Early Departure Complaint

[vamparmand]

Is there any way I can prove that a train left a station earlier than the advertised time? If I ask network rail to look at cctv of the platform, is there any chance they would confirm my complaint. This is particularly as I have been charged an additional £50 for getting the following train from the station! Any suggestions would be grateful.

 

[yorkie]

I'm not sure Network Rail would entertain such a request, but the usefulness may be limited if there isn't a clear view of an accurate clock in the shot, as CCTV systems do not always show the time accurately.

Historical train times can be found on Raildar.co.uk

What are the full details? Without knowing the origin & destination of the ticket, the time of travel, price paid and price charged, and any other relevant details it's difficult to advise.

You can escalate your complaint to Transport Focus by completing this online form: http://www.transportfocus.org.uk/contact/complaint

 

[najaB]

Any suggestions would be grateful.

How many minutes early did the train depart? What was the TOC's response to your complaint when you contacted them

 

[A-driver]

How early are you claiming the train departed? It's unlikely a TOC will entertain your complaint if you are arguing under a minute. Most state doors are locked 30secs before time and some up to 2 mins. And by whose clock do you claim it left early? CCTV won't prove anything live running info and a P2 playback won't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

May be worth a look on realtimetrains.co.uk.

 

[Starmill]

I would not try to hold up Neil's suggestion as reliable evidence that the train left early!

If you think the doors were closed more than 60 seconds before the departure time I would argue you have a case. If more than 120 seconds you definitely have one. You may be able to find almost no evidence to support it though. However I think the onus is on the train company to ensure that the train does not run early. What was the £50 for and have you set out in a letter or email to the train company what happened? If not it might be a good idea to simply do so and they may opt to resolve the matter without quibble.

 

[185]

Clocked TPE going 9min early three weeks ago leaving airport passengers stuck. They initially blamed the guard then it transpired it was an error in the (stp) diagramming.

 

[47271]

You definitely need to exhaust your complaint with the TOC before escalating with Transport Focus or trying to get hold of further evidence.

I say this because the only early running complaint I've ever made - to Scotrail - led to an apology and I'm pretty certain compensation for a missed connection and consequent costs, although it was quite a few years ago now so I'm a bit hazy on that side of it. Anyway, they admitted it without me having to provide evidence.

It might have helped corroborate my case that half a dozen other upset passengers and myself were quite politely ranting and raving immediately afterwards at the blameless man in the station's ticket office. He handed out quite a few complaint forms...

 

[Shempz]

I've seen this happen before at Ashurst station. At the time I was on the London bound platform, and noticed that the downtrain to Uckfield left a full 2 mins early. I'd have been mighty peeved if I missed the train because of that, and had to wait another hour for the next train!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure why RTT would be inaccurate of an early departure, because it's coming from the same place the TOCs would get that information.

I did complain about a sustained 2 minutes early running on a Brum local service a while ago and LM did acknowledge that it had indeed run early, though I don't know what if anything was done about it.

 

[Merseysider]

I'm not sure why RTT would be inaccurate of an early departure, because it's coming from the same place the TOCs would get that information.

I did complain about a sustained 2 minutes early running on a Brum local service a while ago and LM did acknowledge that it had indeed run early, though I don't know what if anything was done about it.

It's normally accurate but it has limitations and I wouldn't rely on it as the only source of evidence. For example, RTT frequently and incorrectly thinks the LIV->WGN trains fail to call at Garswood.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You definitely need to exhaust your complaint with the TOC before escalating with Transport Focus or trying to get hold of further evidence.

I say this because the only early running complaint I've ever made - to Scotrail - led to an apology and I'm pretty certain compensation for a missed connection and consequent costs, although it was quite a few years ago now so I'm a bit hazy on that side of it. Anyway, they admitted it without me having to provide evidence.

Yeah, that was my experience of Chiltern Railways when the (hourly) London train left a full 12 minutes early from Aylesbury once. Got a full refund.

 

[Haywain]

If this is about a train that left a few seconds early from a major terminal I would suggest that a complaint has no chance of succeeding. Most long distance trains have procedures to close doors starting one minute before departure, and can depart when that procedure has been completed.

 

[Llanigraham]

What "device" did you use to ascertain this train left early?
How do you know it was correct?
Even station clocks aren't always correct.

 

[crehld]

What "device" did you use to ascertain this train left early?
How do you know it was correct?
Even station clocks aren't always correct.

Genuine question: if the railway industry cannot guarantee the accuracy of its own clocks, by precisely what device should passengers measure the timeliness of trains? For example, as I cannot depend on the station clock, how should I be able to tell when the 20:10 Euston to Crewe is actually due to depart? I imagine using my own watch creates all sorts of problems to do with synchronisity!

 

[hounddog]

You might just as well have written

What "device" did the driver use to ascertain this train left on time?
How did he know it was correct?

Even station clocks aren't always correct.

 

[Clip]

Genuine question: if the railway industry cannot guarantee the accuracy of its own clocks, by precisely what device should passengers measure the timeliness of trains? For example, as I cannot depend on the station clock, how should I be able to tell when the 20:10 Euston to Crewe is actually due to depart? I imagine using my own watch creates all sorts of problems to do with synchronisity!

Everything can go wrong once in a while you know - the world is not perfect. And clocks at stations get the time sent to them too so if that fails then they fail im afraid.

The clocks on 4/5 at the cross were notorious for going out of sync.

 

[Starmill]

If a train left early because of an incorrect clock, fair enough, maybe something can be done about the clocks so it happens less in future, but I would still expect the passenger to be compensated.

