Edinburgh Tour Operators: Bright Bus, Lothian (Majestic, Three Bridges) etc.

[In Focus]

Perhaps the news due from First Group tomorrow will give us all a clue as to how much funding they will have available for any similar innovations in the future.

Wouldn't think so ....

 

[In Focus]

While Lothian could take the buses down in price, and beat First, then have first do same and lothian; what is stopping Lothian from using its network for an advantage. For every tour ticket at £10, £11, £12, you get a free daysaver ticket too. So, people would have a choice of £10 on first, or similar with Lothian, and a free day ticket. Puts the ball back in the corner of First. Could they go sub £6?. It would not really cost Lothian much more to do this in the grand scheme of things, but it's something First could not do.

For every tour ticket you get a cheap day return to Livingston or a cheap family ticket,designer outlet popular with holiday makers , cheap day return to Linlithgow, both companies can play that card .

 

[In Focus]

So it seems First UK bus is up for sale ,that may be a game changer in the whole debate . (Sorry I know there is a thread for it ) we have had here .

 

[overthewater]

I don't think so. Jarvis would have know something was coming, However it would seem whatever he was told, it made he think he should continue to fight.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I don't think so. Jarvis would have know something was coming, However it would seem whatever he was told, it made he think he should continue to fight.

So it seems First UK bus is up for sale ,that may be a game changer in the whole debate . (Sorry I know there is a thread for it ) we have had here .

Agree with OTW. Andrew Jarvis will not have embarked on this venture without having the approval of the UK Bus board (and probably the main BOD) who will have been in full knowledge of what was going on.

 

[Robertj21a]

Wouldn't think so ....

Oh, I would. No guarantee it will remain as First Group longer term

 

[In Focus]

Oh, I would. No guarantee it will remain as First Group longer term

Not sure that has any relevance on wht you said about funding though.
As has been said it would be strange if Mr Jarvis hadn't been to group for go ahead with this .

 

[In Focus]

Oh, I would. No guarantee it will remain as First Group longer term

There are very few guarantees in life , I read it as being First UK bus being separated from American side of the company .phrases such as "pursue structural alternatives " , "continued progression" dont lean towards immediate sale (of course every opco has a price bit that's always been the case .

 

[winston270twm]

Not sure that has any relevance on wht you said about funding though.
As has been said it would be strange if Mr Jarvis hadn't been to group for go ahead with this .

Whilst phase one i.e. setting up Edinburgh Tours Op will have already been sanctioned by the BOD, depending on Lothian / LCB's response, I'm not so sure the BOD will allow further tranches of funding of significance to put towards a fight with Lothian, especially as the future of the whole First UK Bus op is now uncertain.

 

[In Focus]

Whilst phase one i.e. setting up Edinburgh Tours Op will have already been sanctioned by the BOD, depending on Lothian / LCB's response, I'm not so sure the BOD will allow further tranches of funding of significance to put towards a fight with Lothian, especially as the future of the whole First UK Bus op is now uncertain.

You may be correct, but let's be honest you don't really know , it's certainly a valid opinion though.

 

[winston270twm]

You may be correct, but let's be honest you don't really know , it's certainly a valid opinion though.

Know one knows but the board at present, but with all the uncertainty now surrounding First UK bus, would you pump loads of money in to fighting a bus war for a business unit that could yet be being sold off ??

 

[In Focus]

Know one knows but the board at present, but with all the uncertainty now surrounding First UK bus, would you pump loads of money in to fighting a bus war for a business unit that could yet be being sold off ??

What's worth more a business making money or one just withering away?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Know one knows but the board at present, but with all the uncertainty now surrounding First UK bus, would you pump loads of money in to fighting a bus war for a business unit that could yet be being sold off ??

Mr Jarvis will have had the go ahead for this venture. Were there to be any further developments, that would be the same irrespective of what happens.

More fag packet maths (not included discounts/concessions etc for clarity):

Total investment in this operation (let's say 12 vehicles = £1.5m cost)
They get revenue of £1m (that's 100k passengers so on 360 days p.a. it's about 275 a day or about 5 per journey on average)
First lose £500k

Lothian have a choice. They lose 100k passengers - that's £1.6m revenue they've lost whilst costs remain the same.

That's the sort of equation that they are hoping (but no guarantee of success) that they hope will influence Lothian to reconsider their West Lothian foray. For First, if they don't make this stand, what happens next? Stagecoach decide to operate commercially in Bristol? GSC expand into Solent? They probably feel strategically that it's a battle they have to have.

 

[overthewater]

Also if First can prove its up for a fight against one of the best it might keep the other wolves at bay....

 

[winston270twm]

What's worth more a business making money or one just withering away?

Profits have already fallen to £535k (pre-tax profit) on £8.8 million turnover by 31st March 2018, from £982k (pre-tax) on £9.7 million turnover the year before, that was before LCB started up. It's most likely near break even or even loss making by now.

 

[winston270twm]

Mr Jarvis will have had the go ahead for this venture. Were there to be any further developments, that would be the same irrespective of what happens.

