DRS order 15 'Eurolight' Bo-Bo diesel-electric locos from Vossloh

[HSTEd]

Now I'm imagining Eurolights hauling Talgo tilt rakes on various secondary express routes.

Bah, my imagination always gets the better of me with optimistic thoughts.

EDIT: Would be interesting if they could apply the weight savings to a design on par with the original Cl66 and perhaps even use the weight saving to fit in an advanced medium frequency transformer rig.

 

[asylumxl]

Yes. Because DRS are a private arms length company with separated finances. Unlike the passenger operators DRS don't receive state subsidies* and private business is free to invest its profits as it likes.

*neither do any of the other Freight operators

But their parent company is the NDA, which are public.

Wikipedia article describes it as being publicly owned.

 

[Nym]

But it's still a private company, and not a franchised operation.

And who'll kick off? Bombardier don't make any locos at Derby any more so the unions will probably keep their gobs shut for once.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
QinetiQ is publicly owned, but it is still a private company...

Same with BAE Systems (Back when it was.)

 

[starrymarkb]

But their parent company is the NDA, which are public.

Wikipedia article describes it as being publicly owned.

How does it work with municipal bus cos - they are similar arms length operations. If they want new vehicles do they go to the OJEU or to ADL/Wright/Scania direct as the purchase is using the bus co's own separate finance rather then the council's money.

 

[Schnellzug]

Catepillar bought out EMD a year and a half ago. Therefore are the Caterpillar engines just evolutions of previous generation engines?

This loco isn't just a later version of the 67.
The 67 was one of a family of locos from the 90's, that later evolved into the Prima family. There are various similar looking models of loco from this line, scattered around the world.
The new model is just another similar looking one in that line.


.

No, these are four strokes, quite different from EMD's time honoured range.

Since apparently these are 3750 hp, they'll actually be more powerful than a Class 70, then.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

But their parent company is the NDA, which are public.

Wikipedia article describes it as being publicly owned.

That doesn't make any difference, it's if they provided tendered services and get subsidies that the tendering rules apply. These are for purely commercial operations.

 

[HSTEd]

The ~78.5t (with a full fuel load) weight with 3750hp gives them a rather impressive power to weight ratio compared to the original Cl67 or the HST power car for that matter.
(46.9hp/t compared to 32hp/t for the HST power car).

As for the diesel this appears to be a 1800rpm fast revving diesel engine compared to a typical EMD ~900hp slow revving one, there may be maintenance consequences of that decision.
It certainly makes it look like a viable full bi mode locomotive for British railways is around the corner though.

 

[Nym]

Comparing with the HST though, you're looking at these new ones will proberbly use synchronous induction generators and three phase induction machines, rather than the HST's DC motors, thats a good 2 or 3 ton saving there only in traction equipment.

And remember, higher revving = lower torque pulses = higher power.

Wouldn't mind seeing their designs for the traction systems though.

 

[HSTEd]

Comparing with the HST though, you're looking at these new ones will proberbly use synchronous induction generators and three phase induction machines, rather than the HST's DC motors, thats a good 2 or 3 ton saving there only in traction equipment.

And remember, higher revving = lower torque pulses = higher power.

Wouldn't mind seeing their designs for the traction systems though.

Indeed, but I like to use the HST as a baseline for diesel locomotive performance, as a bi-mode design will have to atleast be able to match it in the power-to-weight stakes.

Which would allow it to have a transformer and the relevant overhead wiring equipment, especially if it does use one of those new fangled ~1kHz power transformers with the front end IGBT cascades.

 

[Royston Vasey]

The ~78.5t (with a full fuel load) weight with 3750hp gives them a rather impressive power to weight ratio compared to the original Cl67 or the HST power car for that matter.
(46.9hp/t compared to 32hp/t for the HST power car).

As for the diesel this appears to be a 1800rpm fast revving diesel engine compared to a typical EMD ~900hp slow revving one, there may be maintenance consequences of that decision.
It certainly makes it look like a viable full bi mode locomotive for British railways is around the corner though.

Here in NJ, Bombardier are already delivering the ALP-45DP, a monstrous 125 mph almost 6000 hp electro-diesel (or 100 mph/4000 hp in diesel mode).

