Electrification & Rolling Stock Cascade Impact Review

[YorkshireBear]

Quite the opposite, im assuming change but we have no idea what that change will be so we cant quantify the stock released. i.e. we cant extrapolate from todays service patterns.

Was not aimed at you :P Sorry if it seemed like it was.

 

[thealexweb]

We dont really know what it frees up though, as apart from some Wigan-Victoria shuttles theres no current routes that could just be converted as they either start in Southport/Kirkby or go via Atherton. The press release mentions airport services being converted but there is currently no service that starts at Wigan and goes to the Airport as it originates in Southport (and TPE Airports are already electric via Chat Moss).

As you mention, there are 2tph from Wigan Wallgate to Manchester Victoria via Bolton at the moment. These could easily change to Wigan North Western. So that frees up four DMUs at least maybe?

 

[WatcherZero]

I think its just a case of they decided to infill as a diversionary route for the Bolton line/TPE and as it was only a short stretch without really putting much thought into service patterns :P

Would be ideal if they had spare electrics for things like the extra Christmas shuttles each year though, and for sporting specials.

 

[thealexweb]

I think its just a case of they decided to infill as a diversionary route for the Bolton line/TPE and as it was only a short stretch without really putting much thought into service patterns :P

Would be ideal if they had spare electrics for things like the extra Christmas shuttles each year though, and for sporting specials.

They should ensure electrification is put in place between Manchester and the North East via Rochdale to provide future EMU transpennine services an alternative route.

 

[Class377/5]

Tony Miles (Modern Railways) has stated on a post on WNXX that the 317 aren't going to Northern as they were offered at a higher price than expected.

Meanwhile the deal that could see the 319 beading north means Northern wont do any work on the units with the next franchisee expected to that, ie start work in mid 2016.

 

[northwichcat]

Tony Miles (Modern Railways) has stated on a post on WNXX that the 317 aren't going to Northern as they were offered at a higher price than expected.

Meanwhile the deal that could see the 319 beading north means Northern wont do any work on the units with the next franchisee expected to that, ie start work in mid 2016.

A Northern stakeholder manager has said Northern are in discussions about taking on 5 x 319s to use on Liverpool to Manchester Airport services from December in their current condition. He also said as more 319s come Northern may be expected to release some DMUs for other operators, depending on what business case other operators put forward.

 

[YorkshireBear]

No work done to 319s. As people feared then. Shame.

 

[Class377/5]

A Northern stakeholder manager has said Northern are in discussions about taking on 5 x 319s to use on Liverpool to Manchester Airport services from December in their current condition. He also said as more 319s come Northern may be expected to release some DMUs for other operators, depending on what business case other operators put forward.

So 3 released from the 377/2 and another 2 from the 387's arriving later this year then.

Wait a minute, isn't the Man Airport - Liverpool run with 1st class?

No work done to 319s. As people feared then. Shame.

Very.

 

[tbtc]

Wait a minute, isn't the Man Airport - Liverpool run with 1st class?

No Northern services are

 

[YorkshireBear]

So 3 released from the 377/2 and another 2 from the 387's arriving later this year then.

Wait a minute, isn't the Man Airport - Liverpool run with 1st class?



Very.

No its not its run by Northern Rail who have no first class on any trains (Bar 322s declassified big seats)

Yes but the new franchise will have to. We really need the Northern Rail franchise to be renewed and the investment finally occur.

 

[Class377/5]

Ah thanks guys. I seem to recall a comment on one forum about using 319/3 to the Airport and the lack of first class.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Ah thanks guys. I seem to recall a comment on one forum about using 319/3 to the Airport and the lack of first class.

Airport has First Class provision to Blackpool, Preston, Lancaster, Barrow and Scotland. Then on South TPE to Sheffield & Cleethorpes. Then on the North to Newcastle, Middlesborough, Leeds. (and all other intermediate stations) So 319s to Blackpool is probably the discussion you remember.

 

[Manchester77]

It's not northern operated though it's on TPE

 

[YorkshireBear]

It's not northern operated though it's on TPE

Yes i know i was just explaining where his remembering first class provision to the airport and 319s had come from.

 

[Wavertreelad]

No work done to 319s. As people feared then. Shame.

I suspect most passengers will not notice much difference, what is perhaps more important is that Northern retains any DMU's displaced by EMU's to strengthen existing services to allow more passengers to travel. More bums on seats (or standing) will increase fare revenue to perhaps eventually help fund refurbishment eventually, but don't hold your breath.

 

[transmanche]

No work done to 319s. As people feared then. Shame.

It is. But to be expected when refurbishment is an extra expense that Northern have could not have budgeted for in the original franchise award - but should have been taken into consideration by DfT when negotiating the (non-contractual) extension.

 

[TEW]

I don't think it's too big a problem for the first couple of 319s to enter service without a refurbishment provided there is a good quality refurbishment programme once Northern starts to receive more 319s in the future. In some ways it would make sense to carry out the refurbishment in one big project.

 

[YorkshireBear]

It is. But to be expected when refurbishment is an extra expense that Northern have could not have budgeted for in the original franchise award - but should have been taken into consideration by DfT when negotiating the (non-contractual) extension.

