E-scooter & hoverboard ban on GTR

[najaB]

Get a burning battery on a mobile phone and you are not going to be able to throw it through a window, the heat will prevent that, if immediately you get the first bit of smoke you smash the train window and throw it ok, but no one without specialist knowledge is going to do that.

Which is precisely why airlines have containment bags - the idea being that at the first sign of smoke it goes into the bag, which will contain any fire. Try that with a 200Wh e-bike/e-scooter battery and it won't end well.

 

[thedbdiboy]

It is to do with lithium type batteries. Within TFL and several other operators there is a lot of pressure to ban all lithium type batteries as it makes no difference whether they are in ebikes/scooters or other devices they are exactly the same - so most phones and laptops would be included in this.
some trains even provide charging points for laptops/phones - these will also be disabled as they are considered so dangerous.

Such an approach would also disable the dominant ticketing technology, so that's not going to happen

 

[Meerkat]

Get a burning battery on a mobile phone and you are not going to be able to throw it through a window, the heat will prevent that, if immediately you get the first bit of smoke you smash the train window and throw it ok, but no one without specialist knowledge is going to do that.

But its small enough that you can knock it onto the floor and kick it away from people/luggage, and use something to prod it out the door if necessary.
Something like a scooter battery is going to cause a fire you cant walk by, and will be kicking out a lot of toxic smoke for a confined space.

 

[Bikeman78]

In Belgium I saw a girl plug her scooter charger into a socket on an M6 double decker carriage. There was a big flash and a bang and lots of smoke. Scared the crap out of her. I wonder what caused it?

 

[AlastairFraser]

In Belgium I saw a girl plug her scooter charger into a socket on an M6 double decker carriage. There was a big flash and a bang and lots of smoke. Scared the crap out of her. I wonder what caused it?

Likely an overcurrent incident. The charger likely tried to draw more current (amps) than the socket could handle, and bang goes your charger. That's why it says laptops and chargers only, it's 110V (lower than standard) and will have much lower amperage/current than standard too.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Likely an overcurrent incident. The charger likely tried to draw more current (amps) than the socket could handle, and bang goes your charger. That's why it says laptops and chargers only, it's 110V (lower than standard) and will have much lower amperage/current than standard too.

The charger won't go bang if you exceed the socket's capacity, the socket's breaker will just pop. UK ones are 230VAC, I'd be surprised if Belgian ones were US voltage as not all chargers support that (though most do), but similarly a 230VAC charger plugged into 110VAC shouldn't go bang (the other way round it might).

Sounds like a faulty charger.

 

[dgl]

Likely an overcurrent incident. The charger likely tried to draw more current (amps) than the socket could handle, and bang goes your charger. That's why it says laptops and chargers only, it's 110V (lower than standard) and will have much lower amperage/current than standard too.

Highly doubt that is the issue, if it can't get the current it needs it'll just trip out the supply or pull the supply down to such a low a voltage that the device will not work, the sockets will also be normal mains for the area as there still is the chance that some supplies are not multi-voltage, even some switching supplies are not multi-voltage for technical reasons.

As to what happened here, I would assume it'd down to the filtering capacitors in the PSU, unless you put in enough inrush current limiting the primary (mains) side capacitors will draw a significant current when charging up, most laptop supplies will emit a spark from the plug pins if not "smartly" plugged in.
It's also why some devices have a much larger fuse in the plug than the wattage of the appliance would deem necessary, the startup/inrush current draw on some devices can blow a 3/5A fuse easily despite the device in use drawing less than 200W, there was a story on another forum where the appliance testers had replaced the fuses in their (decent brand) monitors from 13A to 3 or 5A due to the power rating, only for them to fail quickly as they couldn't handle the startup current, the manufacturer had used a 13A fuse for a reason!

 

[najaB]

but similarly a 230VAC charger plugged into 110VAC shouldn't go bang

Depends on the design of the charger - half the voltage means twice the current. I'd expect a slow blow rather than a bang, but with some of the dodgy stuff that 'value engineering' produces, I wouldn't be surprised by anything.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's also why some devices have a much larger fuse in the plug than the wattage of the appliance would deem necessary, the startup/inrush current draw on some devices can blow a 3/5A fuse easily despite the device in use drawing less than 200W, there was a story on another forum where the appliance testers had replaced the fuses in their (decent brand) monitors from 13A to 3 or 5A due to the power rating, only for them to fail quickly as they couldn't handle the startup current, the manufacturer had used a 13A fuse for a reason!

To be fair plug fuses are designed mostly to protect the flex from the socket to the appliance, as this typically isn't rated to the 32A breaker that is the UK norm on socket circuits. Other countries tend to have 16A or 10A breakers protecting the socket radials and so don't need or have them. They exist solely because we have 32A circuits with appliances with 13A (or below) flexes connected to them in the UK.

