East Croydon chaotic and dangerous

[Deepgreen]

As soon as anyone who understands game theory engages their brain...

It will probably reduce some running accidents but introduce new ones instead, it may take a wet winter before there are reliable stats.

The accident rate may of course be reduced just by having the new footbridge so I'm not sure there will ever be a definitive set of stats unless they take the covering off.

I imagine the new footbridge, with its skating rink floor in any sort of wet conditions, will only contribute to accidents!
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But if the glass was clear then wouldn't people run and it was the intention to avoid that.

Personally if changing trains there I tend to use the other footbridge. If my train is late in and I need to use another platform island then I'll run in order to make my connection.

See my post (no. 84). People will run if they know their train is in, but more people will run if they don't know because they can't see whether it is or not.

 

[mirodo]

However, it is having the opposite effect - as people can no longer see if their train is in, they run just in case. Ugly and ineffective - excellent!

From my own observation, passing through the station a couple of mornings a week, people are still running down the ramps despite the new frosted glass.

One of the problems, I think, is people seeing from the departure boards in the ticket hall that their train is due in 1 or 2 minutes, and subsequently pegging it down the ramp in order to catch it. I wonder if it might cut down on running if the trains disappeared from the departure boards after the point at which it was no longer possible to make it from ticket hall to platform without running?

 

[NSEFAN]

One of the problems, I think, is people seeing from the departure boards in the ticket hall that their train is due in 1 or 2 minutes, and subsequently pegging it down the ramp in order to catch it. I wonder if it might cut down on running if the trains disappeared from the departure boards after the point at which it was no longer possible to make it from ticket hall to platform without running?

That sounds like a good idea. Isn't such a thing already done at the London terminal stations?

 

[hwl]

That sounds like a good idea. Isn't such a thing already done at the London terminal stations?

People will just use their watch and run after it has gone from the boards as it can be easy to guess which one it is especially if it always uses the same platform.

 

[infobleep]

From my own observation, passing through the station a couple of mornings a week, people are still running down the ramps despite the new frosted glass.

One of the problems, I think, is people seeing from the departure boards in the ticket hall that their train is due in 1 or 2 minutes, and subsequently pegging it down the ramp in order to catch it. I wonder if it might cut down on running if the trains disappeared from the departure boards after the point at which it was no longer possible to make it from ticket hall to platform without running?

The problem with this is trains running late. The system doesn't know at what point it is going to leave, as it's no longer leaving at the time it should have done. Hence I believe the trains are only cleared from the board after they have left. With so many trains delayed, even slightly, during peak rush hour, it means they can't clear the screens.

Of course announcing trains whilst the doors are closing or even after the doors have closed will no doubt cause people to needlessly run.

If a system could be designed to cope with trains being delayed or held outside stations and departure announcements were not made as the doors were closing or the train was leaving, it might work. I'm not saying those are easy things to implement.
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This evening Clapham Junction gave me the perfect example. As I got to the subway stairs for platforms 13 and 14, the 17.27 to Three Bridges and Reigate was still showing as 17.27, despite it being 17.29. It then changed to 17.29 and I heard the train depart the station as it did so.

About 10-15 seconds after the train had left it cleared from the platform board.

Then the 17.30 East Grinstead service was shown as leave at 17.33. It arrived at 17.32 and eventually left at 17.34 or 35. Again the departure board was cleared after it left. I can't remember if it still said 17.33 on the board when it left.

The Ore service was now displayed as leaving 17.37. It eventually left 17.38 and I can't remember if it got updated to that time but based on some years if travelling I knew it wouldn't leave at 17.37 myself.

Now I suspect at 17.29 the summery departure board wasn't showing the 17.33 as coming in at 17.37, given the subway departure board was showing the 17.27 as on time.

I think this highlights why it's so difficult to take trains off departure boards before they leave.

 

[louis97]

The problem with this is trains running late. The system doesn't know at what point it is going to leave, as it's no longer leaving at the time it should have done. Hence I believe the trains are only cleared from the board after they have left. With so many trains delayed, even slightly, during peak rush hour, it means they can't clear the screens.

