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Drivers - things allowable in the cab?

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Flywaver

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Not sure which planet you're on but where did you get that idea...?? Our 66 cabs are very basic, if we need to answer the call of nature we either have to 'plan ahead' or wait for a convenient point in the journey.

As for eating and drinking whilst driving, it's perfectly acceptable.... if it wasn't, the cabs wouldn't be fitted with electric hobs to heat up food and water. I often use it to mash my own tea with my old enamel brew can. It's all down to good judgement and common sense. We don't all have trolley dollies unfortunately so we have to take all our snap with us!

Driving freight trains, I don't have to worry about passengers looking over my shoulder, and frankly I wouldn't want it either, we have enough responsibility as it is without any additional distractions. I do understand that it's nothing new here and other countries already have interior windows between the driving cab and passenger seating but I just don't see the point. My brother is a passenger driver and the grief he gets from passengers knocking on the cab door is unbelievable.

;)

Here here! Im at a stage now that any punter bangs on my door i tell them to speak to my Guard and if they dont listen ill stop the Train and get them arrested. Had a Safety Brief recently and its getting to the stage of having to ignore people once im set up in the cab. Especially at our terminus's.
We are on a high level of Terrorism threat..
I mmiss Loco's purely for that barrier away from distractions behind.
The Turbostar family should of been designed with another door behind and cab doorfrom the seat.
 
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Pumbaa

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VT drivers are allowed their company control mobile on with them in the cab. Not to be used while driving, and can call TM to take a call for them while they're driving to avoid stopping the job.

LM is an all phones must be off. The Guard/Conductor will be messaged of any change of plan, and it is their responsibility to inform the driver if needs be.

ATW both now have company BlackBerries; drivers have to be on silent while Guards are free to use. I think this also applies to Northern.
 

Death

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Germany’s Siemens Velaro ICE3 high speed trains also have a glass screen between the passenger lounge and the cab, so it is surprising just how prevalent “drivers eye view” arrangements still are.
There are different rules in Germany though, so presumably it's either impossible to sue DBAG for any kind of "psychological trauma" from witnessing any such incident (After all, ye don't have to sit in the front carriage!) or there's a clause somewhere in the DBAG conditions of carriage which warns about the possibility of witnessing such things from the front cab. :)

Also; It's now possible for glass screens to have an LCD layer fitted to them so that the window can be instantly blacked-out whenever it may be necessary with just the press of a button or computer triggered event. This is used on passenger windows on the Tokyo Metro to maintain the privacy of those people whose windows (And homes) could otherwise be seen into from on board a passing train. :)

Not sure which planet you're on but where did you get that idea...??
I'm sure that I've heard of "comfort pipes" being mentioned before on here and elsewhere, and given that drivers have to sit at the controls for long hours (And that such wet waste could safely flow into the four-foot) it's not an unreasonable consideration.
Given that I've only heard of such "comfort pipes" being mentioned in a railway context, I can't see what else their name could be applied to! :shock:
 

jon0844

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If passengers could still see out the front these days and there was an incident it's possible some would try and sue the TOC for psychological damage. This is why I doubt it will ever be allowed again.

People can try and sue for anything, but I hope that we will treat such claims with the contempt they deserve to stop everyone playing safe.
 

sprinterguy

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There are different rules in Germany though, so presumably it's either impossible to sue DBAG for any kind of "psychological trauma" from witnessing any such incident (After all, ye don't have to sit in the front carriage!) or there's a clause somewhere in the DBAG conditions of carriage which warns about the possibility of witnessing such things from the front cab. :)

Also; It's now possible for glass screens to have an LCD layer fitted to them so that the window can be instantly blacked-out whenever it may be necessary with just the press of a button or computer triggered event. This is used on passenger windows on the Tokyo Metro to maintain the privacy of those people whose windows (And homes) could otherwise be seen into from on board a passing train. :)

True: Known as "smart glass" I believe? I think the ICE3s have a similar set up for their glass screens. Could be wrong though.

That still leaves the Tyne and Wear Metrocars in this country though. Given the number of ungated level crossings on the Metro system (although generally only crossed at low speed) and the fact that the crumple zone seems to consist of the frontmost passengers' knees, it does surprise me that the arrangement is accepted without question.
 

JoeGJ1984

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Isn't the Croydon Tramlink similar to the Tyne and Wear Metro in that you can get a near driver's eye view from the front?
 

sprinterguy

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Isn't the Croydon Tramlink similar to the Tyne and Wear Metro in that you can get a near driver's eye view from the front?
The Docklands Light Railway layout is more akin to the TW Metro. Croydon Tramlinks’ passenger accommodation is behind the drivers’ cab, in the same style as the Midland Metro, with a fair amount of forward vision over the drivers’ shoulder.
 

