ECML Enhancements including Huntingdon-Peterborough 4-tracking

[mr_jrt]

Somewhat unrealistic, but it'd probably quite useful to extend the 3rd pair from Ally Pally to WGC, segregating all the metro services from the suburban. Cheap (relatively speaking) 60mph all-stopping local lines and the slows upgraded to 100mph and everything running semi-fast. Any major obstacles? I can't imagine new tunnel bores would pose much of a technical problem in this day and age....

 

[Skimble19]

That would certainly be an ideal option, although I suspect cost would be an issue..

 

[D365]

378s have better acceleration than 313s, I assume. Since MerseyRail have begun the procurement process for new trains, I will be sending them an email to suggest combining their order with that for a new GN fleet, replacing the 507s, 508s and GN 313s in one swoop.

A third pair of tracks to WGC would make it possible for inner-suburban services to be almost completely independent. Digswell Viaduct (Welwyn North) is obviously an obstacle, but could the GN build be designed for 90mph operation? Faster acceleration would definitely allow pathing to be tighter.

A LO takeover candidate, perhaps? I'd call it "Great Northern Heights".

 

[A-driver]

What would 90mph units achieve on GN suburban services anyway? I reckon you could get 90 briefly between bayford and Hertford on the down and Stevenage and watton and Hertford on the up but nowhere on the WGC line as the stations are too close together.

The highest speed you get on the WGC line is oakleigh park-southgate as its so downhill and that's about 70. You may just brush 70 between WGC and Hatfield if you are feeling brave with the braking! Everywhere else you are not getting above 55ish between stations.

313s have pretty good acceleration-I wouldn't say a 377 is much, if any, better and I have driven signed both classes. Not sure how different a 378 is from a 377.

 

[D365]

Just an idea, I don't know exactly what speed the 313s get up to en route. If the replacement stock ran Peterborough/Cambridge to Moorgate alongside Thameslink services, my dad could get to work without changing trains!

 

[Aictos]

Just an idea, I don't know exactly what speed the 313s get up to en route. If the replacement stock ran Peterborough/Cambridge to Moorgate alongside Thameslink services, my dad could get to work without changing trains!

Will never happen, I believe Kings Cross to Peterborough is East Coast's biggest flow with Kings Cross to Leeds in second place so I doubt any any operator will run Peterborough to Moorgate when they would prefer a share of the Peterborough to Kings Cross market instead.

 

[transmanche]

Will never happen, I believe Kings Cross to Peterborough is East Coast's biggest flow with Kings Cross to Leeds in second place so I doubt any any operator will run Peterborough to Moorgate when they would prefer a share of the Peterborough to Kings Cross market instead.

And thanks to the link to the Sectional Appendices posted elsewhere, I can add that 313s with tripcocks and shoegear fitted (essential for getting to Moorgate) are not allowed north of St Neots.

 

[Skimble19]

I must admit, I can't see services to Moorgate being particularly popular on the PBO route.. Anyone heading that way will change at Stevenage or Finsbury Park, having services going down there would lead to far more people having to swap onto services into KGX.

 

[D365]

I must admit, I can see services to Moorgate being particularly popular on the PBO route.. Anyone heading that way will change at Stevenage or Finsbury Park, having services going down there would lead to far more people having to swap onto services into KGX.

Erm, it seems like you are contradicting yourself there? However, it would probably take my dad longer to get to Moorgate on an all-stopper, rather than a semi-fast from Huntingdon and Metropolitan, Circle, H&C or Northern from KGX. He hates it when FCC timetable extra stops!

Actually, would an inner/outer design be feasable with a 6-car 90mph fleet?

 

[Skimble19]

Erm, it seems like you are contradicting yourself there? However, it would probably take my dad longer to get to Moorgate on an all-stopper, rather than a semi-fast from Huntingdon and Metropolitan, Circle, H&C or Northern from KGX. He hates it when FCC timetable extra stops!

Actually, would an inner/outer design be feasable with a 6-car 90mph fleet?

Ahh yes, good old auto-correct. It should have read that I Can't see it being very popular!