Of course announcing trains whilst the doors are closing or even after the doors have closed will no doubt cause people to needlessly run.

If a system could be designed to cope with trains being delayed or held outside stations and departure announcements were not made as the doors were closing or the train was leaving, it might work. I'm not saying those are easy things to implement.
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This evening Clapham Junction gave me the perfect example. As I got to the subway stairs for platforms 13 and 14, the 17.27 to Three Bridges and Reigate was still showing as 17.27, despite it being 17.29. It then changed to 17.29 and I heard the train depart the station as it did so.

About 10-15 seconds after the train had left it cleared from the platform board.

Then the 17.30 East Grinstead service was shown as leave at 17.33. It arrived at 17.32 and eventually left at 17.34 or 35. Again the departure board was cleared after it left. I can't remember if it still said 17.33 on the board when it left.

The Ore service was now displayed as leaving 17.37. It eventually left 17.38 and I can't remember if it got updated to that time but based on some years if travelling I knew it wouldn't leave at 17.37 myself.

Now I suspect at 17.29 the summery departure board wasn't showing the 17.33 as coming in at 17.37, given the subway departure board was showing the 17.27 as on time.

I think this highlights why it's so difficult to take trains off departure boards before they leave.

Do what happens at Plymouth (and likely elsewhere in FGW area) where trains drop off the concourse boards 1 minute before booked departure, never causes any issues. It still remains on the summary of departures, therefore passengers looking for a specific trains can still find it - but this avoids people seeing a train calling at where they are going and may be sat on the platforms and running for it. This would work even better at East Croydon because of the high frequency of services.

 

[infobleep]

Do what happens at Plymouth (and likely elsewhere in FGW area) where trains drop off the concourse boards 1 minute before booked departure, never causes any issues. It still remains on the summary of departures, therefore passengers looking for a specific trains can still find it - but this avoids people seeing a train calling at where they are going and may be sat on the platforms and running for it. This would work even better at East Croydon because of the high frequency of services.

Does it clear off the board even if the trains are late?

 

[Tio Terry]

The problem with this is trains running late. The system doesn't know at what point it is going to leave, as it's no longer leaving at the time it should have done. Hence I believe the trains are only cleared from the board after they have left. With so many trains delayed, even slightly, during peak rush hour, it means they can't clear the screens.

Of course announcing trains whilst the doors are closing or even after the doors have closed will no doubt cause people to needlessly run.

If a system could be designed to cope with trains being delayed or held outside stations and departure announcements were not made as the doors were closing or the train was leaving, it might work. I'm not saying those are easy things to implement.
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This evening Clapham Junction gave me the perfect example. As I got to the subway stairs for platforms 13 and 14, the 17.27 to Three Bridges and Reigate was still showing as 17.27, despite it being 17.29. It then changed to 17.29 and I heard the train depart the station as it did so.

About 10-15 seconds after the train had left it cleared from the platform board.

Then the 17.30 East Grinstead service was shown as leave at 17.33. It arrived at 17.32 and eventually left at 17.34 or 35. Again the departure board was cleared after it left. I can't remember if it still said 17.33 on the board when it left.

The Ore service was now displayed as leaving 17.37. It eventually left 17.38 and I can't remember if it got updated to that time but based on some years if travelling I knew it wouldn't leave at 17.37 myself.

Now I suspect at 17.29 the summery departure board wasn't showing the 17.33 as coming in at 17.37, given the subway departure board was showing the 17.27 as on time.

I think this highlights why it's so difficult to take trains off departure boards before they leave.

I think you will find that the Customer Information System gets it's information from the Train Describer, this in turn gets it's information from track circuit occupation and clears. So when a train exits the platform berth the TD updates, it then looks at the description in the platform approach berth, compares it with the timetable, and posts the information to the displays. I'm not sure there is a workable alternative to this system of working.

 

[Stats]

You would need to program it so that the concourse displays removed the service, but still allowed it to show on the platform CIS. The platform CIS used to remove it and show "Stand Clear. Train ready to leave" when the TRTS signal was given. Do they still do that?

