• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

ECML Signalling Systems Failure in the Newark area (06/03/2024)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Twingo37175

Member
Joined
24 Mar 2019
Messages
104
What happened to 1N93?

Started Kings Cross 26 down, passed Hornsey bang on time, passed Peterborough 131 mins late (fair enough) and got no report between Grantham and Doncaster (could it have gone via Spalding?)

Looks like it went back South from Grantham, to then pick up the joint (Spalding) line. Hence reappearing at Doncaster
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

harz99

Member
Joined
14 Jul 2009
Messages
732
Looks like it went back South from Grantham, to then pick up the joint (Spalding) line. Hence reappearing at Doncaster
I believe the next GC departure to Sunderland actually arrived at its destination before 1N93, not a happy day for GC passengers at all, nor for anyone else unlucky enough to be caught up in the disruption.
 

trebor79

Established Member
Joined
8 Mar 2018
Messages
4,452
Was just going to see. Seems to be a very common thing in this area now... Surely with the scale of delays worth focussing some resources into catching em.

In fairness they probably already have, hence the slight change in location. Needle in a haystack sort of situation.
Ah, I guess they still burn it in the triangle of land between the bypass, sugar factory and Lincoln-Nottingham line. Used to have to go out there to clean a river water inlet to the factory and we'd always go in two's, partly because it was odds on you'd disturb some not very nice people burning insulation off stolen cable...
 

Ediswan

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2012
Messages
2,858
Location
Stevenage
At one time, the railway used to spray the cable with smart water, so you could tell who had handled it. There were supposed to be regular checks on the scrap merchants to see if they were handling any unauthorised materials and ensure all transactions were traceable (not in cash) LOL. Then the thieves would set fire to the cable to burn off the rubber sheath.
Thieves were burning the insulation off cable long before smart water was invented.
 

Class 800

Member
Joined
5 Aug 2023
Messages
51
Location
London
I presume ETCS will reduce / remove all these problems. With Eurobalises being unpowered and everything else over GSM-R / wirelessly, there will be nothing to steal.

But I agree that LNER (and the wider industry) should call a spade a spade - "this is due to the theft of signalling cables".
It was not a fault, it was the deliberate malicious actions of criminals. Neither the TOC nor Network Rail are to blame, and the public should be told clearly who is.
If the thousands of people disrupted know it was due to the selfish actions of a few, there may be more appetite to do something about it.
 

norbitonflyer

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2020
Messages
2,399
Location
SW London
Looks like it went back South from Grantham, to then pick up the joint (Spalding) line. Hence reappearing at Doncaster
It could perhaps have gone via Honington to pick up the joint line at Sleaford?
That would have required 180s to be cleared for that line, and route knowledge. And a reversal at Sleaford.
Which way round is the unit now?

Although if it had I would have expected a time at Nottingham Branch Junction
 

800001

Established Member
Joined
24 Oct 2015
Messages
3,577
It could perhaps have gone via Honington to pick up the joint line at Sleaford?
That would have required 180s to be cleared for that line, and route knowledge. And a reversal at Sleaford.
Which way round is the unit now?

Although if it had I would have expected a time at Nottingham Branch Junction
It went back to Peterborough from Grantham and then went via the full joint line to Doncaster.
 

zwk500

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Jan 2020
Messages
13,403
Location
Bristol
I presume ETCS will reduce / remove all these problems. With Eurobalises being unpowered and everything else over GSM-R / wirelessly, there will be nothing to steal.
It will reduce the problem, but there will still be a requirement to power some of the equipment (points motors, axle counters etc), and thieves are not always 100% accurate on the nature of the cables they are stealing so there will still be disruption when fibre is cut by thieves looking for copper.
 

DerekC

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2015
Messages
2,119
Location
Hampshire (nearly a Hog)
It doesn't, I guess that will be a big in for the digital signalling. No need to get power to these lineside signals. Although as I said on my previous post, it is also very concerning they can can get money for the cable - no questions asked. When I have sold copper to scrap dealers they are wanting a lot of information about where I live, photo id etc. Which I thought was standard these days. This copper was old pipework from some DIY which is feasable that I would be getting rid of. I would expect lots more questions if I turned up with cable (That wasn't of the type you would find in your home)

I presume ETCS will reduce / remove all these problems. With Eurobalises being unpowered and everything else over GSM-R / wirelessly, there will be nothing to steal.
Unfortunately the industry (mostly Network Rail) hasn't worked out how to do without track circuits/axle counters, so there will still be some trackside cabling for these. They were talking about "ETCS Level 2 hybrid" which worked Level 3 style on plain track, but with long blocks based on axle counters as a backup for unfitted/failed trains. There will also need to be detection round junctions to do support the deadlocking/route locking functions. It is theoretically possible to do without that, but unlikely to be certifiable from a safety point of view as well as impacting performance. So still lots of cabling round junctions but (maybe) a lot less long runs on plain line.
 

mike57

Established Member
Joined
13 Mar 2015
Messages
1,679
Location
East coast of Yorkshire
Its been said before, but until the penalties act as deterrent this sort of criminal behaviour will continue.