They do also offer the added convenience that if an appliance shorts the plug fuse blows rather than the whole socket circuit, but that's a bit by the by (and replacing a plug fuse is more faff than flipping a breaker back on these days, though this wasn't always so when you used to have to replace a wired fuse).

 

[najaB]

Other countries tend to have 16A or 10A breakers protecting the socket radials and so don't need or have them. They exist solely because we have 32A circuits with appliances with 13A (or below) flexes connected to them in the UK.

But it's worth keeping in mind that the breaker exists to protect the wiring in the wall, rather than the appliance (or the user!), so even if the radial had a 10A fuse, a 5A or 3A plug fuse would still be useful in a low-power device.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But it's worth keeping in mind that the breaker exists to protect the wiring in the wall, rather than the appliance (or the user!), so even if the radial had a 10A fuse, a 5A or 3A plug fuse would still be useful in a low-power device.

If an appliance can't cope with the potential current from a 10 or 16A domestic socket circuit (depending what type of plug it's supplied with; there are two sizes of Europlug/Schaku plug) then it'll have an internal fuse. Plug fuses are a UK addition solely designed to protect the flex and are not used in any other country because other countries don't use 32A socket rings.

 

[najaB]

Plug fuses are a UK addition solely designed to protect the flex and are not used in any other country because other countries don't use 32A socket rings.

Yes, ring circuits are a UK thing, but I assure you that it's not uncommon to have 30A circuit breakers feeding sockets in US households as the standard sockets are rated at 15A.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, ring circuits are a UK thing, but I assure you that it's not uncommon to have 30A circuit breakers feeding sockets in US households as the standard sockets are rated at 15A.

In that case one of two things will be the case - one, that the flex and appliance is designed for 30A, or two, that it's dangerous and flex fires will be more common

No country outside the UK uses plug fuses, and the express purpose of them is to protect the flex against a short. As I said, appliances requiring a fuse have an internal one, they don't rely on the correct plug fuse being fitted or not fitted, though with cheap Chinese rubbish "your mileage may vary".

 

[najaB]

In that case one of two things will be the case - one, that the flex and appliance is designed for 30A, or two, that it's dangerous and flex fires will be more common

It's definitely the latter. The wiring in the wall is typically 12AWG or even 10AWG and it's not uncommon to see 14AWG or even 16AWG in the appliance flex. But that's the American attitude to safety for you. I mean, they only really started using shuttered sockets in the last 20 years or so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's definitely the latter. The wiring in the wall is typically 12AWG or even 10AWG and it's not uncommon to see 14AWG or even 16AWG in the appliance flex. But that's the American attitude to safety for you.

To be fair, while there are flaws (e.g. a break in a 32A ring can result in current over the rating for the fixed wiring, and there's no easy way to observe such a break, so it'd be better if we moved to 20A radials, not to mention standing on an upturned plug, plus that a double "13A" socket isn't rated to 26A and has nothing protecting that fact) UK electrics are probably the safest in the world, so it's not surprising we can see flaws elsewhere.

 

[Wolfie]

The problem may be the possibility of the lithium batteries catching fire in an enclosed space.

Exactly, hence the ban on e-scooters and e-unicyles on TfL since 2021.

 

[AlastairFraser]

The charger won't go bang if you exceed the socket's capacity, the socket's breaker will just pop. UK ones are 230VAC, I'd be surprised if Belgian ones were US voltage as not all chargers support that (though most do), but similarly a 230VAC charger plugged into 110VAC shouldn't go bang (the other way round it might).

Sounds like a faulty charger.

I wouldn't think the socket would have a particularly high current breaker, since they are designed for laptops only.
The charger was probably faulty as well, but it likely tried to draw more current than was possible either way.

Highly doubt that is the issue, if it can't get the current it needs it'll just trip out the supply or pull the supply down to such a low a voltage that the device will not work, the sockets will also be normal mains for the area as there still is the chance that some supplies are not multi-voltage, even some switching supplies are not multi-voltage for technical reasons.

As to what happened here, I would assume it'd down to the filtering capacitors in the PSU, unless you put in enough inrush current limiting the primary (mains) side capacitors will draw a significant current when charging up, most laptop supplies will emit a spark from the plug pins if not "smartly" plugged in.
It's also why some devices have a much larger fuse in the plug than the wattage of the appliance would deem necessary, the startup/inrush current draw on some devices can blow a 3/5A fuse easily despite the device in use drawing less than 200W, there was a story on another forum where the appliance testers had replaced the fuses in their (decent brand) monitors from 13A to 3 or 5A due to the power rating, only for them to fail quickly as they couldn't handle the startup current, the manufacturer had used a 13A fuse for a reason!

I'll defer to you here, clearly more experienced in electronics than me! But I think we can both agree a lot of imported electronics are not designed with properly functioning PSU or safe electronic designs, to be frank.

 

[najaB]

But I think we can both agree a lot of imported electronics are not designed...