More fag packet maths (not included discounts/concessions etc for clarity):

Total investment in this operation (let's say 12 vehicles = £1.5m cost)
They get revenue of £1m (that's 100k passengers so on 360 days p.a. it's about 275 a day or about 5 per journey on average)
First lose £500k

Lothian have a choice. They lose 100k passengers - that's £1.6m revenue they've lost whilst costs remain the same.

That's the sort of equation that they are hoping (but no guarantee of success) that they hope will influence Lothian to reconsider their West Lothian foray. For First, if they don't make this stand, what happens next? Stagecoach decide to operate commercially in Bristol? GSC expand into Solent? They probably feel strategically that it's a battle they have to have.

Or just sell out to Lothian if they can secure a decent asking price, no point keep throwing money at it for ever & day, as has been said numerous time, Livingston isn't exactly prime bus operating territory, profits were on the decline anyway.

 

[In Focus]

Profits have already fallen to £535k (pre-tax profit) on £8.8 million turnover by 31st March 2018, from £982k (pre-tax) on £9.7 million turnover the year before, that was before LCB started up. It's most likely near break even or even loss making by now.

As has been stated both companies will be losing money now ,not enough trade in West Lothian for 2 large companies, wait until you see LCB figures, once they get around to it ,if its not eye popping with set up costs etc I'd say someone's good with numbers!!

 

[In Focus]

Profits have already fallen to £535k (pre-tax profit) on £8.8 million turnover by 31st March 2018, from £982k (pre-tax) on £9.7 million turnover the year before, that was before LCB started up. It's most likely near break even or even loss making by now.

Any reduction First now have in West Lothian figures will soon be propped up by Edinburgh booming tourist trade so I'd say not to worry to much about figures just yet.

 

[overthewater]

First profits in WL have been all over the place for the past 10 years. Hence why its two separate account for First Scotland East.

 

[winston270twm]

As has been stated both companies will be losing money now ,not enough trade in West Lothian for 2 large companies, wait until you see LCB figures, once they get around to it ,if its not eye popping with set up costs etc I'd say someone's good with numbers!!

Exactly, one or other will have to back down / sell out eventually, it's not sustainable.

 

[Robertj21a]

Any reduction First now have in West Lothian figures will soon be propped up by Edinburgh booming tourist trade so I'd say not to worry to much about figures just yet.

Presumably First will have quite a lot of start up costs if the tours are to be run properly. Good quality drivers and a massive publicity campaign can cost a fair bit (I realise that the buses won't cost much).

 

[In Focus]

Presumably First will have quite a lot of start up costs if the tours are to be run properly. Good quality drivers and a massive publicity campaign can cost a fair bit (I realise that the buses won't cost much).

Come on your not seriously comparing starting this venture and potential return to LCB costs in West Lothian?

 

[winston270twm]

Come on your not seriously comparing starting this venture and potential return to LCB costs in West Lothian?

No - he's referring to the Edinburgh Tours setup costs impacting First Scotland East Limited profitability, it's not as clear cut as the new venture simply replacing any lost revenue in Livingston. There's no reference to LCB at all.

 

[In Focus]

No - he's referring to the Edinburgh Tours setup costs impacting First Scotland East Limited profitability, it's not as clear cut as the new venture simply replacing any lost revenue in Livingston. There's no reference to LCB at all.

Set up costs will be minimal in comparison to the potential profits .
Unlike other ventures where set up costs far outweigh potential profits .

 

[Robertj21a]

Come on your not seriously comparing starting this venture and potential return to LCB costs in West Lothian?

I made a statement, nothing more.

There was no reference to LCB or West Lothian.

 

[Andyh82]

Hmmm... how many tourists are going to want a daysaver? At the end of the day, the end result is that if they drop to £10, they are going to lose a lot of revenue.

Fag packet maths: If they’re turning over £5m on that main tour, and they drop to £10 a head, they’ll be losing >£1.5m in revenue. That is certainly what First will be hoping for.

A weeks travel on tour buses and return on Airlink?

£16 x 5 = £80 Two weeks is £160
£7.50 Open Return

First would love this idea!, no tourist give two monkey about Eco System there just traveled on a plane..

I don’t know why you are rubbishing those ideas

Dublin Bus offer joint Airlink and 2 day tour bus tickets at Dublin Airport

Many areas (York is one) allow tour bus ticket holders free travel on local buses in the same area. Bear in mind many tourists won’t necessarily be staying in the centre, so will use some form of transport to get into the city.

 

[overthewater]

The idea wasnt for 2 days.... it was for 7 days..... £30 already gets you 2 day tours and return trip to the Airport..

 

[overthewater]

Lothian are after more money: http://www.gardeningscotland.com/travel-packages/

 

[Cesarcollie]

Lothian are after more money: http://www.gardeningscotland.com/travel-packages/

Isn’t that what businesses are supposed to do? Sell things to make a profit? Sold out according to the link so clearly an astute venture in this case......!

 

[overthewater]

PM0000923/347 Registered
FIRST SCOTLAND EAST LDT
Route: Waverly Bridge, Edinburgh to Market Street, Edinburgh via Lothian Road, Chamber Street, Regent Road
Service number: A1 ()
Service type: Limited Stop
Effective date: 01 Jul 2019