Rather than trying to get soft politicians to take a firmer line maybe we should be encouraging prosecuters and judges to apply what we have in a different way.

Make sure every possible charge is laid and persued, including endangerment charges if these can be brought.
Hand out consecutive sentences for each charge so that scum bags suddendly find themselves looking at a very long total sentence.
Make sure that those who are involved further down the chain are also brought before the courts, those guilty of 'handling' etc. Again long sentences are in order.

Unless society as whole is prepared to deal harshly with those who seek to undermine it these sort of incidents will continue.

And just to be clear, those carrying out crimes like cable theft as well as those facilitating them know its against law so make sure the profit from the crime is not worth the time.

And for those who moan about overcrowded prisons, cram them in and lock them up, its not meant to be a holiday camp, if they dont like the prison environment that they land themselves in tough, dont do the crime.
 

LAX54

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2008
Messages
3,759
Yes the guys who have just replaced my water main were all dressed in orange. Seems to be the new norm!
The retro-reflective strips that adorn H-Viz are also indentical for everyone, maybe those who work on the railway need to have something of a different design
 

greyman42

Established Member
Joined
14 Aug 2017
Messages
4,947
And for those who moan about overcrowded prisons, cram them in and lock them up, its not meant to be a holiday camp, if they dont like the prison environment that they land themselves in tough, dont do the crime.
Well said.
 

norbitonflyer

Established Member
Joined
24 Mar 2020
Messages
2,399
Location
SW London
To quote WS Gilbert's "Mikado" - make the punishment fit the crime.
"I sentence you to 10,000 hours (one for each passenger affected) wedged in a standard class Azuma seat with no airconditioning or buffet"

" Or toilet".
 

nickswift99

Member
Joined
7 Apr 2013
Messages
273
To quote WS Gilbert's "Mikado" - make the punishment fit the crime.
"I sentence you to 10,000 hours (one for each passenger affected) wedged in a standard class Azuma seat with no airconditioning or buffet"

" Or toilet".
I believe there are a number of international treaties, including at least one Geneva convention, that would prohibit such a sentence on the grounds of it being either inhumane or torture (or both). Sadly, those rules only apply when a state does something to an individual, as opposed to a TOC.
 

Trainman40083

Member
Joined
29 Jan 2024
Messages
372
Location
Derby
What happened to 1N93?

Started Kings Cross 26 down, passed Hornsey bang on time, passed Peterborough 131 mins late (fair enough) and got no report between Grantham and Doncaster (could it have gone via Spalding?)

Went via Lincoln

Why are LNER still saying "fault with the signalling" and not just tell people that a load of vital cable was stolen. I am sure the ranting public might be a little more understanding if they knew the real cause was external interference from toerags?
I guess if they say cable theft, it might give others the idea. Just think, the more photographers at the side of the line, the more pairs of eyes watching for it
 

DerekC

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2015
Messages
2,119
Location
Hampshire (nearly a Hog)
To quote WS Gilbert's "Mikado" - make the punishment fit the crime.
"I sentence you to 10,000 hours (one for each passenger affected) wedged in a standard class Azuma seat with no airconditioning or buffet"

" Or toilet".
Or to put it in more Gilbertian language:

The idiot who, on railway property
Goes out and pilfers the cable
Our punishment clever
Is to fester for ever
In the toilet with aircon disabled
 

Elecman

Established Member
Joined
31 Dec 2013
Messages
2,906
Location
Lancashire
Or to put it in more Gilbertian language:

The idiot who, on railway property
Goes out and pilfers the cable
Our punishment clever
Is to fester for ever
In the toilet with aircon disabled
This needs a like button !!
 

GRALISTAIR

Established Member
Joined
11 Apr 2012
Messages
7,901
Location
Dalton GA USA & Preston Lancs
I guess if they say cable theft, it might give others the idea. Just think, the more photographers at the side of the line, the more pairs of eyes watching for it
Indeed. I know it has probably been done to death, but Rail Enthusiasts in general love the railway and do no harm. Spotting should be encouraged as it may deter cable theft and possibly even railway suicides.
 

Trestrol

Member
Joined
12 Apr 2022
Messages
207
Location
Newcastle
Newark is controlled by older style relay interlockings from the panel based Doncaster PSB. A local control panel is provided at Newark, which depending on the failure may be able to be switched in.
Yeah I was thinking of Hitchin, never was any good at geography. No sign of Digital Railway getting to Newark until after 2029 anyway.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,686
Location
Redcar
And for those who moan about overcrowded prisons, cram them in and lock them up, its not meant to be a holiday camp, if they dont like the prison environment that they land themselves in tough, dont do the crime.