ChrisCooper

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All the tram systems have clear glass between the passenger compartment and the cab, although as with the railways they have blinds that can be pulled down at night.

I don't think there are any regulations in regards to preventing passengers seeing into the cabs. I've been on a few older units where the driver has had the blinds up, mostly on railtours (such as both the 312 tours and the 101 tour) during the day, but also a few normal runs with 101s and 312s.

The only significant thing is that all trains from the 80s onwards have been built without a view from the passenger compartment into the cab, and some types (such as the 303s) have been refurbished like that.

Will be interesting to see if Eurostar do get their ICE type trains if these keep the forward view. Oviously on the continent it is felt to be a good thing, and it was something quite heavily promoted when the 1st generation DMUs were introduced. Even having a clear partition to the rear cab, so passengers could see back like with the old observation cars, would be a big improvement over what we have. The UK in general though does seem to go down the route of boxing the passenger in. Almost wonder if the next generation of high speed train won't have windows at all.
 

ainsworth74

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True: Known as "smart glass" I believe? I think the ICE3s have a similar set up for their glass screens. Could be wrong though.

They do have this 'smart glass' and it turns opaque when the train is running under caution signals I believe.
 

Death

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Trains would actually be safer if they didn't have windows.
Ye just reminded me of one of the "Billy Brown" cartoons from the last War, where a passenger is depicted pulling the anti-splinter netting away from a Tube window because the view was far too obstructed...
Billy: My man, that is not right! I trust you'll pardon my correction, but that stuff is there for your protection!
Commonly added to this where the cartoon was posted in public places would be a speech bubble from the passengers mouth, with the following;
Passenger: I thank you for your information, but I can't see the Bloody station!
Nay...Taking windows out of trains wouldn't work. It'd also make trains less safe because there wouldn't be two walls full of emergency exits that passengers could rely upon if needed! :!:

With my studded gloves on, I can punch through train windows without too much trouble (As long as I have some way of getting air into the vacuum between the glazing) but I wouldn't be able to get my fist through extruded steel carriage side no matter how hard I tried! :shock:
 

Zoe

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there wouldn't be two walls full of emergency exits that passengers could rely upon if needed! :!:
FGWs HST windows are no longer emergency exits. The windows are no longer breakable. They have good reason for this though, Ufton Nervet showed as people can fall out of the windows with fatal consequences.
 

Rugd1022

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I'm sure that I've heard of "comfort pipes" being mentioned before on here and elsewhere, and given that drivers have to sit at the controls for long hours (And that such wet waste could safely flow into the four-foot) it's not an unreasonable consideration.
Given that I've only heard of such "comfort pipes" being mentioned in a railway context, I can't see what else their name could be applied to! :shock:

Even if there were, do you think any of us would want to use them after someone else has...? Not me squire, I'd rather hold on and wait until I come to a stand at a signal somewhere. I try to keep my cab as clean and tidy as possible but with the best will in the world I don't think it's very practical..... let's see.... keeping one foot on the deadmans peddle, keeping an eye on the road, keeping an eye on the speedo and brake pipe gauge, keeping an eye out for obstructions, tresspassers and warning signs.....whilst keeping your Jap eye aimed at the 'comfort pipe' without spilling wee all over yourself / the controls / the cab floor, jolting about at 60mph on a rough bit of track...... :roll:

Not sure whether to laugh or cry at that!
 

pendolino

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Would you say driving a train is easier than driving a car? You don't have to be concerned about what is going on behind and to the side of you. All you have to be concerend with is the line ahead of you. Travelling at 125 mph with hundreds of passengers behind you though is not a responibility I'd want.

Obviously not all trains do that speed and a lot of metro style trains will be lucky if they do half that.

I think driving a train on a bright sunny day is easier than driving a car.

Driving a train is not really anything like driving a car. When driving a car, you react to what you see ahead of you; driving a train you have to be aware of what's ahead before you see it, which is why route knowledge is so important.

Some examples:

If a signal shows two yellows, you need to be thinking about where the red is, and where your braking point is in order to stop at that red (preferably without setting off the TPWS!), which may be a different point depending on the unit braking characteristics, loading, gradients and especially railhead conditions. (Try it in your car: when you pass a green traffic light, imagine you're on the railway and the next traffic light is two yellows, if such a thing existed on the road. Where's your red?)

When stopping at stations, again, you need to think about where to shut off power and where to brake - braking on sight of the station is likely to lead to you running straight out the other side; how you brake for the station depends again on unit, gradient, rail head conditions etc. And the braking technique used may depend on where on the platform the stop car mark is for the length of train you're driving (4 car train might stop midway down the platform; 8 car mark might be at the far end). Which of course leads to other considerations that the car driver need not worry about: stopping short, or failing to call, or making an unscheduled call, or opening doors on the wrong side, or leaving early if you're booked waiting time at a particular station.

