ECML closed PBO to KGX Aug Bank Holiday routing

47421

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You learn something new everyday. Does this mean that the allocations will *swap* for the weekend effectively seeing 317s on Stansted Express duties in 8-car formation and 379s on Cambridge duties in 12-car formations?
Yes 2016 Franchise Agreement requires GA to fit SDO beacons at 96 platforms and on 27 x 317 units. Like so many of their commitments, it never happened. Does look like they will need to run a few Stansted diagrams with 317s to release some 379s.
 
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Aictos

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You learn something new everyday. Does this mean that the allocations will *swap* for the weekend effectively seeing 317s on Stansted Express duties in 8-car formation and 379s on Cambridge duties in 12-car formations?
That would be the best solution but do they have enough Class 317s to do that?
 

47421

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That would be the best solution but do they have enough Class 317s to do that?
Think so. Weekdays there are 27 out of 30 379s diagrammed . 9x2 StanExp and 3x3 on Camb peak. To run 12 cars half hourly to Camb need 6x3, so 9 more than on weekdays. Pretty sure they can rustle up 9 x 317 on a Saturday, since they got a few exGN ones couple of years ago they have not been very intensively used esp at weekends
 

700007

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Yes 2016 Franchise Agreement requires GA to fit SDO beacons at 96 platforms and on 27 x 317 units. Like so many of their commitments, it never happened. Does look like they will need to run a few Stansted diagrams with 317s to release some 379s.
Yes I thought this was planned to happen alongside making the 317s DDA compliant but that doesn't seem to have happened...
 

Aictos

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Think so. Weekdays there are 27 out of 30 379s diagrammed . 9x2 StanExp and 3x3 on Camb peak. To run 12 cars half hourly to Camb need 6x3, so 9 more than on weekdays. Pretty sure they can rustle up 9 x 317 on a Saturday, since they got a few exGN ones couple of years ago they have not been very intensively used esp at weekends
That would make sense but we see, I just hope that enough capacity is put in place both rail and road considering KGX PSB is completely closed.
 

Class 170101

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Think so. Weekdays there are 27 out of 30 379s diagrammed . 9x2 StanExp and 3x3 on Camb peak. To run 12 cars half hourly to Camb need 6x3, so 9 more than on weekdays. Pretty sure they can rustle up 9 x 317 on a Saturday, since they got a few exGN ones couple of years ago they have not been very intensively used esp at weekends
Indeed - the plan is to extend the Bishops Stortford terminator to Cambridge to allow these stations to retain a stopping hourly 8-car service whilst also providing additional coaches to Cambridge.
I think you'll find the Bishops Stortford to Cambridge extension is only hourly though. The Cambridge services could only be 12 cars on an hourly basis, I would suggest, looking at the calling pattern of the other Cambridge train.

That being said RTT at moment is showing the 2Hxx limited stop services terminating / starting Cambridge are using Platform 2 which isn't long enough for 12 car trains.
 

DarloRich

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I don't think not knowing that is all that incredible. For example, an occasional traveller might only use the railways at bank holiday weekends. And when they inevitably find every other occasional traveller trying to do the same, and they can't get a seat because there's engineering works on another line, they conclude that that's when the railways are busiest.

Also, I do think it's easy to underestimate quite how many commuters actually travel every weekday, especially if you're not one of those doing the commute. I'm in no way disputing the fact that it's busier during the working week; I'm just saying it isn't necessarily obvious.
I take the point. However, this is a board frequented by railway enthusiasts who, I assume, have more experience of travelling on the railway network and will have travelled much more widely on that network than a "normal".
 

700007

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I think you'll find the Bishops Stortford to Cambridge extension is only hourly though. The Cambridge services could only be 12 cars on an hourly basis, I would suggest, looking at the calling pattern of the other Cambridge train.

That being said RTT at moment is showing the 2Hxx limited stop services terminating / starting Cambridge are using Platform 2 which isn't long enough for 12 car trains.
It only needs to be hourly as majority of the small stations just need 1tph and this service would cater to that. In doing so, it would also provide three trains an hour from London to Cambridge and adds 32 carriages an hour to this route which is a step up from the usual 8.
 

Qwerty133

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I take the point. However, this is a board frequented by railway enthusiasts who, I assume, have more experience of travelling on the railway network and will have travelled much more widely on that network than a "normal".
I suppose the other argument is that if NR were to give 12+ months notice and basically say take annual leave or work from home for a few days as no trains will be running (especially if those days were in August so many would be willing to take the advice and there were financial incentives to do so) the numbers of commuters could be heavily reduced and those who were needing to travel would be better able to manage disrupted journeys than less regular passengers who travel at bank holiday weekends.
 

driver_m

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I’m not going through this whole thread, but I’m quite please that for once, the WCML is not blocked on the August Bank Holiday weekend and the ECML can have a turn at being blocked. Might be able to watch a RL Challenge Cup final at Wembley using a Train for a nice change!
 

