Edinburgh Tram developments

[Chrism20]

Potential issue with weekend working looming.

Tram workers could be balloted for strike action over shift changes, union officials have confirmed.

Unite said its members were "deeply unhappy" about proposals to make rota changes and it would be meeting shop stewards to plan their next step.

Tram officials said the proposed changes would affect some drivers.

Extra tram demand is anticipated with the Edinburgh Gateway station opening, expansion at Edinburgh Airport and the introduction of Sunday parking charges.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/37923860?client=safari

 

[Butts]

Potential issue with weekend working looking.



https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/37923860?client=safari

That would be simply sorted fire all the Conductors give the drivers a pay rise and introduce random ticket checks like every other tram operator in the UK.

 

[Zoidberg]

Well you must be a youngster because your own area has being doing it far longer than Edinburgh.

It must be over 20 years for West Midlands Travel and all it's successors

Young? I only wish I could use my old fogey's concession pass when I return to my homeland.

And the Arriva bus services around here do not operate "exact fare" with frequently excessive dwells at stops while the driver tries to sort out change for folk who need it.

 

[Chrism20]

That would be simply sorted fire all the Conductors give the drivers a pay rise and introduce random ticket checks like every other tram operator in the UK.

Not quite them all, Blackpool still have conductors although for large parts of the year they are definitely required on the Fylde coast plus they actually will sell you a fare.

Other than the ticket checking I've noticed that the conductors answer a lot of questions such as "Whats the best stop for?" and so on. I've never been on one yet where someone hasn't tested the knowledge of the conductor so they do have their uses rather than hold up a driver to ask them like what happens on the buses.

 

[dcsprior]

Personally i think that this exact fare no change policy on buses sounds absoulutely terrible. You cant expect people to always have the exact fare on them. Why should they have to overpay. I am surprised that this is even legal. You wouldnt get shops or trains doing this so why should buses or trams. I have been on buses in very busy cities and towns and they dont seem to have any problem or much delay with giving change. I personally think that the real reason is to scam passengers in to paying extra.

I'm not originally from Edinburgh, and when I first started to regularly use buses here about 15 years ago I thought it was a terrible idea - though actually thinking about it, my opinion may have more been because of the very strange system whereby passengers told the driver which of the 3(?) fares their stop was (based on the different colours on the route map at the stop - or of course memory for a regular journey).

Anyway, now it seems a perfectly sensible and normal way of doing things - in fact when London removed the ability to pay cash on its buses recently I wondered why they didn't instead still accept cash but without change, giving many of the same benefits.

I don't mind apps for this but again I dont agree to the fact that I believe the App for the Edinburgh trams has a minimum spend of £10.00 I believe. Although it has been awhile since I last looked at it so correct me if I am wrong. So if you are there for a few days then fair enough but if you are only going for one day it is again no use.

Yes, the new payment options aren't great for very infrequent users. In addition to the minimum purchase via the app, they replaced a way of pre-buying single tickets which didn't expire (books of paper tickets to be placed in the hopper) with a smartcard which expires 180 days after last topup. I'm unsure if the app credit also expires?

What would be genuinely useful would be on-bus acceptance of contactless, similar to TfL bus services. I responded to an online consultation some time ago saying this.

 

[oldman]

... the very strange system whereby passengers told the driver which of the 3(?) fares their stop was...

Not a city boy, then . Asking for fares by price was normal decades ago in many if not most cities - I got a twopenny scholar to school. Exact fare was in use in Edinburgh in the 1970s, with multiples of 5p.

 

[dcsprior]

Not a city boy, then . Asking for fares by price was normal decades ago in many if not most cities - I got a twopenny scholar to school. Exact fare was in use in Edinburgh in the 1970s, with multiples of 5p.

I wouldn't consider myself to be one, but I guess I technically was as I grew up just outside Stirling, which became a city in 2002 just before I moved to Edinburgh

BTW the norm there was to tell the driver your destination, they'd then tell you how much it cost.

 

[PaulLothian]

Not a city boy, then . Asking for fares by price was normal decades ago in many if not most cities - I got a twopenny scholar to school. Exact fare was in use in Edinburgh in the 1970s, with multiples of 5p.

Sixpence in old money for the minimum fare when I first used Edinburgh buses in 1970. They did give change, though. Students tended to prefer using the OMO buses - easier to travel a few stops over without a clippie breathing down your neck! It was also easy enough to claim you were confused by the fare stage structure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not a city boy, then . Asking for fares by price was normal decades ago in many if not most cities - I got a twopenny scholar to school. Exact fare was in use in Edinburgh in the 1970s, with multiples of 5p.

Was certainly the norm in Manchester in the 1990s. When the fares eventually went up (as a late 1990s student) you got the oddity of there being effectively a product called "40 please" that cost 45p.