Similarly for permanent/temporary speed restrictions: the driver needs to know from memory where to brake to avoid overspeeding and/or setting off TPWS overspeed grids - braking when you see the board marking the reduction in linespeed will very likely result in the train overspeeding. And where line speed increases, the driver needs to judge when his entire train is past the point where the speed changes, which might be different depending on the length of train. For example, where linespeed increases from, say, 30mph to 50mph, if a driver takes power too early such that the train is travelling at 35mph before the rear coach has fully passed the speed increase then he's speeding and could end up off track and being investigated.

A car driver doesn't need to know what he's passed, whereas the train driver needs to remember what the last signal aspect was so he knows what's coming up. Which sounds easy, and it is for the most part, except for where signal sections are very long, when the mind starts to wander, and the train approaches the next signal round a blind bend (with no banner repeater) with the driver trying to remember whether his last signal was one or two yellows....

And the same applies for stations where there is no starter signal, and the previous signal was single yellow. Which means that the next signal, perhaps hidden round the corner, is a red. But he's forgotten he came in on a single yellow because he's been distracted by concentrating on stopping at the right mark on the platform, carrying out station duties, opening and closing doors, checking his diagram, answering a passenger's questions etc. etc. etc. So he accelerates away from the station and ends up having a SOYSPAD. Hence the reason for using the DRA and professional driving techniques such as checking the AWS sunflower and taking reduced power.

And then there's a signalling problem so the signaller asks you to terminate short and carry out a shunt move that you've only done once before and that was 5 years ago when you first learnt the route. Which is ok, because the signaller is (usually) happy to talk you through the move, except for when they tut and say 'You do actually sign this route, don't you driver!?'. Assuming you can understand what he's saying because the reception on the CSR is so appalling.

All this, in the absolute pitch black and thick fog on some rural route (no streetlights!) and maybe you're tired because you're coming up to the end of your turn and you've been up since 2am, as you have been for the last 7 days, and you couldn't get to sleep last night. And then BEEPBEEPBEEPBEEPBEEP as the train decides to frighten the life out of you to tell you toilet's out of order because the toilet tank's full up - exactly the same alarm sound as if you've lost door interlock or something.

It's a great job, I love it. But it's nothing like driving a car.
 

Spagnoletti

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Even if there were, do you think any of us would want to use them after someone else has...? Not me squire, I'd rather hold on and wait until I come to a stand at a signal somewhere. I try to keep my cab as clean and tidy as possible but with the best will in the world I don't think it's very practical..... let's see.... keeping one foot on the deadmans peddle, keeping an eye on the road, keeping an eye on the speedo and brake pipe gauge, keeping an eye out for obstructions, tresspassers and warning signs.....whilst keeping your Jap eye aimed at the 'comfort pipe' without spilling wee all over yourself / the controls / the cab floor, jolting about at 60mph on a rough bit of track...... :roll:

Not sure whether to laugh or cry at that!

There's always that enamel billycan you mentioned earlier :)

Of course in the days of locos and double manning some classes had a urinal. No lady drivers in them days.
 

notadriver

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I've understand all your points but I was talking about under ideal conditions, green signals and presuming your route knowledge was second to none. I still think driving a train can at times be easier - I've had a few goes ;)
 

E&W Lucas

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I've understand all your points but I was talking about under ideal conditions, green signals and presuming your route knowledge was second to none. I still think driving a train can at times be easier - I've had a few goes ;)

There's a lot of difference between driving a train, and being a train driver. Driving, with someone telling you what to do (a la footplate experience course), is just pulling a lever. You can train a monkey to do that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Would you say driving a train is easier than driving a car? You don't have to be concerned about what is going on behind and to the side of you. All you have to be concerend with is the line ahead of you. Travelling at 125 mph with hundreds of passengers behind you though is not a responibility I'd want.

The two activities are totally separate. Would you compare it to driving a horse?

To add a little to some of the posts above, drivers have to have a detailed understanding of the machine that they are operating, and also of the procedures that they must follow in any given situation. That is without even considering route knowledge, as explained above. The operation of the machine is only a part of their competence. Oh, and everything you do is recorded on a data recorder.

Is it difficult? It's a job that can bit you in the backside at any moment if you get complacent. It's also a role that you've either "got it" for, or you haven't. Only a small fraction of the hopefuls can pass the aptitude tests, so that suggests that they would not fare too well if they actually tried to function as a driver. Yet most of the population can drive a car. You won't find many train drivers who think the job is difficult; what you will find is a group of people with a healthy respect for the task.
 

Butts

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Is it true that some TOC's permitted drivers to carry on smoking in their cabs after it had been banned for the passengers within the train.