The Planner

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I’m not going through this whole thread, but I’m quite please that for once, the WCML is not blocked on the August Bank Holiday weekend and the ECML can have a turn at being blocked. Might be able to watch a RL Challenge Cup final at Wembley using a Train for a nice change!
To be fair, that is a standing agreement with LNE anyway.
 

DarloRich

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I suppose the other argument is that if NR were to give 12+ months notice and basically say take annual leave or work from home for a few days as no trains will be running (especially if those days were in August so many would be willing to take the advice and there were financial incentives to do so) the numbers of commuters could be heavily reduced and those who were needing to travel would be better able to manage disrupted journeys than less regular passengers who travel at bank holiday weekends.
That has happened in the past essentially around long blockades

However somehwere, and perhaps lots of places, are still going to be closed as the resource you juggled to move your massive bank holiday work to suit occasional travelers is finite and the rest of the work still needs to be completed.
 

SideshowBob

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They do. There just aren't as many of them unless I'm mistaken
If you're having to choose who to disrupt, you're going to prioritise those who could defer their travel. Those who have to get to work, or else have to waste annual leave for the day off, are going to be more important than someone making a trip to go shopping or go to the seaside.

If you are organising alternative travel arrangements that will add a long time to journey times, or will have limited capacity in comparison, why would you do this on a weekday compared to a weekend or bank holiday?

Obviously there are people who work weekends too, plus shift workers that may suffer longer journey times, but you are massively reducing the impact on the majority of people.

Remember, you have to do the work so suggesting you don't impact anyone isn't an option. You have to make a decision, and the right decision is to do work at weekends, Sunday mornings, bank holidays and Christmas.
Numbers are massively higher during the week by about 2.5 to 3 times as many per day.

GTR is the largest operator affected by the work (would be about 77% of services in the engineering works area if done on a weekday and a similar but slightly variable number at the weekend) but no one seems to want focus on the impacts there. You have to look at GTR impacts first.
You honestly need someone to explain that numbers travelling are less on a weekend or a bank holiday compared to a normal weekday? really?

BTW that most you don't like is the most accurate on this thread.
I don't think not knowing that is all that incredible. For example, an occasional traveller might only use the railways at bank holiday weekends. And when they inevitably find every other occasional traveller trying to do the same, and they can't get a seat because there's engineering works on another line, they conclude that that's when the railways are busiest.

Also, I do think it's easy to underestimate quite how many commuters actually travel every weekday, especially if you're not one of those doing the commute. I'm in no way disputing the fact that it's busier during the working week; I'm just saying it isn't necessarily obvious.
This is happening on the last weekend of the Edinburgh Festival, when people in numbers significantly larger than usual even on a Bank Holiday will be wanting to leave Edinburgh and head for London. From that point of view, the timing of these works is less than ideal.
 

hwl

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This is happening on the last weekend of the Edinburgh Festival, when people in numbers significantly larger than usual even on a Bank Holiday will be wanting to leave Edinburgh and head for London. From that point of view, the timing of these works is less than ideal.
Still way better than doing it during the week. Edinburgh is just 1tph of the 30+tph week day peak services in the effected area.
Cross Country running HST through out that weekend will help lessen the impact.
 

SideshowBob

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Still way better than doing it during the week. (...)
Cross Country running HST through out that weekend will help lessen the impact.
I agree a Bank Holiday weekend is preferable to a working week; I just wonder whether this particular Bank Holiday weekend might not be the best one.
 

jon0844

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This is happening on the last weekend of the Edinburgh Festival, when people in numbers significantly larger than usual even on a Bank Holiday will be wanting to leave Edinburgh and head for London. From that point of view, the timing of these works is less than ideal.
If the WCML is still operating, then the trains to Euston would seem a good bet.
 

SideshowBob

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If the WCML is still operating, then the trains to Euston would seem a good bet.
In theory, but if the West Coast is swamped with end-of-Edinburgh-Festival East Coast passengers for London (whether through ticket acceptance, altered bookings, original bookings made later than they otherwise would've been or a combination of all three), that will affect intending passengers starting further south as well. I'm afraid I'm still not convinced that (for example) one of the May Bank Holidays wouldn't have been a better time for these works to take place.
 

hwl

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In theory, but if the West Coast is swamped with end-of-Edinburgh-Festival East Coast passengers for London (whether through ticket acceptance, altered bookings, original bookings made later than they otherwise would've been or a combination of all three), that will affect intending passengers starting further south as well. I'm afraid I'm still not convinced that (for example) one of the May Bank Holidays wouldn't have been a better time for these works to take place.
So delay the work another year?