How much worse would you like the conditions to be compared to now?

[...]

New figures show most prisons are now dangerously full with some holding 70 per cent more inmates than they should.

It comes as the chief inspector of prisons said this week that over one in ten jails should be closed down due to poor conditions and overcrowding – including Wandsworth, where ex-soldier Daniel Khalife is accused of escaping.

[...]

“Every room in your house is probably bigger. You could be in there for anything from 22 to 23 hours a day,” he said. “The toilet is in the same room, and there’s nothing to block it off. We used to say ‘you crap where you eat’ because you’re inches away from where you take your meals. Two lads, with your toilet, your sink, and your food in there for weeks or months speaks for itself.”

[...]


“There was no space to sit anywhere but our bunk beds. There was a desk in there but no space to sit on it or use it. Our toilet was in the shower in our cell, so you have to make sure you don’t turn the shower on when you’re using it. You just take a shower while you’re on it,” he said.

“We’re men. We fart, we poo, the smell is absolutely awful. There’s no privacy at all. You can’t speak to your family, you’re conscious of your inmate and if they’re not sleeping you can’t sleep and vice versa.”

Prison leavers also reported a lack of showers. Mr Trotter said there were often just four showers to share between 80 to 90 men, while Chris, who didn’t want his surname used, reported a similar scenario with 150 inmates sharing five showers.

The shortage was due to few working facilities and delayed repairs, according to Mr Trotter and Chris. They report problems with no running water and toilets not flushing in their cells, leaving unbearable smells.

“You have to stock up on toilet roll. I know someone who asked for some toilet roll and the prison guard told them ‘use your hand or a sock,’” said Chris.

[...]

Vulnerable prisoners in HMP Rochester were also experiencing poor conditions with Chris reporting that one 82-year-old inmate with a colostomy bag was having to reuse his bag for two days as there was no replacement.


[...]

“We are stuffed to the gunwales,” she said. “We are doing little more than warehousing people. The result is that we’re delivering really poor regimes in many of our prisons, with prisoners locked up for 22 hours a day. In a nutshell, it’s dangerous.

[...]

Just in the last fortnight, inspectors raised the alarm over the conditions in Bristol, now regarded as one of the unsafest prisons in the country. Eight men had killed themselves since the last inspection, while one had been charged with the murder of a cellmate. Emergency cell call bells often went unanswered, and the prison was found to be “violent and riddled with drugs”.


[...]

The report also described a “totally unacceptable” situation in which many thousands of prisoners find themselves forced to share cells designed to hold only one prisoner.

These were used as their “bedroom, dining room and lavatory” despite inadequately screened, dirty toilets without lids, it stated.

“How is it that in a prison, which is one place there is no shortage of labour to clean places up, can become so unhygienic?” Mr Clarke asked.

“The conditions are so terrible that staff seem to have lost the ability to recognise them as being good or being bad – it’s just become the norm.”

Despite the government’s ambition to improve training and education by getting inmates out of cells, many prisoners remain locked up in them for up to 22 hours a day.

One in five prisoners told inspectors they were out of their cells for less than two hours a day, while just 16 per cent were unlocked for more than 10 hours.

The report also highlighted the ready availability of drugs in too many prisons, with 13 per cent of prisoners acquiring a drug habit while they were detained. Mr Clarke said this was “shockingly high”.

[...]


[...]

Violence, drugs, suicide and self-harm, squalor and poor access to education were once again “prominent themes” in jails during the year to the end of March, said Peter Clarke, the chief inspector of prisons for England and Wales, in his annual report.

He singled out conditions at the rat-infested Liverpool prison as the worst that inspectors had ever seen, while the number of self-inflicted deaths at Nottingham jail had led him to label it “fundamentally unsafe”.

Mr Clarke highlighted how high levels of violence, drug use and suicide in prisons had followed funding cuts, which had been deeper for jails than almost any other field of public spending.

There were 29,000 assaults in prisons in England and Wales in 2017-18 — a 93 per cent increase since 2007-08. Over the same period, the number of incidents of self-harm rose 91 per cent to reach 44,000.

[...]



Segregation

3.34 The accommodation in the segregation unit was unfit for purpose. The unit consisted of two underground landings, one of which was flooded with sewage after periods of heavy rain. Sandbags and wellington boots were stored on the unit to help staff stem the tide and prisoners regularly had to be moved temporarily to other cells.