 

[LE Greys]

Just an idea, I don't know exactly what speed the 313s get up to en route. <snip>

There was the famous 313 vs Deltic 'race' between Hatfield and Welwyn that happened every day when the Flying Scotsman caught the preceding ex-Moorgate service. Timings were purely coincidental, but usually the two could run neck-and-neck for a couple of miles at roughly the 70-75 mph range. If a 47 was deputising, the 313 tended to pull ahead before slowing down for Welwyn. I suppose that also shows you how long we've had the things.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Erm, it seems like you are contradicting yourself there? However, it would probably take my dad longer to get to Moorgate on an all-stopper, rather than a semi-fast from Huntingdon and Metropolitan, Circle, H&C or Northern from KGX. He hates it when FCC timetable extra stops!

Actually, would an inner/outer design be feasable with a 6-car 90mph fleet?

On thinking about it, a lot of people are bound to switch to Farringdon, City Thameslink or Blackfriars, but quite a few must work on the northern or eastern sides of the City, so the Moorgate branch will still see quite a lot of use.

 

[A-driver]

There was the famous 313 vs Deltic 'race' between Hatfield and Welwyn that happened every day when the Flying Scotsman caught the preceding ex-Moorgate service. Timings were purely coincidental, but usually the two could run neck-and-neck for a couple of miles at roughly the 70-75 mph range. If a 47 was deputising, the 313 tended to pull ahead before slowing down for Welwyn. I suppose that also shows you how long we've had the things.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Similar thing but I like the odd occasion a 313 leaves Stevenage on the slow at the same time a HST or 91 leaves on the fast. The intercity is generally dispatched a few seconds before the 313 so has a head start but the 313 rockets ahead through north Stevenage and wymondly and is rarely caught up by the accelerating east coast until its stopped in the platform at Hitchin. It's always satisfying to overtake 125mph stock in a 313 or 317!

 

[LE Greys]

Similar thing but I like the odd occasion a 313 leaves Stevenage on the slow at the same time a HST or 91 leaves on the fast. The intercity is generally dispatched a few seconds before the 313 so has a head start but the 313 rockets ahead through north Stevenage and wymondly and is rarely caught up by the accelerating east coast until its stopped in the platform at Hitchin. It's always satisfying to overtake 125mph stock in a 313 or 317!

Yes, I bet that's fun. I've sometimes seen it when going the other way with a 365 and a 91. The Electra usually gets the road at Woolmer Green, but I remember one being on a Networker that not only got the road, she wasn't finally overtaken until somewhere around Welham Green.

 

[D365]

Which of you drivers do I blame for waking me up in your intercity trains? I remember one of my friends doing work experience with East Coast (I think) a few years back; apparently he got to drive the train!

Anyway, what I was thinking was that 8tph from Peterborough/Cambridge would be Thameslink stock for the 'core', whilst current Welwyn and Letchworth 313 services would be extended to Peterborough/Cambridge with new stock. I doubt that will happen, but oh well!

I will probably try to find statistics on acceleration, power rating etc. on various modern EMUs; 378, 379, 380 and also the current 313s.

 

[A-driver]

Which of you drivers do I blame for waking me up in your intercity trains? I remember one of my friends doing work experience with East Coast (I think) a few years back; apparently he got to drive the train!

I am pretty sure he has been exaggerating somewhat! I would be surprised of he was even allowed in the cab of a moving train but there is no way he would be allowed to drive it!

And how do is drivers wake you up and where abouts?

 

[D365]

I am pretty sure he has been exaggerating somewhat! I would be surprised of he was even allowed in the cab of a moving train but there is no way he would be allowed to drive it!

He could have been, but he was under constant supervision for obvious reasons. I've been in the cab of a DBAG 101 electric loco, and the driver asked me if I wanted to drive it. I didn't because I was worried I would crash the train (!), but I was a lot younger then.

And how do is drivers wake you up and where abouts?

I'm a rather sensitive sleeper, I sometimes find myself waking up to the sound of trains! I'm very near to Huntingdon.

What happy memories the ECML brings me
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4-tracking and re-wiring Huntingdon-Peterborough, ERTMS installation and more. The IC225s may even get a chance to run at 140mph in regular service. Sounds good for the ECML: http://www.huntspost.co.uk/news/latest-news/rail_investment_could_speed_hunts_journeys_1_1453958

 

[jon0844]

I am pretty sure he has been exaggerating somewhat! I would be surprised of he was even allowed in the cab of a moving train but there is no way he would be allowed to drive it!