Oh yes fully agree that it is the DfT who messed up and they should pay not Northern.

 

[WatcherZero]

No work done to 319s. As people feared then. Shame.

At this late point likely due to franchise length remaining, the next franchise would probably be required to manage refurbs.

 

[87015]

It is. But to be expected when refurbishment is an extra expense that Northern have could not have budgeted for in the original franchise award - but should have been taken into consideration by DfT when negotiating the (non-contractual) extension.

What if it was and Northern just wanted far too much of a margin for it? DfT would have been funding it either way so they have a responsibility to pax payers not to be taken too far. Wonderful "privatised" railway...

 

[thealexweb]

No its not its run by Northern Rail who have no first class on any trains (Bar 322s declassified big seats)

Yes but the new franchise will have to. We really need the Northern Rail franchise to be renewed and the investment finally occur.

The Northern franchise needs extending doesn't it. I read in a magazine if nothing is done to extend it it will lapse next month.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A Northern stakeholder manager has said Northern are in discussions about taking on 5 x 319s to use on Liverpool to Manchester Airport services from December in their current condition. He also said as more 319s come Northern may be expected to release some DMUs for other operators, depending on what business case other operators put forward.

Given that right now Northern cannot afford to lose a single unit ceding DMUs is unthinkable for years if ever.

 

[northwichcat]

Ah thanks guys. I seem to recall a comment on one forum about using 319/3 to the Airport and the lack of first class.

I imagine it was probably more of the case of someone saying First Class could be justified on Airport-Liverpool services with that service getting some business travellers.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Given that right now Northern cannot afford to lose a single unit ceding DMUs is unthinkable for years if ever.

Agreed. However, I think the short term problem is that Northern, TPE and FGW are finally getting overdue additional stock and other operators like EMT aren't getting any extra stock but if they put a good business case forward for additional stock then either Northern or FGW will likely have to release stock.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This could explain why Porterbrook have looked at re-engineering 319s to have faster acceleration.

In developing the business case for the Northern Triangle electrification programme, the DfT identified that the Class 319 sets which were to be released by the Thameslink programme could possibly provide a value-for-money source of rolling stock. It was noted at this point that in their current state these units could not meet the sectional running times that can be achieved by the 323s so either a new timetable or significant re-engineering, with a traction upgrade, would be required to enable them to match the Class 323 acceleration curve if they were to be considered for use in South Manchester.

Also worth noting is the 323s have TfGM funded CCTV and a condition of the TfGM funding is that either the 323s will stay in GM or if they don't the units that replace them will have CCTV fitted from the outset at no cost to TfGM.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Oh yes fully agree that it is the DfT who messed up and they should pay not Northern.

Don't forget there's a third party here (Porterbrook).
There's a lot of bad blood with DfT over past leasing charges for the ex-BR fleet and I imagine negotiations will be a bit fraught.

Northern turning down the spare 317s on the grounds of cost was not a good sign (although the Rosco there was Angel Trains).

 

[WatcherZero]

Why do you think Northern turned them down? its the Dft that has control of their fleet through its vetoing acceptance of revenue risk from extra units. In the past the Dft has consistently proven they value their revenue share from Northern over the comfort of passengers.

 

[northwichcat]

Why do you think Northern turned them down? its the Dft that has control of their fleet through its vetoing acceptance of revenue risk from extra units. In the past the Dft has consistently proven they value their revenue share from Northern over the comfort of passengers.

Maybe it's a case of DfT had no plans for Northern to take on any 317s so Northern had to look at the business case themselves while with the 319s DfT want Northern to have them ahead of new or newer trains.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Why do you think Northern turned them down? its the Dft that has control of their fleet through its vetoing acceptance of revenue risk from extra units. In the past the Dft has consistently proven they value their revenue share from Northern over the comfort of passengers.

Yes but none of that revenue share stuff applies after March because the franchise contract will have expired.
The "direct award" will be a new short-term deal, as for FGW and Virgin.
I can understand Northern not wanting a tiny fleet of 317s with no prospect of more.

 

[Manchester77]

Tony Miles has said on wnxx that it seems that the DFT have pretty much decided the 319s are the train for Northern and not TPE

 

[Class377/5]

Why do you think Northern turned them down? its the Dft that has control of their fleet through its vetoing acceptance of revenue risk from extra units. In the past the Dft has consistently proven they value their revenue share from Northern over the comfort of passengers.

The information over the 317 offers to Northern stated both Northern and DfT were surprised at the costing and both rejected it not one or the other.

 

[WatcherZero]

The information over the 317 offers to Northern stated both Northern and DfT were surprised at the costing and both rejected it not one or the other.

He didnt explicitly say they were rejected in the initial post.

These may well the the "best value offer" that Northern has received... I hear hints that the 317s were offered at rather more than Northern or DfT expected to pay.

followed up by

DfT has decided that 319s are the solution for the Northern franchise

 

[Class377/5]

He didnt explicitly say they were rejected in the initial post.

followed up by

No but he states they are going for 319s over the offer of 317s, if that's not rejecting an offer I don't know what is.

The 317's were never going to be answer to all Northern's requirements so a single fleet of EMUs make more sense.