If this is true which TOC was the first to ban drivers smoking in the cab and which was the last ?

I am talking pre 2007 ban here (or 2006 in Ecosse):D
 

driver9000

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Smoking in the cab was permitted right up to the smoking ban. I'm not aware of any operator banning it prior to that date in 2007.
 

LE Greys

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Even if there were, do you think any of us would want to use them after someone else has...? Not me squire, I'd rather hold on and wait until I come to a stand at a signal somewhere. I try to keep my cab as clean and tidy as possible but with the best will in the world I don't think it's very practical..... let's see.... keeping one foot on the deadmans peddle, keeping an eye on the road, keeping an eye on the speedo and brake pipe gauge, keeping an eye out for obstructions, tresspassers and warning signs.....whilst keeping your Jap eye aimed at the 'comfort pipe' without spilling wee all over yourself / the controls / the cab floor, jolting about at 60mph on a rough bit of track...... :roll:

Not sure whether to laugh or cry at that!

Try something similar when strapped in an ejector seat at 40,000 ft at 500 knots, possibly in the dark, definitely while keeping one hand on the stick, watching your heading, altitude and artificial horizon. You've got to keep an eye open for people losing position if you're in formation to avoid hitting them, hope that there's no turbulence (imagine where things can go) and that you don't encounter a stray goose (they go very high). Also imagine that you've been stuck where you are for up to eight hours (non-stop because of in-flight refuelling). Just count yourself lucky that it is possible to stop when on the ground.

No wonder the Su-35 has a real toilet instead of a relief tube, and someone else to take over the flying for you while you're using it.
 

ainsworth74

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No wonder the Su-35 has a real toilet instead of a relief tube, and someone else to take over the flying for you while you're using it.

Well I suspect the other guy in a Su-34 ;))) is there for a bit more than just flying the plane while the pilot's on the toilet. I think probably navigating and being a the weapons operator is at least a few other major roles :lol:
 

bnm

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I thought cabs were fitted with comfort pipes to alleviate that sort of problem arising? :?:

Comfort pipes??? I could do with one of those as I've just p155ed myself laughing at the idea. One bit of lateral sway over poor alignment or pointwork and you micturate all over the cab floor. And I certainly wouldn't want to put my chap in a pipe that others have used.

Oh, and do you know what? There are female train drivers out there. Is there some sort of attachment for them as well?
 

LE Greys

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Comfort pipes??? I could do with one of those as I've just p155ed myself laughing at the idea. One bit of lateral sway over poor alignment or pointwork and you micturate all over the cab floor. And I certainly wouldn't want to put my chap in a pipe that others have used.

Oh, and do you know what? There are female train drivers out there. Is there some sort of attachment for them as well?

There certainly is on the relief tube, or at least the NASA ones that I've seen. The idea is that you carry your own around with you, to make sure that nobody else uses it.
 

Death

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Even if there were, do you think any of us would want to use [comfort pipes] after someone else has...? Not me squire, I'd rather hold on and wait until I come to a stand at a signal somewhere!
Comfort pipes??? I could do with one of those as I've just p155ed myself laughing at the idea. One bit of lateral sway over poor alignment or pointwork and you micturate all over the cab floor.
Ooops...Seems like that was rather illogical thinking on my part! That said, I suppose there's a good reason why the slow roads are called "relief" lines... :shock:;):lol:

ComfortOh, and do you know what? There are female train drivers out there. Is there some sort of attachment for them as well?
Well, I don't have the foggiest idea where I originally read the phrase and formed my misconception, but given that something like that could've existed in earlier days before modern concerns over cleanliness arose (And before it was common to have ladies driving trains) I didn't think it absurd for older BR vehicles. I'm pretty sure that some kettle drivers and firemen would've gone from the side of the footplate, too... (That's not a question to be answered, BTW! :shock:)
 

LE Greys

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Well I suspect the other guy in a Su-34 ;))) is there for a bit more than just flying the plane while the pilot's on the toilet. I think probably navigating and being a the weapons operator is at least a few other major roles :lol:

:oops: Perhaps I'll stick to "Fullback" in future.

And point taken. :D
 

Butts

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Smoking in the cab was permitted right up to the smoking ban. I'm not aware of any operator banning it prior to that date in 2007.

As the ban came in the year before in Scotland what would have happened on an Edinburgh to say Birmingham service - could the driver only light up once he was over the border ?
 

Dolive22

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There's a lot of difference between driving a train, and being a train driver. Driving, with someone telling you what to do (a la footplate experience course), is just pulling a lever. You can train a monkey to do that.

Don't say it, some TOC will try.

bnm, I think there are, although they don't work sitting down. This came up in the PNB thread.
 
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