The WCML and ECML closures are coordinated so only one is closed and plenty of HS2 work on the WCML to do.
 

SideshowBob

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So delay the work another year?

The WCML and ECML closures are coordinated so only one is closed and plenty of HS2 work on the WCML to do.
I meant one of this year's May Bank Holidays, rather than next year's - aploogies for not making that clear! :)

Obviously it's good that the works on either coast are co-ordinated, but HS2 or other work on the West Coast Main Line isn't the point. The point is that, whilst it's true that major works like this East Coast project are best done at Bank Holiday (and ordinary) weekends as fewer people travel, Bank Holiday weekends are still busy enough to cause severe overcrowding on trains and this particular Bank Holiday weekend is one of the busiest ones, especially in Edinburgh's case.

I'm very glad that these works are being done but I'm just not sure that it wouldn't have been better to schedule them to avoid probably the busiest weekend of the year for travel between Edinburgh and London.
 

hwl

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I meant one of this year's May Bank Holidays, rather than next year's - aploogies for not making that clear! :)

Obviously it's good that the works on either coast are co-ordinated, but HS2 or other work on the West Coast Main Line isn't the point. The point is that, whilst it's true that major works like this East Coast project are best done at Bank Holiday (and ordinary) weekends as fewer people travel, Bank Holiday weekends are still busy enough to cause severe overcrowding on trains and this particular Bank Holiday weekend is one of the busiest ones, especially in Edinburgh's case.

I'm very glad that these works are being done but I'm just not sure that it wouldn't have been better to schedule them to avoid probably the busiest weekend of the year for travel between Edinburgh and London.
Christmas and the Calutta cup weekend will be pretty busy too.
 

The Planner

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You are assuming they could have been ready for May, its also moot as the WCML was chock a block full of work so it couldnt have happened anyway.
 

Kite159

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In theory, but if the West Coast is swamped with end-of-Edinburgh-Festival East Coast passengers for London (whether through ticket acceptance, altered bookings, original bookings made later than they otherwise would've been or a combination of all three), that will affect intending passengers starting further south as well. I'm afraid I'm still not convinced that (for example) one of the May Bank Holidays wouldn't have been a better time for these works to take place.
Are Virgin planning to run any additional Edinburgh - Euston 'crowd-buster' services in additional to the usual 2-hourly via Birmingham service? [although unless they cut back the Liverpool services to run as a Crewe shuttle & one of the 3 trains an hour to Birmingham, keeping the 3tph for Manchester for crowds from York/Leeds]
 

SideshowBob

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Christmas and the Calutta cup weekend will be pretty busy too.
Yes, but not as busy.

You are assuming they could have been ready for May, its also moot as the WCML was chock a block full of work so it couldnt have happened anyway.
I'm not knowingly making assumptions. Equally, I presume you're not trying to suggest that there was no room for improvement at all in terms of schedule planning for these works...?

Are Virgin planning to run any additional Edinburgh - Euston 'crowd-buster' services in additional to the usual 2-hourly via Birmingham service? [although unless they cut back the Liverpool services to run as a Crewe shuttle & one of the 3 trains an hour to Birmingham, keeping the 3tph for Manchester for crowds from York/Leeds]
I don't know - according to LNER's Twitter feed, release of advance tickets for the affected period is anticipated to take place this coming Friday (14th June 2019), so presumably all this kind of information will become clear then unless someone here is ITK (in the know) and could tell us beforehand?

https://twitter.com/LNER/status/1138800347164631041?s=19

LNER on Twitter (@LNER) said:
The timetable for that weekend should be released on Friday. ^PA
 

DarloRich

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In theory, but if the West Coast is swamped with end-of-Edinburgh-Festival East Coast passengers for London (whether through ticket acceptance, altered bookings, original bookings made later than they otherwise would've been or a combination of all three), that will affect intending passengers starting further south as well. I'm afraid I'm still not convinced that (for example) one of the May Bank Holidays wouldn't have been a better time for these works to take place.
Over both may bank holidays euston and the wcml were closed or severely disrupted. The rules say only one of the ecml and wcml may be closed at the same time.

Honestly this kind of thing gets looked at in detail. It is not back of a fag packet stuff!
 
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jon0844

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In theory, but if the West Coast is swamped with end-of-Edinburgh-Festival East Coast passengers for London (whether through ticket acceptance, altered bookings, original bookings made later than they otherwise would've been or a combination of all three), that will affect intending passengers starting further south as well. I'm afraid I'm still not convinced that (for example) one of the May Bank Holidays wouldn't have been a better time for these works to take place.
I am sure the people coming back from the festival will be spread out and not all going to London. I doubt it will have a major impact as people can get as far as Peterborough and then 'disperse'.

In the grand scheme of things, I doubt people travelling from Scotland are going to be too concerned.
 

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