Could have stopped there, really. They aren't so much designed as thrown together with whatever components they had to hand.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Could have stopped there, really. They aren't so much designed as thrown together with whatever components they had to hand.

Scrambling through the spare parts bin is a form of design I suppose

 

[jon0844]

I know it's VERY niche because of the cost and expertise needed, but there is an emerging market where old cars are being converted into EVs. I am sure people have seen this stuff on YouTube, and while I am sure most projects are all well thought out and engineered, you might get some dodgy conversions in the future that really won't go well given the size of an EV battery. Imagine a crash damaged vehicle where the battery has taken some damage, but someone attempts to repair the BMS, or some damaged cells, and then solders a few new batteries together in series or whatever.

We can be sure the oil industry lobbyists will be sure to find every example to justify the argument that we need to keep using petrol and diesel for safety reasons!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know it's VERY niche because of the cost and expertise needed, but there is an emerging market where old cars are being converted into EVs. I am sure people have seen this stuff on YouTube, and while I am sure most projects are all well thought out and engineered, you might get some dodgy conversions in the future that really won't go well given the size of an EV battery. Imagine a crash damaged vehicle where the battery has taken some damage, but someone attempts to repair the BMS, or some damaged cells, and then solders a few new batteries together in series or whatever.

We can be sure the oil industry lobbyists will be sure to find every example to justify the argument that we need to keep using petrol and diesel for safety reasons!

It's a potential issue for underground car parks at apartment blocks if these aren't well designed to be fire safe. Other than that cars are mostly in places open to the air, so while it might damage other cars it likely won't do much else. In any case cars are different from bikes/scooters because traditional ones contain a load of highly flammable liquid and catch fire sometimes anyway, whereas bikes and scooters don't.

 

[jon0844]

A lot of flats built near me had basement car parks, so I wonder if they would allow underground charging or restrict this to outdoors? Yes the risk will always be low, but not zero.

I charge my e-bike in my living room but it has always finished charging before anyone goes to sleep. I am considering an outdoor waterproof, but ventilated, shed to keep it in, so it can charge outside. I know the risk is tiny, but I would still like to be that extra bit safe because a house fire is never going to be nice, even if nobody is hurt.

 

[ThameslinkUser]

Posters are starting to appear, as seen today at Aldrington.

 

[jon0844]

Great Northern have started putting them up too (and I assume Thameslink also).

Meanwhile, Southeastern has Tweeted this:

From Thursday 1 June we are asking customers not to bring e-scooters onto our network

Batteries used on some e-scooters can be unsafe and in line with many other train operators we are restricting their use

Please visit our website for more details
bit.ly/3BmNF1b

Odd wording saying 'we are asking' as that sort of implies that people can just say 'no thanks' and go ahead anyway, which I suspect is exactly what's going to happen anyway.

 

[island]

Great Northern have started putting them up too (and I assume Thameslink also).

Meanwhile, Southeastern has Tweeted this:



Odd wording saying 'we are asking' as that sort of implies that people can just say 'no thanks' and go ahead anyway, which I suspect is exactly what's going to happen anyway.

But the fact they have asked will now make it a breach of railway byelaw 2 to bring such a device onto their trains.

In practice of course nothing will happen.

 

[Sultan]

But the fact they have asked will now make it a breach of railway byelaw 2 to bring such a device onto their trains.

In practice of course nothing will happen.

Does that mean penalty fares? Or is turfing someone off at the next stop a sufficient deterrence? The on-line guidance found at https://www.southernrailway.com/travel-information/on-board/bringing-a-bike doesn't specifically state the consequence of being on board with one. Maybe it should.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Does that mean penalty fares? Or is turfing someone off at the next stop a sufficient deterrence? The on-line guidance found at https://www.southernrailway.com/travel-information/on-board/bringing-a-bike doesn't specifically state the consequence of being on board with one. Maybe it should.

Penalty fares are not applicable to this kind of situation. They have the option of prosecution under Byelaw 2 as noted, threatening that to extort a settlement or just chucking you off. I suspect it'll mostly be the latter, just like when a bicycle is brought onto a train when they're not allowed - it only seems to be TfL that has any interest in prosecuting for that.

 

[Sultan]

Penalty fares are not applicable to this kind of situation. They have the option of prosecution under Byelaw 2 as noted, threatening that to extort a settlement or just chucking you off. I suspect it'll mostly be the latter, just like when a bicycle is brought onto a train when they're not allowed - it only seems to be TfL that has any interest in prosecuting for that.

Thanks for clarifying (I don't have one myself and have no intention of getting one).

 

[CFRAIL]

I wouldn't be surprised to see some enforcement staff deal with them under the byelaw offences.

 

[jon0844]

I expect a few token cases to send a message, perhaps publicised online or some local paper, but other than that it will likely only work if people willingly comply.

I am not sure you're going to see all owners pushing through gates, but when the gates are open or stations are unstaffed, especially late at night, I doubt anything is going to change.