Could it have been a simulator for driver training? Or perhaps in a depot?

If I was a train operating company and had work experience people who seemed genuinely keen, I'd be doing my level best to show them as many things as possible - as that person might be a future driver/guard/engineer etc.

So, while driving a real train might not be a possibility, I'd certainly not see an issue with letting them in the cab on a moving train somewhere.

Far better than just using them to make tea or play around with the random timetable generator.

 

[D365]

I guess, I'm not sure how exactly it worked. I look forward to seeing the ECML upgrades take shape. I've managed to see the new Huntingdon station footbridge (with lifts) being installed, along with an extra shelter on the up slow to Peterborough.

 

[jon0844]

I'm looking forward to the improvements at Hatfield, which should begin after the Olympics and be completed by the end of 2013.

 

[tbtc]

The IC225s may even get a chance to run at 140mph in regular service. Sounds good for the ECML: http://www.huntspost.co.uk/news/latest-news/rail_investment_could_speed_hunts_journeys_1_1453958

I can't see 140mph any time soon, given how scarce paths are on sections of the ECML and a 140mph 225 would easily catch up the service in front.

Higher speeds only really work on fully segregated lines (hence my backing for HS2).

 

[GNER 91128]

I can't see 140mph any time soon, given how scarce paths are on sections of the ECML and a 140mph 225 would easily catch up the service in front.

Higher speeds only really work on fully segregated lines (hence my backing for HS2).

But there's not much slow traffic North of PBO and with the 4 tracking to Huntingdon there could be some scope to 140mph running surely?

 

[Aictos]

I very much doubt that I will see 140mph speeds on the existing mainlines but rather instead have 140mph speeds on fully segregated lines such as HS2, HS3, HS4 etc....

I'm quite contend with 125mph, thank you very much!

 

[tbtc]

But there's not much slow traffic North of PBO and with the 4 tracking to Huntingdon there could be some scope to 140mph running surely?

For example there's the 90mph EMT 158s crossing on flat junctions between Peterborough and Grantham, there's the Newark crossover where 75mph EMT 156s cross at a flat junction, there's various conflicting movements at Doncaster (with services from Sheffield to Hull/ Cleethorpes/ Scunthorpe crossing the ECML on the flat)...

To make the investment in 140mph running you'd need to run at that speed for quite long distances.

 

[D365]

Hitchin to Peterborough might be possible, since the only other passenger traffic by that time will be Thameslink and peak services into KGX. Biggleswade and St. Neots fast platforms can be closed off without too much pain, and the aforementioned upgrade of Huntingdon-Peterborough will help the case.

Unless 140mph is not permissible on track with level crossings.

 

[A-driver]

Hitchin to Peterborough might be possible, since the only other passenger traffic by that time will be Thameslink and peak services into KGX. Biggleswade and St. Neots fast platforms can be closed off without too much pain, and the aforementioned upgrade of Huntingdon-Peterborough will help the case.

Unless 140mph is not permissible on track with level crossings.

What's this obsession with closing the fast platforms off people have on here? You would end up extending the fast services by running them on the slows if you did that. Given the acceleration of a 365 compared to EC stock the stops on the fast line don't cause much of a hold up, if any.

 

[Retorus]

What's this obsession with closing the fast platforms off people have on here? You would end up extending the fast services by running them on the slows if you did that. Given the acceleration of a 365 compared to EC stock the stops on the fast line don't cause much of a hold up, if any.

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[GNER 91128]

Hitchin Flyover

 

[D365]

I thought that any fast platforms would have to be closed, or at least gated up, to allow 140mph running.

Anyhow, my father was telling me that he saw the Hitchin flyover in place. I love that photo above!

 

[Retorus]

Does anyone know roughly when the platform extensions on the southern ECML are due for completion?

 

[Aictos]

Does anyone know roughly when the platform extensions on the southern ECML are due for completion?

I'm not sure however the work at Sandy looks pretty much completed - The current plan as far as I know is to have the platforms ready for the Dec 2012 timetable changeover.