 

[ejstubbs]

In addition to the minimum purchase via the app, they replaced a way of pre-buying single tickets which didn't expire (books of paper tickets to be placed in the hopper) with a smartcard which expires 180 days after last topup. I'm unsure if the app credit also expires?

Yes it does. It's happened to me once, although they did agree to re-instate my expired tickets when I explained the particular circumstances around my inability to use them.

They subsequently updated the app so that you can't buy tickets on a rooted phone, making useless to me ad:

What would be genuinely useful would be on-bus acceptance of contactless, similar to TfL bus services. I responded to an online consultation some time ago saying this.

I wish I'd seen that consultation. It seems an obvious way to go, given that they already have contactless card readers in the cab for Ridacards, CitySmart and the over-60s cards. (Admittedly that assumes that the current card readers can actually transact with a contactless payment card.)

Other than the ticket checking I've noticed that the conductors answer a lot of questions such as "Whats the best stop for?" and so on. I've never been on one yet where someone hasn't tested the knowledge of the conductor so they do have their uses rather than hold up a driver to ask them like what happens on the buses.

Lothian Buses must put their drivers through extensive training to develop the level of patience they display when dealing with some of the people who seem to treat them as mobile tourist information services! Meanwhile, during the evening peak period, you have a bus full of tired workers who just want to get home all gently seething and nurturing an uncharitable hatred for the poor confused visitor to our city.

The absolute pinnacle of this in my experience was when a driver spent several minutes patiently explaining which stop the person needed, and which bus to get, while we were stationary at the stop on Hanover Street within falling over distance of the Lothian Buses tickets & information shop :mad:

 

[90019]

I wish I'd seen that consultation. It seems an obvious way to go, given that they already have contactless card readers in the cab for Ridacards, CitySmart and the over-60s cards. (Admittedly that assumes that the current card readers can actually transact with a contactless payment card.)

The readers can definitely detect contactless cards at least, but the problem would be the Wayfarers which already have too much added onto them and are getting old and unreliable.
However, I believe they're due to be replaced next year, so maybe contactless will be looked at at the same time.

Lothian Buses must put their drivers through extensive training to develop the level of patience they display when dealing with some of the people who seem to treat them as mobile tourist information services! Meanwhile, during the evening peak period, you have a bus full of tired workers who just want to get home all gently seething and nurturing an uncharitable hatred for the poor confused visitor to our city.

We usually feel the same towards them as you do, and will do our best to get rid of them without being rude. Some drivers definitely have more patience than others though.

 

[GodAtum]

Why cant they do what TFL do and not use cash at all?

 

[Zoidberg]

Why cant they do what TFL do and not use cash at all?

That'd benefit no one apart from the bus operator which would not have the inconvenience of having to "cash up" at the end of the day.

 

[GodAtum]

That'd benefit no one apart from the bus operator which would not have the inconvenience of having to "cash up" at the end of the day.

For some reason TFL (which i guess is the biggest operator in the country) decided it was a good idea, so playing devils advocate, maybe it is?

 

[Zoidberg]

For some reason TFL (which i guess is the biggest operator in the country) decided it was a good idea, so playing devils advocate, maybe it is?

I visit Edinburgh about six times a year and while there am a frequent user of the buses. I'd not want to be forced to carry some sort of smartcard or have to purchase a ticket before boarding (like for the trams) to use the buses. Making sure I have £1.60 or £4.00 available before boarding suits me fine.

Perhaps different for residents of the city who are daily users of bus and tram services since I don't imagine many will be cash fare purchasers, using season tickets etc..

I think it's one of those "if it's not broken, don't fix it" situations.

 

[Altfish]

I visit Edinburgh about six times a year and while there am a frequent user of the buses. I'd not want to be forced to carry some sort of smartcard or have to purchase a ticket before boarding (like for the trams) to use the buses. Making sure I have £1.60 or £4.00 available before boarding suits me fine.

Perhaps different for residents of the city who are daily users of bus and tram services since I don't imagine many will be cash fare purchasers, using season tickets etc..

I think it's one of those "if it's not broken, don't fix it" situations.

Nowadays your standard debit or credit card will do.

 

[Zoidberg]

Nowadays your standard debit or credit card will do.

I take it that you are referring to "contactless" technology. Not sure I'd like to be using my cards frequently for bus fares. I think it'd be rather difficult to keep track of spending and to check the validity of charges appearring on statements.

At least with Oyster there is online Journey History and charges available.

 

[button_boxer]

At least with Oyster there is online Journey History and charges available.

There's online journey history available for contactless cards on TfL just the same as with Oyster.

Exact fare only or cashless systems reduce dwell times and are far better for the drivers who don't have to worry about getting mugged at a remote terminus or being held responsible for shortages when they cash up.

