East Midlands Railway short formed services

londonmidland

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After using EMR regional services between Nottingham and Manchester/Liverpool over the past 3-4 weeks, I have noticed that there have been short formed services, which seem to be happening more and more often.

It seems around half of the services are only formed of 2 coaches. Mostly run by 158s. The train I am on now (1R70) 13:45 Nottingham to Liverpool Lime Street is full and standing, as it is only a 2 coach train.

So it begs the question, why are short forms becoming increasingly more common across this route? Do the 170s fail regularly, which requires short notice set swaps?
 
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PHILIPE

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After using EMR regional services between Nottingham and Manchester/Liverpool over the past 3-4 weeks, I have noticed that there have been short formed services, which seem to be happening more and more often.

It seems around half of the services are only formed of 2 coaches. Mostly run by 158s. The train I am on now (1R70) 13:45 Nottingham to Liverpool Lime Street is full and standing, as it is only a 2 coach train.

So it begs the question, why are short forms becoming increasingly more common across this route? Do the 170s fail regularly, which requires short notice set swaps?


They are not worked by 170s. 158s are the booked traction but 156s often deputise and there have been a lot recently along the route but overall EMR are short of units,
 
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londonmidland

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They are not worked by 170s. 158s are the booked traction
Sorry, I didn’t word it very well. I meant could a failed 170 for a Worksop/Leicester/Lincoln service be subbed for a 158, causing the short form on the NOT-LIV service?
 

londonmidland

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Unrelated but quite a few EMR services from Nottingham are cancelled this afternoon due to train crew issues. C014175F-DE34-4E2D-BC9E-C89A1871B649.png
 

STINT47

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Short formed trains and cancellations seem to have got worse on EMR recently. Also looking at the PPM figures they're getting worse compared to other operators and past performance.

The service is going downhill but I cannot identify a particular reason, which is rather worrying as a regular passenger.
 

yorksrob

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I was stood at Man Pic today and saw two EMR services pass eachother in quick succession, both 2 carriage 158's. The one towards Liverpool seemed to be particularly cosy !

I know that in the past EMR and EMT have chucked 156's and 153's on the back to deputise.

I wonder, have they handed back a few too many 15x's recently !

On the plus side, at least TPE have been putting 6 carriages on the Hope Valley recently. This seems to be the service to aim for now (as far as Manchester anyway).
 

londonmidland

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On the plus side, at least TPE have been putting 6 carriages on the Hope Valley recently. This seems to be the service to aim for now (as far as Manchester anyway).
I’m actually on a 6 coach 185 now along the Hope Valley and it’s a significant upgrade over EMR’s 2 coach cramped 158s. Obvious reason with there being more capacity, but also a much better passenger experience, with a spaced out airy interior, comfy seats, as well as plug sockets and WiFi as standard.
 

yorksrob

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I’m actually on a 6 coach 185 now along the Hope Valley and it’s a significant upgrade over EMR’s 2 coach cramped 158s. Obvious reason with there being more capacity, but also a much better passenger experience, with a spaced out airy interior, comfy seats, as well as plug sockets and WiFi as standard.

Funnily enough, theyre two unit types I both like.

A couple of years ago, TPE were putting on single 185's, which tended to get quite crowded, so the four carriage 158's put on by EMR/T were my were my go-to service of choice (particularly as you could get on at Oxford Road and pre-empt the rush at Piccadilly !).

During the start of the lockdown easing, 2 carriage 158's haven't been such an issue, but I expect they will be going forward !
 

HST43277

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Has there been more trains needing repair recently is that why there isn’t Double 158s anymore? Just seems that as more people are starting to travel there seems to be less carriages on services.
 

Failed Unit

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I suspect the extra trains added to the May timetable and the 170s still not transferred from other operators hasn’t helped.
 

MikeWM

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As I mentioned over on the Covid sub-forum earlier, the 1034 Nottingham (ex-Liverpool) to Grantham didn't even manage to leave Nottingham because too many people wanted to get on - was 2 cars on arrival at Nottingham.

The 'shortage of staff' cancellations today do seem rather unfortunate, particularly eg. on the Skegness services on a sunny bank holiday Saturday.

I've not been following this closely, but EMR do seem to have an interesting/odd mix of stock at the moment, with some clearly recently from GA, some from WMT, and at least one set from Hull Trains...
 

