCs on this front. They get a 'sign on fee' (I believe it's roughly £45 per rest day worked regardless of hours) and then get the flat hourly rate dependant on the length of the diagram they work. Compare that to the ex FCC franchise which is merging with southern and ex FCC get £50 to book on and then time+15% per rest day worked or can opt to take no sign on fee, get paid time at the flat rate and get a day in lieu, which ever is chosen by the driver.

Ex-FCC:

Not quite, it's Time + 15% plus £50

OR

15% only (not flat rate, just 15%) and a day in lieu.

 

[A-driver]

Ex-FCC:



Not quite, it's Time + 15% plus £50



OR



15% only (not flat rate, just 15%) and a day in lieu.

Ah, fair enough, I generally take the money!