East Midlands Railway short formed services

[edwin_m]

Some Wellingborough passengers may also opt to use Kettering instead because of the half hourly non stop service.

I'd question whether that would happen much, at least for Wellingborough-London and at least after the 360s are refurbished. The time saving of the non-stop service over the 360 isn't enough to justify driving to Kettering, unless someone's starting point is close to equidistant from the two. And I assume Kettering costs more.

 

[Llandudno]

I'd question whether that would happen much, at least for Wellingborough-London and at least after the 360s are refurbished. The time saving of the non-stop service over the 360 isn't enough to justify driving to Kettering, unless someone's starting point is close to equidistant from the two. And I assume Kettering costs more.

South Northants residents may drive to Bedford to get significantly cheaper fares..?

 

[paddy1]

South Northants residents may drive to Bedford to get significantly cheaper fares..?

Yes, and still use EMR 360 trains and enjoy quicker journey times but with Thameslink getting a disproportionate share of the revenue and not all or most of the it going to EMR as it would be if they travelled from Wellingborough.

 

[Carlisle]

Yes, and still use EMR 360 trains and enjoy quicker journey times but with Thameslink getting a disproportionate share of the revenue and not all or most of the it going to EMR as it would be if they travelled from Wellingborough.

That’s not really a passengers concern, All they can do is utilise available fare structures to their best advantage,

 

[Bald Rick]

I travelled on the shortformed 1747 off Pancras this evening. 4 vice 8 (planned) / 12 (envisaged). This is apparently the busiest evening peak train on the Corby services. And Wednesday is the busiest day of the week at present.

Enough seats for everyone - just - albeit some people chose to stand rather than take the middle seats in the 3 a sides.

As an aside, following comments on these pages I was expecting the train to be tatty on the inside and with bad seats, but it was in good condition and the seats were fine.

 

[Llandudno]

I travelled on the shortformed 1747 off Pancras this evening. 4 vice 8 (planned) / 12 (envisaged). This is apparently the busiest evening peak train on the Corby services. And Wednesday is the busiest day of the week at present.

Enough seats for everyone - just - albeit some people chose to stand rather than take the middle seats in the 3 a sides.

As an aside, following comments on these pages I was expecting the train to be tatty on the inside and with bad seats, but it was in good condition and the seats were fine.

Is Wednesday currently busier than Saturdays?

I would have thought in the north of England Saturdays would be the busiest day of the week?

 

[Bald Rick]

Is Wednesday currently busier than Saturdays?

I would have thought in the north of England Saturdays would be the busiest day of the week?

Very much so. On a national basis, all weekdays are busier than either Saturday or Sunday. I don’t know about regional variations, but lines that have predominantly leisure travel may well be busier at weekends - but then some always were.

 

[Llandudno]

Very much so. On a national basis, all weekdays are busier than either Saturday or Sunday. I don’t know about regional variations, but lines that have predominantly leisure travel may well be busier at weekends - but then some always were.

Fair enough, I don’t use trains in the south of England (apart from occasional long distance journeys to/from London) trains in north Wales and Northern trains seem very busy on Saturdays though, boosted by the booming leisure market and the return of sporting events.

EMR’s Nottingham to Liverpool route is bursting at the seams on Saturdays!

 

[apinnard]

I live in Thrapston and have a need to commute to London a handful of times a month. I have recently switched to using Huntingdon and the Thameslink service from there as the TL and GN peak services are more reliable and not as crowded as the EMR equivalents from Wellingborough and Kettering.

 

[paddy1]

That’s not really a passengers concern, All they can do is utilise available fare structures to their best advantage,

More than happy to see passengers use the fare structure to their advantage. I did exactly the same when I lived on that route. Serves EMR right for charging high fares while running short trains.

 

[Starmill]

Fair enough, I don’t use trains in the south of England (apart from occasional long distance journeys to/from London) trains in north Wales and Northern trains seem very busy on Saturdays though, boosted by the booming leisure market and the return of sporting events.

EMR’s Nottingham to Liverpool route is bursting at the seams on Saturdays!

A train being very busy means lots of people are travelling at the same time, not that the route is particularly "busy" in general.

 

[Killingworth]

A train being very busy means lots of people are travelling at the same time, not that the route is particularly "busy" in general.