Foxcover

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Do they get a penalty for persistent short-forming, given they will be getting the same revenue for less expense and profiting, albeit unintentionally? I realise it may not be their ‘fault’ but just interested in the incentive.
 

Failed Unit

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Do they get a penalty for persistent short-forming, given they will be getting the same revenue for less expense and profiting, albeit unintentionally? I realise it may not be their ‘fault’ but just interested in the incentive.
They do. But then if the reason is because other operators new trains are not fit for purpose that manufacturer should be footing the bill. EMR were hit last year with Greater Anglia holding onto the 156s as their new trains didn’t work. Lesson buy new. If your stock new stock doesn’t work, it is the operator who it is getting cascaded to that loses.
 

yorksrob

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Surely if the cascading company is able to cling onto stock due to late delivery, so then can the cascadee with its existing fleet ?
 

Andy Pacer

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As I mentioned over on the Covid sub-forum earlier, the 1034 Nottingham (ex-Liverpool) to Grantham didn't even manage to leave Nottingham because too many people wanted to get on - was 2 cars on arrival at Nottingham.

The 'shortage of staff' cancellations today do seem rather unfortunate, particularly eg. on the Skegness services on a sunny bank holiday Saturday.

I've not been following this closely, but EMR do seem to have an interesting/odd mix of stock at the moment, with some clearly recently from GA, some from WMT, and at least one set from Hull Trains...
Yep, nothing to Syston for hours but told no replacement bus, no taxis, nothing to be done.... poor customer service.
 

dk1

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So many 156 formed services on the Nottingham-Norwich leg in the last few months.
 

Failed Unit

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There has to be set diagrams. It could appear .that 156/158s are allocated as if in a common Pool
Sorry that is what I meant. Certain trains are 156 one day and 158s another. But no real logic to guess which will show up. For example in the last timetable the 1645 Newark NorthGate - Grimsby should be a 156 but was very frequently a 158.
 

LowLevel

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Much of the problem is a shortage of drivers passed on 170s causing 15x to have to deputise on their diagrams which in turn causes 15x shortages. 170s also can't work in service in multi with 15x as the PA systems are mostly not compatible causing further restriction still. They have been trying to get 170s out where possible on to other diagrams but it involves checking out individual drivers and guards rostered on a given day for crew competency which can be challenging. Down to 5 working 153s, 2 of which are required for Barton on Humber, 156918 is in store at Barrow Hill (good riddance - it is not a good unit) and 156902 is at Wolverton for overhaul. A low speed derailment at Etches Park last week has taken 2 stabling roads out further squeezing capacity, they're awaiting parts with a lead time for repair. 158863 has been out of use since December when it derailed at Eastcroft, one vehicle of that is at Doncaster for repairs to significant damage.

It is the kind of thing that will be sorted over time but for now it is a problem.

If you remember Greater Anglia 18 months ago that was a fairly similar disaster. I personally have everything crossed that things will start coming together much sooner.
 
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Much of the problem is a shortage of drivers passed on 170s causing 15x to have to deputise on their diagrams which in turn causes 15x shortages. 170s also can't work in service in multi with 15x as the PA systems are mostly not compatible causing further restriction still. They have been trying to get 170s out where possible on to other diagrams but it involves checking out individual drivers and guards rostered on a given day for crew competency which can be challenging. Down to 5 working 153s, 2 of which are required for Barton on Humber, 156918 is in store at Barrow Hill (good riddance - it is not a good unit) and 156902 is at Wolverton for overhaul. A low speed derailment at Etches Park last week has taken 2 stabling roads out further squeezing capacity, they're awaiting parts with a lead time for repair. 158863 has been out of use since December when it derailed at Eastcroft, one vehicle of that is at Doncaster for repairs to significant damage.

It is the kind of thing that will be sorted over time but for now it is a problem.

If you remember Greater Anglia 18 months ago that was a fairly similar disaster. I personally have everything crossed that things will start coming together much sooner.

Scotrail operate 170/158 in multiple.
 

LowLevel

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Scotrail operate 170/158 in multiple.

They do. But the co-existence at EMR of 15x and 170 was meant to be time limited and so there are multiple non compatible systems in use. In practice apart from Liverpool to Norwich the 170s can now work anywhere so it isn't a huge issue in normal times.
 

Trainfan2019

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Talking of short formed EMR services, the Crewe route seems to have lost the luxury of 3 carriage 170s since the route extension and timetable changes. Now seems to be 2 carriage 158s or 156s again. Any reason for this?
 

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