 

[infobleep]

The problem with this is trains running late. The system doesn't know at what point it is going to leave, as it's no longer leaving at the time it should have done. Hence I believe the trains are only cleared from the board after they have left. With so many trains delayed, even slightly, during peak rush hour, it means they can't clear the screens.

Of course announcing trains whilst the doors are closing or even after the doors have closed will no doubt cause people to needlessly run.

If a system could be designed to cope with trains being delayed or held outside stations and departure announcements were not made as the doors were closing or the train was leaving, it might work. I'm not saying those are easy things to implement.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This evening Clapham Junction gave me the perfect example. As I got to the subway stairs for platforms 13 and 14, the 17.27 to Three Bridges and Reigate was still showing as 17.27, despite it being 17.29. It then changed to 17.29 and I heard the train depart the station as it did so.

About 10-15 seconds after the train had left it cleared from the platform board.

Then the 17.30 East Grinstead service was shown as leave at 17.33. It arrived at 17.32 and eventually left at 17.34 or 35. Again the departure board was cleared after it left. I can't remember if it still said 17.33 on the board when it left.

The Ore service was now displayed as leaving 17.37. It eventually left 17.38 and I can't remember if it got updated to that time but based on some years if travelling I knew it wouldn't leave at 17.37 myself.

Now I suspect at 17.29 the summery departure board wasn't showing the 17.33 as coming in at 17.37, given the subway departure board was showing the 17.27 as on time.

I think this highlights why it's so difficult to take trains off departure boards before they leave.

When I alighted at Haywards Heath they started announcing the Ore train just before the platform staff man blew his whistle. The doors then closed and they continued to announce the train as it left the station.

I can see how this would make someone run.

 

[louis97]

Does it clear off the board even if the trains are late?

Yep, leaving it just on the departure summary board.
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I think you will find that the Customer Information System gets it's information from the Train Describer, this in turn gets it's information from track circuit occupation and clears. So when a train exits the platform berth the TD updates, it then looks at the description in the platform approach berth, compares it with the timetable, and posts the information to the displays. I'm not sure there is a workable alternative to this system of working.

It gets the locations of the trains from the Train Describer. The information on where the train is going and the platform it is booked to use is all within the CIS system already. The information the CIS gets from the Train Describer outside the station is very limited and unless the system has a timetable to compare the information to, just because a train is in the describer two berths from the station does not mean the CIS will know when it will arrive as it does not know how long it takes the train to travel through those berths. This is the reason why the CIS adds minutes, it initially starts showing how late the train was last reported (minus any time it thinks it will make up), then when it fails to arrive at that time, it adds on minutes until it arrives or does not move for so long that the CIS displays 'Delayed'.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

You would need to program it so that the concourse displays removed the service, but still allowed it to show on the platform CIS. The platform CIS used to remove it and show "Stand Clear. Train ready to leave" when the TRTS signal was given. Do they still do that?

They do at East Croydon, yes - and I think at most other southern stations as well.

 

[infobleep]

I think you will find that the Customer Information System gets it's information from the Train Describer, this in turn gets it's information from track circuit occupation and clears. So when a train exits the platform berth the TD updates, it then looks at the description in the platform approach berth, compares it with the timetable, and posts the information to the displays. I'm not sure there is a workable alternative to this system of working.

There may not be, which is why I'm not sure if it would be workable getting trains off the boards in advance.

I do think more could be done around the automated announcements. Perhaps they need to be started earlier.
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Yep, leaving it just on the departure summary board.
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It gets the locations of the trains from the Train Describer. The information on where the train is going and the platform it is booked to use is all within the CIS system already. The information the CIS gets from the Train Describer outside the station is very limited and unless the system has a timetable to compare the information to, just because a train is in the describer two berths from the station does not mean the CIS will know when it will arrive as it does not know how long it takes the train to travel through those berths. This is the reason why the CIS adds minutes, it initially starts showing how late the train was last reported (minus any time it thinks it will make up), then when it fails to arrive at that time, it adds on minutes until it arrives or does not move for so long that the CIS displays 'Delayed'.

Thanks for explaining that.