3.35 The condition of all the cells was poor. Most contained stained toilets with no seats and damp was a problem in some. Furniture was sparse and most of it was broken and some cells smelt of human effluent despite being cleaned. The communal areas on the unit were austere and cramped, although cleaner than most of the main wings.

Screenshot 2024-03-07 192155.png

[...]

Living conditions

4.5 There was considerable overcrowding, with almost three-quarters of the population living in cells that accommodated more prisoners than they were designed for. Several cells held groups of three prisoners, and, while these cells were slightly bigger, they were still too cramped for this number of prisoners.

4.6 The condition of cells varied, but too many were in poor condition and some were not fit for purpose with mould and broken windows. At the time of the inspection, more than 100 repair jobs were outstanding and not all work that was needed had been reported. Extensive graffiti in cells across the prison went unchallenged by staff and leaders. A programme to paint and decorate cells was often not operating because of staff shortages. There had been poor oversight of living conditions which leaders had tried during November 2023 to remedy with a tracking document.

Screenshot 2024-03-07 192413.png

4.7 Leaders and staff had not set and maintained sufficiently high standards of cleanliness. The wings were dirty and, in our survey, only 42% of prisoners said the communal areas were normally clean, compared with 70% at our last inspection and 66% at similar prisons. Our observations corroborated this. The frequent curtailments to the regime (see paragraph 5.3) and ineffective use of available staff resulted in too few cleaners being unlocked to clean.

4.8 There was a widespread infestation of rats, cockroaches and pigeons. Professional pest control services had been engaged and outside areas were reasonably clean. However, the unhygienic conditions on the residential wings and the difficulty of treating the residential areas meant that prisoners regularly saw vermin and had resorted to creating their own barriers to prevent vermin from coming into their cells.

Screenshot 2024-03-07 192539.png

[...]

5.1 Time out of cell was very poor and many prisoners received as little as an hour a day unlocked. The system for allocating prisoners to activities was inadequate, there was low attendance and frequent cancellations. About half the population was allocated to an activity but only about half of those attended.

5.2 In our roll checks, only 25% of prisoners were engaged in purposeful activity during the core working day and 45% were locked up.

5.3 There were frequent curtailments to the regime. During the last month, wings had been placed on restricted regime almost every day and units were not unlocked at all for part of the day. Leaders also frequently shut down activity areas such as the gym, education and library. On rare occasions, visits and health clinics were also cancelled. In our survey, only 21% of prisoners said that unlock times were usually adhered to compared with 50% in similar prisons.


Now I will confess that I've never been to Butlins but I'm not sure that our prisons are a "holiday camp" nor anything approaching the like. I'm also extremely unclear on why further overcrowding the prison estate, which is already overcrowded, would achieve anything at all other than increase the number of prisoners harming themselves, harming their fellow inmates, harming prison officers, killing themselves, their fellow inmates and potentially prison officers. How it would achieve anything other than to ensure that even more broken people emerge from our prisons with absolutely no attempt at rehabilitation, attempting to give them some sort of prospect of re-integrating into society so that they might actually avoid committing further crimes in the future. Quite apart from the vast costs that this would incur to a system which is already chronically underfunded. But I guess it might give some people a nice warm glow of satisfaction that a bunch of broken people are being brutalised? I certainly don't see how it would deliver justice nor do anything for crime rates.
 

notverydeep

Member
Joined
9 Feb 2014
Messages
878
Now I will confess that I've never been to Butlins but I'm not sure that our prisons are a "holiday camp" nor anything approaching the like. I'm also extremely unclear on why further overcrowding the prison estate, which is already overcrowded, would achieve anything at all other than increase the number of prisoners harming themselves, harming their fellow inmates, harming prison officers, killing themselves, their fellow inmates and potentially prison officers. How it would achieve anything other than to ensure that even more broken people emerge from our prisons with absolutely no attempt at rehabilitation, attempting to give them some sort of prospect of re-integrating into society so that they might actually avoid committing further crimes in the future. Quite apart from the vast costs that this would incur to a system which is already chronically underfunded. But I guess it might give some people a nice warm glow of satisfaction that a bunch of broken people are being brutalised? I certainly don't see how it would deliver justice nor do anything for crime rates.

Absolutely! The solution (for which the rail industry is / should be lobbying) is further tightening regulation of the handling of scrap metals and their processing, to prevent stolen cables / metals being laundered by unscrupulous scrap businesses. This would reduce the thieves' profits and thus incentives and is likely to save far more delay over the longer term than a few additional prison sentences. The evidence for the effectiveness of prison as a deterrent in is extremely poor. The US has far higher prison occupancy as a proportion of the population and a far higher crime rate. Ironically this has never been summed up better than by the then Conservative (Thatcher) Government in 1990 in a White Paper which described prison as "An expensive way of making bad people worse"...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top