The Nottingham-Liverpool route is indeed very busy on Saturdays, but the numbers could usually be accommodated on 4 car trains. On some days, times, and at some points 6 would be better. Currently far too many are being operated by 2 which is absurd and leads to delays caused by overcrowding.

 

[STINT47]

Liverpool to Norwich would ideally be six cars Liverpool to Nottingham and four cars onwards to Norwich. I suspect that there is suppressed demand on this route. I would personally use it more if I knew I would stand a high chance of getting a seat.

 

[dk1]

Liverpool to Norwich would ideally be six cars Liverpool to Nottingham and four cars onwards to Norwich. I suspect that there is suppressed demand on this route. I would personally use it more if I knew I would stand a high chance of getting a seat.

Personally I think something similar to TfWs plans with 197s operating in 5-car formation Liverpool-Nottingham then the 3-car unit continues on the eastern leg to Norwich.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Liverpool to Norwich would ideally be six cars Liverpool to Nottingham and four cars onwards to Norwich. I suspect that there is suppressed demand on this route. I would personally use it more if I knew I would stand a high chance of getting a seat.

There's a lot of suppressed demand on the route as well as a lot of traffic that travels alternative routes, even so far as to use it Norwich to Peterborough then travel via Leeds. A fine example is the Crewe line, it now runs through to Nottingham and has two carriage and throughout the day it loads almost to capacity. Go back a few years, it was a single 153 loading about 30-40 throughout the main part of the day. Its more than double that now and we're "post covid".

 

[dk1]

There's a lot of suppressed demand on the route as well as a lot of traffic that travels alternative routes, even so far as to use it Norwich to Peterborough then travel via Leeds. A fine example is the Crewe line, it now runs through to Nottingham and has two carriage and throughout the day it loads almost to capacity. Go back a few years, it was a single 153 loading about 30-40 throughout the main part of the day. Its more than double that now and we're "post covid".

It must be at least 20 years since I’ve seen any promotional advertising for this route here in East Anglia. No billboard or newspaper advertising whatsoever let alone TV or Radio. No surprise that many are surprised when you tell them there’s an hourly service to the North West.

 

[dosxuk]

It must be at least 20 years since I’ve seen any promotional advertising for this route here in East Anglia. No billboard or newspaper advertising whatsoever let alone TV or Radio. No surprise that many are surprised when you tell them there’s an hourly service to the North West.

It was nearly 20 years ago when Central Trains were publicly stating they were putting the ticket prices up so significantly on the route because they trying to reduce demand. It never really seemed to work - although to be fair the trains are still rammed today even when they're half the size they should be and you've got zero guarantee they'll actually get to the planned destination, at least within 15 minutes of when you expect. To me that suggests that a decent and reliable service could open up a significant level of demand.

 

[dk1]

It was nearly 20 years ago when Central Trains were publicly stating they were putting the ticket prices up so significantly on the route because they trying to reduce demand. It never really seemed to work - although to be fair the trains are still rammed today even when they're half the size they should be and you've got zero guarantee they'll actually get to the planned destination, at least within 15 minutes of when you expect. To me that suggests that a decent and reliable service could open up a significant level of demand.

It certainly could. Not the fastest but those that use it value it’s connectivity & convenience. Reducing the service with the current EMR issues has caused many mid-morning trains to be F&S on departure from Norwich. You know then it’ll be an hour & a half until you get a seat. Central brought in that ridiculous off-peak before 09:00 that really put the dampers on trains like the 07:57 & 08:57.

 

[Djgr]

Fair enough, I don’t use trains in the south of England (apart from occasional long distance journeys to/from London) trains in north Wales and Northern trains seem very busy on Saturdays though, boosted by the booming leisure market and the return of sporting events.

EMR’s Nottingham to Liverpool route is bursting at the seams on Saturdays!

Are any trains regularly rammed in London and the South East on Saturdays?

 

[WesternLancer]

It was nearly 20 years ago when Central Trains were publicly stating they were putting the ticket prices up so significantly on the route because they trying to reduce demand. It never really seemed to work - although to be fair the trains are still rammed today even when they're half the size they should be and you've got zero guarantee they'll actually get to the planned destination, at least within 15 minutes of when you expect. To me that suggests that a decent and reliable service could open up a significant level of demand.

no real logic for the route not to have 4 or 5 car voyager type trains. Same for the XC stansted brum IMHO. Not looked at stats but I'd think that for many population cohorts the travel growth has been inter-regional - not to / from london (I'm thinking massive growth in student numbers, larger numbers of the 'active retired' etc)

Are any trains regularly rammed in London and the South East on Saturdays?