I was told that all the stations' screens covered from a central location at Brighton station automatically said delayed after 6 minutes. I can't remember how many stations Brighton managed. That was some years ago so it may have changed.

If a train is delayed and stops at all its booked stations I find the online departure boards think it will make up time when in reality it probably won't unless there are waiting gaps at the stations.

However if stops get cancelled to make up time, then the time the online departure boards think it will take is to long as it doesn't take into account the fact it can now run faster due to it stopping at less stations.

 

[jon0844]

I wonder how long it'll be before the HSE start to take an interest in this?

Surely there are people that know a lot about human behaviour and would have been able to consider if people not being able to see would slow down, or actually speed up/run in order to get into a position to be able to see?
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That sounds like a good idea. Isn't such a thing already done at the London terminal stations?

I actually noticed this for the first time at King's Cross just recently, where a train disappeared one minute before departure on the display by the platform (10 FWIW). I am not sure if it remained on the concourse displays, but assume not. Ironically, the train was then delayed about five minutes to let in another service (that I was waiting for) on the next platform so it could have still let people board if they knew it was there.

It seems to happen at tube stations though, although I'm pretty sure I've seen services showing as 1 or 2 minutes, which is probably going to encourage some people to run. I expect fewer people do so when they can see another one just a minute or two behind, but maybe at quieter times where the next one shows as 7 or 10 minutes, people will go for it?

 

[infobleep]

Surely there are people that know a lot about human behaviour and would have been able to consider if people not being able to see would slow down, or actually speed up/run in order to get into a position to be able to see?
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I actually noticed this for the first time at King's Cross just recently, where a train disappeared one minute before departure on the display by the platform (10 FWIW). I am not sure if it remained on the concourse displays, but assume not. Ironically, the train was then delayed about five minutes to let in another service (that I was waiting for) on the next platform so it could have still let people board if they knew it was there.

It seems to happen at tube stations though, although I'm pretty sure I've seen services showing as 1 or 2 minutes, which is probably going to encourage some people to run. I expect fewer people do so when they can see another one just a minute or two behind, but maybe at quieter times where the next one shows as 7 or 10 minutes, people will go for it?

I k ow I'd run if the next service was 7-8 minutes later. However sometimes there is another tube train. Just that the system hasn't shown it.

The reason for running will be due to having to make a connection. I might be at a concert and the first siding times make it right to catch the last train home out of London. That's a choice I make for not living in London.

Incidentally the 8.08 East Croydon to Victoira service was still shown as on time on the station platform at almost 2 minutes after it should have left.

I guess the answer is a choice of either remove trains from the board before they are due to depart, regardless of their delay or keep the status quo.

Obviously they would remain on the platform screens.

 

[Aictos]

They do at East Croydon, yes - and I think at most other southern stations as well.

All GTR Southern stations have this facility, former FCC managed stations however now GTR Thameslink/GTR Great Northern do not have this facility as they both use different CIS systems.

This is despite calls for it to be introduced because I think in the peaks especially it would help reduce people deliberately injuring themselves by boarding as the doors are closing.

It wouldn't stop it all together but it will be a good start.

 

[GodAtum]

I find that if a 12 car train starts to arrive on the platform, you can make it down the ramp before the trains tops.

 

[James Wake]

I agree, people still run down the ramps (sometimes I have to), its annoying not to be able to see when the hazard lights have gone out, so then I can stop running as I have missed the train. East Croydon's work is taking ages, and London Bridge seems to be doing well. The refurbished platforms there are great and bright and airy. The footbridge is useful now it goes out onto Dingwall Road, and it is now the shortest walking route to West Croydon to exit from that side of the station.

 

[infobleep]

I agree, people still run down the ramps (sometimes I have to), its annoying not to be able to see when the hazard lights have gone out, so then I can stop running as I have missed the train. East Croydon's work is taking ages, and London Bridge seems to be doing well. The refurbished platforms there are great and bright and airy. The footbridge is useful now it goes out onto Dingwall Road, and it is now the shortest walking route to West Croydon to exit from that side of the station.