It's 3.3m wide and 4.4m tall, compared to a 66 at 2.6m wide and 3.9m tall so there would need to be some significant reduction in size to do for the UK before you could say that. It's about the same weight as a 66 but on a Bo-Bo; sort out the 33 T axle load (yep, as mentioned stick it on a 125 mph Co-Co) and you'd have a serious contender for the UK freight and long distance passenger market.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALP-45DP

 

[ChrisCooper]

How does it work with municipal bus cos - they are similar arms length operations. If they want new vehicles do they go to the OJEU or to ADL/Wright/Scania direct as the purchase is using the bus co's own separate finance rather then the council's money.

They just go straight to the manufacturer, just like any other bus company. NCT for example have had a good relationship with Scania and East Lancs for many years, and now Scania and Optare, and prior to that Volvo and East Lancs. The municipals have actually always tended to have more freedom with their purchases, unlike NBC which was British Leyland through and through.

 

[tbtc]

As someone in the know pointed out to me this was not put out for tender.

Is it fair for what is essentially a public company to pick as they choose while others have to tender for everything?

I guess that they are a public company when they want to be, but act like a private one when they want (in the way that Network Rail do)?

Aye, I was reading this thread from the start waiting for the Bombardier fanboys to start complaining about this branch of the British Government not being patriotic with their ordering...

 

[Schnellzug]

I guess that they are a public company when they want to be, but act like a private one when they want (in the way that Network Rail do)?

Aye, I was reading this thread from the start waiting for the Bombardier fanboys to start complaining about this branch of the British Government not being patriotic with their ordering...

In what way do they act like a public company when they want to? I'm not sure how the nuclear flask business is operated, which is an internal matter, so to speak, I suppose, but I don't think they get any Governent support or hidden subsidies or anything for their third party freight and charter business; I'm sure we'd have heard some complaints from DBS and FL if that was the case.
Besides, aren't DBS owned by the German government?

 

[Nym]

Indeed, but I like to use the HST as a baseline for diesel locomotive performance, as a bi-mode design will have to atleast be able to match it in the power-to-weight stakes.

Which would allow it to have a transformer and the relevant overhead wiring equipment, especially if it does use one of those new fangled ~1kHz power transformers with the front end IGBT cascades.

"New Fangled IGBT Cascades?"

You mean where the 25kV DC Comes in, is immediatly put through a Thyristor phase locked loop rectifer, goes to a semi-balanced DC supply, then goes through a high frequency PSC ZVS Full Bridge DC-DC Converter to step up, or possibly direct to a motor controller, (theres a fair few that take inputs kicking around the 35kV DC (25kVAC Rectified with a sodding big smoothing capacitor) mark, although there's a lot more that sit around the 33kVAC, 11kVAC and 400VAC (3phase) marks.

Although most kit will step down from this 35kV DC, wither using a Phase Shift Controlled Zero Voltage Switching Full Bridge DC-DC Convertor, that can actually (if it's well controlled) take the place of a smoothing capacitor if it's phase controlled quickly and properly enough, although some smoothing is still needed, so say that then steps it down to 3kV DC (I know some things use this voltage) we're starting to build up some nice tunes with the Thyristors and IGBTs already, not to mention the UHF Transformer in the middle of the PSC ZVS FB DC-DC, then you've got the 3phase invertors for the motor drive circuits, they always make fun noises, sually IGBT based nowerdays so you don't get the whine of the old Thyristors on networkers, but a nice shreak at higher frequencies. (The thyristors whine when the're turned off thanks to how you need to turn one off, isn't easy).

But power electronic based transformers and control systems have one very major advantage over wound devices and tap changers (used all the way up until the mid 80s!) size and weight, (and EM interference, although that comes back again later). So one can have insanely powerful traction motors, run by an insanly big cascaded IGBT motor controller, running at 3phase 11KV output and oviously, fed from (11 / 3^0.5 * 2^0.5) ~9kV DC (Not ridiculous within a locomotive) and in the world of electrodiesels that could come either from a Synchronous AC Generator (rectified, DC-DCed) or from the OHL, same deal... (Or come from DC Shoes, although it would need stepping up to 9000V from 750V...)

Glossary:

DC: Direct Current
AC: Alternating Current (1phase unless specified otherwise)
IGBT: Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor
GTO: Gate Turn Off
PSC: Phase Shift Controlled
ZVS: Zero Voltage Switching
FB: Full Bridge
UHF: Ultra High Frequency >25kHz

 

[HSTEd]

"New Fangled IGBT Cascades?"