 

[Zoidberg]

There's online journey history available for contactless cards on TfL just the same as with Oyster.

Exact fare only or cashless systems reduce dwell times and are far better for the drivers who don't have to worry about getting mugged at a remote terminus or being held responsible for shortages when they cash up.

Exact Fare is fine. In Edinburgh I notice little or no difference in the time taken to drop the right change in the hopper and receive a ticket and that of folk who present their passes to the reader.

 

[swt class 450]

I have never been on an exact fare bus so i am not too familiar with it but whether or not it works i highly doubt that any passengers are happy with it. It sounds like a big inconvinience for passengers (especially for those who are not from the area). I sometimes do a bit of part time work for a small independent bus operator and if we didnt give change i know there would be lots of chaos and unhappy passengers.

I think the fact that TFL bus operators dont accept cash any more is just as bad as the exact fare policy. I live near Dorking and because of this i can no longer use the 465 bus if i need to. I dont have an Oyster card and (maybe i am old fashioned) i dont like paying for things using debit or credit cards (cash is my preferred method). I also think that TFL are loosing money because of this. I have two mates that work for London Buses (one for Abellio London and one for Arriva London) who both tell me that they have to let around five to ten passengers a day on for free because they try to pay with cash.

Going back to the point about the TVMs i dont think that Edinburgh Trams can have any excuse for exact fare TVMs. I cant see any advantages of this. All i can see is lots of disadvantages.

 

[jopsuk]

five to ten "free" passengers per driver shift probably loses less money than the money saved by going cashless.

 

[MCR247]

I live in Nottingham and exact fare is no issue. £2.00 single, £3.50 all day ticket, what issue is there? Pay as you go smartcard if you don't like cash, mobile ticketing and contactless cards on the way so even better

 

[TheDavibob]

I have never been on an exact fare bus so i am not too familiar with it but whether or not it works i highly doubt that any passengers are happy with it. It sounds like a big inconvinience for passengers (especially for those who are not from the area). I sometimes do a bit of part time work for a small independent bus operator and if we didnt give change i know there would be lots of chaos and unhappy passengers.

Yes, exact fair is a large chunk of the reason I don't like using buses. I'd much rather use a bus if I was visiting London than figure out payment and the like at home.

 

[Deerfold]

I have never been on an exact fare bus so i am not too familiar with it but whether or not it works i highly doubt that any passengers are happy with it. It sounds like a big inconvinience for passengers (especially for those who are not from the area). I sometimes do a bit of part time work for a small independent bus operator and if we didnt give change i know there would be lots of chaos and unhappy passengers.

I used to live in Nottingham with exact fare on NCT. Now I live in Yorkshire where we do not have exact fare. I'd love exact fare (so long as fares were easier to find out) as we sit as the driver tries to find change from another tenner. Boarding is so much quicker with exact fare.

 

[Butts]

I used to live in Nottingham with exact fare on NCT. Now I live in Yorkshire where we do not have exact fare. I'd love exact fare (so long as fares were easier to find out) as we sit as the driver tries to find change from another tenner. Boarding is so much quicker with exact fare.

It is almost impossible to implement exact fare outwith cities or metropolitan areas where a "flat fare" exists that is only a couple of quid or less.

Is there any area of the country where exact fare exists when the variable amount could be say £3.50, £4.60, or £2.80 for example ?

 

[gsnedders]

Is there any area of the country where exact fare exists when the variable amount could be say £3.50, £4.60, or £2.80 for example ?

Plenty of First Glasgow buses; they have a "short hop" fare (totally undefined how far that is nowadays, previously defined as "typically"…), a "longer hop" fare, and then a "suburban" fare if you're going outside what they call the "city" (this doesn't really match up to anything!). All have at least the first two fares. Return tickets are even more complicated, because the suburban fares then start to vary depending on where they're going, from memory.

 

[Deerfold]

It is almost impossible to implement exact fare outwith cities or metropolitan areas where a "flat fare" exists that is only a couple of quid or less.

Is there any area of the country where exact fare exists when the variable amount could be say £3.50, £4.60, or £2.80 for example ?

I lived in Nottingham before they had a flat fare. It seemed to cause very few problems.

So long as it's easy to find out what the variable amount is, I don't see why it's a problem.

 

[Robertj21a]

The sooner we get more 'off-bus' tickets/cards/smart phones - and contactless for 'on-bus' the better.

 

[oldman]

Service frequency increased yesterday without much fanfare or prior announcement:

The enhanced service pattern will see trams running from every 7 minutes during the daytime throughout the week and from every 10 minutes after 7pm in the evenings.

Source

 

[Butts]

Service frequency increased yesterday without much fanfare or prior announcement:



Source

And it was running on New Years Day so I was able to get to the Airport, pick up my hire car and get home from work