Dies that mean they can reduce the official walking time between East Croydon and West Croydon, if their indeed is a walking time between the two.

 

[jon0844]

Obviously they would remain on the platform screens.

You say that, but the train in question (1722 I think it was) came off the display next to platform 10 one minute before. Maybe it's not set up in such a way at King's Cross that it can be removed from the concourse without being removed elsewhere too?

I happened to be looking just at the right time, as I was waiting to see if the train I wanted was coming in to platform 11, which was the cause of the delay to its departure.

 

[Antman]

Dies that mean they can reduce the official walking time between East Croydon and West Croydon, if their indeed is a walking time between the two.

Walking time is generally quicker than the tram, depending how fast somebody walks of course

 

[infobleep]

Walking time is generally quicker than the tram, depending how fast somebody walks of course

Yet someone train booking sites and National Rail Enquiries, suggest taking the tram as part of the journey on certain journeys.

 

[tsr]

I find that if a 12 car train starts to arrive on the platform, you can make it down the ramp before the trains tops.

Yes indeed, though to some extent it does of course depend if anyone's dawdling ahead of you. Also, of course, despatch of a 12-car always takes at least a touch longer anyway. 4-car services are still tricky to get to in a hurry due to the eternal scaffolding.

Walking time is generally quicker than the tram, depending how fast somebody walks of course

I find there's really not much in it, but as I usually have something to carry I generally take the tram. As trams are usually pretty reliable except when a queue of buses sabotages them, I don't feel it's too risky.

 

[talldave]

Yet someone train booking sites and National Rail Enquiries, suggest taking the tram as part of the journey on certain journeys.

Yes, as I discovered, NRE still create a tram dependent itinerary even when the tracks are being dug up for a couple of weeks.

 

[BingBong50]

Do we have light at the end of the ramps !!!!

Despite the now obscure glass on the ramps at East Croydon it seems at long last that the platform work is nearing completion. The scaffolding seems to be gradually being removed and light is coming through a glass roof on the platforms.

Is this the end to the work at East Croydon? hummm.

 

[robvulpes]

Is this the end to the work at East Croydon? hummm.

Not if this comprehensive new report posted this morning on London Reconnections is to be believed - only the end of the current project. Plenty more disruption if/when this next major capacity enhancement is commenced. Hopefully I will have retired from daily commuting through E Croydon by then.

http://www.londonreconnections.com/2015/east-croydon-revisited/

Rob

 

[BingBong50]

A complex document and not sure I fully understand all of it.

Hopefully at least in the immediate future we will be without works going on at East Croydon and normality can be resumed!

Just hope they remove those ugly and disused advertising boards facing platform 6 and all the accumulated rubbish underneath them.

 

[edwin_m]

A complex document and not sure I fully understand all of it.

Hopefully at least in the immediate future we will be without works going on at East Croydon and normality can be resumed!

As I read it, what are now platforms 1 and 2 will be moved further north to make room for some extra pointwork, with an extra fast line island platform alongside them. The slow line platforms stay roughly where they are but there are numerous track alterations north and south of the station. The new bridge should still be able to serve all platforms but there will need to be major work to link them back to the main access at the south end. Hopefully this will include decking over the tracks in question to increase the size of the main concourse.

This is of course only a proposal. When or if it is funded and delivered is anyone's guess.

 

[Deepgreen]

Do we have light at the end of the ramps !!!!

Despite the now obscure glass on the ramps at East Croydon it seems at long last that the platform work is nearing completion. The scaffolding seems to be gradually being removed and light is coming through a glass roof on the platforms.

Is this the end to the work at East Croydon? hummm.

Not forgetting digging up the platforms again to install tactile paving (unless they are going down the ridiculous route of glueing them on top of the paving - giving an extra trip hazard just where it can least be afforded and a much shorter life for the tactiles before they start to come unstuck.

 

[mirodo]

Not forgetting digging up the platforms again to install tactile paving (unless they are going down the ridiculous route of glueing them on top of the paving - giving an extra trip hazard just where it can least be afforded and a much shorter life for the tactiles before they start to come unstuck.

There is also the option of bolts which can be drilled into the surface.