You mean where the 25kV DC Comes in, is immediatly put through a Thyristor phase locked loop rectifer, goes to a semi-balanced DC supply, then goes through a high frequency PSC ZVS Full Bridge DC-DC Converter to step up, or possibly direct to a motor controller, (theres a fair few that take inputs kicking around the 35kV DC (25kVAC Rectified with a sodding big smoothing capacitor) mark, although there's a lot more that sit around the 33kVAC, 11kVAC and 400VAC (3phase) marks.

Although most kit will step down from this 35kV DC, wither using a Phase Shift Controlled Zero Voltage Switching Full Bridge DC-DC Convertor, that can actually (if it's well controlled) take the place of a smoothing capacitor if it's phase controlled quickly and properly enough, although some smoothing is still needed, so say that then steps it down to 3kV DC (I know some things use this voltage) we're starting to build up some nice tunes with the Thyristors and IGBTs already, not to mention the UHF Transformer in the middle of the PSC ZVS FB DC-DC, then you've got the 3phase invertors for the motor drive circuits, they always make fun noises, sually IGBT based nowerdays so you don't get the whine of the old Thyristors on networkers, but a nice shreak at higher frequencies. (The thyristors whine when the're turned off thanks to how you need to turn one off, isn't easy).

But power electronic based transformers and control systems have one very major advantage over wound devices and tap changers (used all the way up until the mid 80s!) size and weight, (and EM interference, although that comes back again later). So one can have insanely powerful traction motors, run by an insanly big cascaded IGBT motor controller, running at 3phase 11KV output and oviously, fed from (11 / 3^0.5 * 2^0.5) ~9kV DC (Not ridiculous within a locomotive) and in the world of electrodiesels that could come either from a Synchronous AC Generator (rectified, DC-DCed) or from the OHL, same deal... (Or come from DC Shoes, although it would need stepping up to 9000V from 750V...)

Glossary:

DC: Direct Current
AC: Alternating Current (1phase unless specified otherwise)
IGBT: Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor
GTO: Gate Turn Off
PSC: Phase Shift Controlled
ZVS: Zero Voltage Switching
FB: Full Bridge
UHF: Ultra High Frequency >25kHz

Unfortunately my degree is in Chemistry and electronics is just a hobby.
I've seen quite a few academic papers [a curse on Shibboleth giving me access to things that have nothing to do with my course] describing direct AC-AC conversion @25kV from line frequency to several hundred hertz or low kilohertz transformer using a cascade of 30+ IGBT modules using (as far as I can tell) a derivative of a sparse matrix converter. This would then be fed into a medium frequency transformer for the conversion to whatever voltage that you want to use prior to feeding into a slightly modified rectifier.
This includes kilowatt range lab bench scale prototypes.
Rather than the AC-DC-AC topology you seem to be talking about, but I like I said, I don't pretend to be a true expert on this.

 

[Nym]

Rail companies will tend to aire on the side of caution and use proven technology though, the furthest that has gotten so far is the 1AC - HVDC - MVDC - 3AC(Drive) I discribed above, but cascades of IGBTs will soon be 'proven' remember it took a good 10 years to get IGBTs themselves from the lab into the mainstream in the early to mid 90s, they came about in labs in the late 70s.

But the next big step is going to be away from the use of traditional semiconductors and substrates from the likes of Gallium Arsnide, Silicon, etc. onto much more exotic and better performing substrates, eg. Diamond!

I'm not an expect on this kit either, I know current implementations and roughly how they work, so I can put one in another system, rather than design one myself, my specialism is Mechanical / Electrical interactions...

 

[43021HST]

Earlier on in the thread, their was talk that these new locos may replace the DRS 20s. I thought DRS bought the 20s becuase they were ideal for nuclear traffic, low powered and mainly work in pairs.

You wouldnt need something that was stupidly powerful and potentially more heavy on the juice for a single wagon.
If you were to design something that was to replce the 20s wouldnt it follow more of an american switcher outline.

 

[Royston Vasey]

Earlier on in the thread, their was talk that these new locos may replace the DRS 20s. I thought DRS bought the 20s becuase they were ideal for nuclear traffic, low powered and mainly work in pairs.

You wouldnt need something that was stupidly powerful and potentially more heavy on the juice for a single wagon.
If you were to design something that was to replce the 20s wouldnt it follow more of an american switcher outline.