Southern 2 or 3 car DMUs Brighton to Ashford were when they ran that route as the fast trains. One of the reasons why they stopped the through service.

 

[dk1]

no real logic for the route not to have 4 or 5 car voyager type trains. Same for the XC stansted brum IMHO. Not looked at stats but I'd think that for many population cohorts the travel growth has been inter-regional - not to / from london (I'm thinking massive growth in student numbers, larger numbers of the 'active retired' etc)

Speed restrictions for heavier Voyagers in this neck of the woods.

 

[Bald Rick]

Same for the XC stansted brum IMHO

Also, you can’t fit 4x23m in the Stansted bay.

 

[dk1]

Also, you can’t fit 4x23m in the Stansted bay.

And that too!!

 

[edwin_m]

Not to mention that a 4-car 158 seats more people than a Voyager.

 

[dosxuk]

Not to mention that a 4-car 158 seats more people than a Voyager.

What about a 2-car 156? , as that seems to be about the best to hope for these days on the east side. You may get lucky with a 158, but don't pin any hopes on it.

 

[WesternLancer]

Also, you can’t fit 4x23m in the Stansted bay.

sounds like an investment need for the levelling up ministry then....

 

[Bald Rick]

sounds like an investment need for the levelling up ministry then....

It’s been extended once, and is now as long as it can be without major expenditure. The choice is between complete remodelling of the station approach tracks, including building new retaining walls for the terminal approach road ... or demolishing the southern corner of the terminal.

 

[Killingworth]

As an occasional user of the Regional services in both directions through Sheffield I have first hand experience of being rammed into a 2 car 158 when fellow intending passengers were unable to get aboard. I've seen a young lady suffer a panic attack and have to leave an overcrowded train and go for a later TPE service after a time out.

However we users don't have to crew these trains. Those who do record accurate figures of how well the trains are loading. They know very well what it's like and have to live with this almost every working day. EMR's platform staff can see how hard it is to get all aboard and have to placate those who can't, sometimes requiring BTP support. Management must be accutely aware of the shortcomings.

It's not new either. Having worked in a different industry that was in a similar meltdown position it was hell! We worked massive amounts of overtime to cover inadequacies and customers still went ballistic almost every day. In our case it was new IT that didn't work. It took too much time for top management to accept the source of the problem and then a long time to put it right. Staff who could get better and less stressful jobs went elsewhere adding a further twist to the problems.

EMR can't magic up new units in days. What we all, passengers and employees, want to know is if and how all can be resolved in time for the December timetable changes. Nothing we're seeing at present suggests they can restore all the missing trains at full length by then, quite possibly not even before May. Or maybe later!

There's an EMR Stakeholder event in Nottingham next month. It will be interesting to hear honest and open explanations at that time.

 

[WesternLancer]

As an occasional user of the Regional services in both directions through Sheffield I have first hand experience of being rammed into a 2 car 158 when fellow intending passengers were unable to get aboard. I've seen a young lady suffer a panic attack and have to leave an overcrowded train and go for a later TPE service after a time out.

However we users don't have to crew these trains. Those who do record accurate figures of how well the trains are loading. They know very well what it's like and have to live with this almost every working day. EMR's platform staff can see how hard it is to get all aboard and have to placate those who can't, sometimes requiring BTP support. Management must be accutely aware of the shortcomings.

It's not new either. Having worked in a different industry that was in a similar meltdown position it was hell! We worked massive amounts of overtime to cover inadequacies and customers still went ballistic almost every day. In our case it was new IT that didn't work. It took too much time for top management to accept the source of the problem and then a long time to put it right. Staff who could get better and less stressful jobs went elsewhere adding a further twist to the problems.

EMR can't magic up new units in days. What we all, passengers and employees, want to know is if and how all can be resolved in time for the December timetable changes. Nothing we're seeing at present suggests they can restore all the missing trains at full length by then, quite possibly not even before May. Or maybe later!

There's an EMR Stakeholder event in Nottingham next month. It will be interesting to hear honest and open explanations at that time.

what are the details of the stakeholder event?

 

[Killingworth]

what are the details of the stakeholder event?

Invitations went out about a fortnight ago. It's at Trent Bridge on 9th November.