 

[crehld]

Everything can go wrong once in a while you know - the world is not perfect. And clocks at stations get the time sent to them too so if that fails then they fail im afraid.

The clocks on 4/5 at the cross were notorious for going out of sync.

You've clearly misunderstood my question.

If a passenger wants to know if their train is early/on time/late, or even wants to simply know the time to ensure they get to the train before departure, and if station clocks and other such devices cannot be relied upon, what should the passenger use?

 

[Haywain]

Genuine question: if the railway industry cannot guarantee the accuracy of its own clocks, by precisely what device should passengers measure the timeliness of trains? For example, as I cannot depend on the station clock, how should I be able to tell when the 20:10 Euston to Crewe is actually due to depart? I imagine using my own watch creates all sorts of problems to do with synchronisity!

The industry cannot absolutely guarantee every single clock is always accurate. That should not be taken to mean that clocks cannot be generally relied upon.

 

[Wales_Commuter]

would be interested to know the response from the train company on this, happened to me before, left at least 3 minutes early

 

[tony6499]

It may not have been a clock, could have been a simple STP error on either the guard or drivers diagram not agreeing with what was shown on the departure board.

The complaint to the TOC should ascertain if this was the case but as the OP is bereft of details it is hard to go beyond speculation.

 

[Clip]

The industry cannot absolutely guarantee every single clock is always accurate. That should not be taken to mean that clocks cannot be generally relied upon.

No! we simply must as a business make sure that everything and everyone works perfectly all the time!!

 

[Wolfie]

No! we simply must as a business make sure that everything and everyone works perfectly all the time!!

That should be the aspiration, albeit unlikely to be ever achieved

 

[Llanigraham]

You've clearly misunderstood my question.

If a passenger wants to know if their train is early/on time/late, or even wants to simply know the time to ensure they get to the train before departure, and if station clocks and other such devices cannot be relied upon, what should the passenger use?

Isn't the advice given to arrive at the station well in advance of when the train is due, and not a minute or two before? If that is done, where is the problem?

Thankfully the clock in my Box is radio controlled so is deemed accurate and I set my watch by it each week.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't the advice given to arrive at the station well in advance of when the train is due, and not a minute or two before? If that is done, where is the problem?

None, but sometimes people get delayed. With a walk-up ticket this just means a bit of inconvenience, but when one has an Advance ticket I can rather understand the issue, unless the railway stipulates a minimum time to be on the platform before.

Actually, I think this issue could well be best solved by recognising that trains are occasionally a minute or two early because watches and clocks aren't perfect, and simply clearly advertising that to guarantee travel you must be on the platform 5 minutes[1] before the scheduled departure time. Trains running earlier than that are near enough unheard of.

[1] That might knacker connections, but equally I find that the almost universal 5 minutes official connection time is too tight, and most stations justify 10 unless it's a same-platform or cross-platform connection.

 

[crehld]

The industry cannot absolutely guarantee every single clock is always accurate. That should not be taken to mean that clocks cannot be generally relied upon.

That seems fair enough, but the point was made that they shouldn't be relied upon so I was simply trying to figure out what one could rely upon. Had realised it was such a controversial question

No! we simply must as a business make sure that everything and everyone works perfectly all the time!!

Seems like a sensible aspiration of any modern organization to me (even if it can't be pulled off all the time).

Isn't the advice given to arrive at the station well in advance of when the train is due, and not a minute or two before? If that is done, where is the problem?

No problem at all actually. I was simply trying to discover which time to go by.

Thankfully the clock in my Box is radio controlled so is deemed accurate and I set my watch by it each week.

Sounds like a nifty bit of kit. I had (wrongly) assumed that in our modern world with technology that most station clocks would be radio controlled or accurately synchronised. Radio clocks are hardly new!

None, but sometimes people get delayed. With a walk-up ticket this just means a bit of inconvenience, but when one has an Advance ticket I can rather understand the issue, unless the railway stipulates a minimum time to be on the platform before.

Again, no problem with this. Many terminals already have such notices in places for when doors will be closed, so in a way it's already done.

Actually, I think this issue could well be best solved by recognising that trains are occasionally a minute or two early because watches and clocks aren't perfect, and simply clearly advertising that to guarantee travel you must be on the platform 5 minutes[1] before the scheduled departure time. Trains running earlier than that are near enough unheard of.

That would be 5 minutes by whose watch / clock?

[1] That might knacker connections, but equally I find that the almost universal 5 minutes official connection time is too tight, and most stations justify 10 unless it's a same-platform or cross-platform connection.

I'm probably misunderstanding your point here, but official connection times should reflect the minimum time to transfer from one train to another, not to pad out journeys because the reliability of the service can't be guarenteed.

 

[reb0118]

Thankfully the clock in my Box is radio controlled so is deemed accurate....

So was my previous TOC watch. However, today it decided to reset itself to 12:00 midnight on 01/01/01 and wouldn't reset!

I told my driver I would despatch with regard to the station monitors but a fair few of those were out too!

The "spare" watch was still on BST and was an additional 5 mins out anyway. Pathetic!

Hopefully my new watch will synchronise at 05:00 this morning but at least I'll have my trusty Rotary to fall back on.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Sounds like a nifty bit of kit. I had (wrongly) assumed that in our modern world with technology that most station clocks would be radio controlled or accurately synchronised. Radio clocks are hardly new!

To be fair I think most station clocks are radio controlled - the (rather antiquated/a model no longer in use) one in my avatar is. I think railway clocks have rather a greater propensity to go wrong (whether that be drifting, or failing to sync at all) than others though

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Does the clock display on a TMS get synchronized at all? Is there a "talking clock" GSM-R channel that driver's can use to get the accurate current time?