Just guessing, but... the benefits of a having a modern common fleet may outweigh the apparent overkill - Eurolights could displace 66s onto lighter/nuclear runs. I wouldn't be surprised if DRS ended up with 66s and Eurolights as the core of their fleet. Heritage locos on charters there's a market for, but continuing to put 50 year old machines on freight flows is going to come unstuck eventually.

 

[Schnellzug]

I suppose that two locos would still be required for nuclear flasks, so that'd be 7500 hp ; according to the press release, they said that these will be intended "for use in its key Intermodal and passenger train operations." In other words, effectively a new generation class 47; just as i was recommending not long ago, in fact. I'm glad to see that they finally listened to me.

 

[spudfan]

http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/ne...ders-15-vossloh-eurolight-uk-locomotives.html
Some more info and links.

 

[Schnellzug]

Unrelated to this story, but linked from the above, i noticed this story as well: http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/ne...d-to-produce-passenger-demonstrator-loco.html which looks an interesting idea. I wonder if someone might like to take that up?

 

[WatcherZero]

Continental version of the Class 66 also dropped from development I see.

 

[Schnellzug]

Yes, looks like about the end of the line for the old GM two-stroke, then, particularly since EMD have been outsold in North America by GE by a considerable ratio lately. I reckon that Caterpillar are going to be their new long-term partner, although since Caterpillar has a very loyal following I doubt they'd be able to just merge them imperceptibly.


Although Caterpillar's previous ventures into the high power rail market hasn't been altogether happy, anyone heard of the MK5000C? 5000 hp Caterpillar engine, but most were re-engined with GMs before long.

 

[Whistler40145]

IMHO, I expect they will first replace Class 20s. I am not sure what the longterm future is of the Class 37s, considering that they are refurbishing several ex-DB Schenker 37/4s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Nym]

From what I just read though, it will use a cluster of three 750hp engines, (A very popular power for rail it must be said) and from what I can tell, it's three of their bogo standard marine engines that they're using.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So we have 430-odd GM class 66s, 30 GM class 67s, 30 GE class 70s and now 15 Vosslohs.
Seems a bit like the situation when BR ordered 50 class 50s when there were already 500-odd class 47s in service.

It appears to be an all-new design for the UK.
Interesting that ABB are providing the traction package.
How come this did not find its way into the Bombardier world during all the mergers?

DRS must be very confident to carry the risks of a small, all-new fleet.
Of course it would be different if the other FOCs bought some as well.

Competition = good.
Small fleet = bad.

 

[Yew]

I suppose that two locos would still be required for nuclear flasks, so that'd be 7500 hp ; according to the press release, they said that these will be intended "for use in its key Intermodal and passenger train operations." In other words, effectively a new generation class 47; just as i was recommending not long ago, in fact. I'm glad to see that they finally listened to me.

so they are what class 67's should have been?

 

[Whistler40145]

Are Class 57s being considered for use into the future or will DRS be trying to offload them elsewhere?


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[Schnellzug]

So we have 430-odd GM class 66s, 30 GM class 67s, 30 GE class 70s and now 15 Vosslohs.
Seems a bit like the situation when BR ordered 50 class 50s when there were already 500-odd class 47s in service.

It appears to be an all-new design for the UK.
Interesting that ABB are providing the traction package.
How come this did not find its way into the Bombardier world during all the mergers?

DRS must be very confident to carry the risks of a small, all-new fleet.
Of course it would be different if the other FOCs bought some as well.

Competition = good.
Small fleet = bad.

But the 66s are no longer available, and it's not exactly an all-new design, just a version of an design available in europe modified to fit the UK loading Guage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

so they are what class 67's should have been?

They're basically an improvement on the 67s, I guess; only lighter, not quite so fast (which was never needed anyway), and with a newer engine

 

[Nym]

ABB Traction Equipment = Good: Customer support base for ABB in the UK at St Neots.

ABB != Bombardier, they only sold the rail section to Bombardier / AdTranz, not the drives section, that continued to produce industrial drive systems for many years and is now one of the world leaders in this.

Nothing is an all new design...

It uses existing CAT Generators, existing ABB drives, existing traction motors, existing bogies, the only new stuff is the box it all sits in...

 

[mbonwick]

DRS will still be keeping their extensive collection of pre-privatisation locos for use on flasks.

I believe the plan is to offload all their remaining 66s as they come up for E exams* (?) but keep the ex-Fastline examples.

*May not be exams but when the leases run out, but I'm sure I read somewhere it was exam related...