Elizabeth line passenger numbers and effect on other lines

[absolutelymilk]

Following the closure of the through running thread, I thought I would open one to discuss passenger numbers and whether the line is displacing passengers from other lines.

E.g. is the Jubilee line now less busy between Bond Street and Canary Wharf?

 

[danielcanning]

Following the closure of the through running thread, I thought I would open one to discuss passenger numbers and whether the line is displacing passengers from other lines.

E.g. is the Jubilee line now less busy between Bond Street and Canary Wharf?

I used the Jubilee Line earlier between Waterloo and Canary Wharf and it was still extremely busy, the usual practice of having to let trains go because of overcrowding is still going strong…

 

[dk1]

I used the Jubilee Line earlier between Waterloo and Canary Wharf and it was still extremely busy, the usual practice of having to let trains go because of overcrowding is still going strong…

Good to hear.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Just spotted this on Twitter (via @lastnotlost, but tweet was protected so I can't share it): EL passenger numbers significantly above predicted

https://board.tfl.gov.uk/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=203&MId=664

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The interesting effect will be on the Central line to / from Stratford. Original X/Rail was geared on massive reduction of crowding from there to London Z1 , with almost impossible conditions at say Bethnal Green.

Anyway , nice discussion with station lady at Stratford on day 2 of the link up from Shenfield to Paddington and she said that slow appreciation of the West End fast links but give it time. I dare say that the Hammersmith and City may see some falloff traffics east of Paddington.

Needs a bit more time I suspect.

 

[stuu]

I used the Central Line between Bank and Bond Street at 530ish today, a few people standing... also used the Jubilee Line from Canary Wharf, which was busy, although better than it ever would have been pre pandemic

 

[ijmad]

Difficult one to figure out given tube use is still only at 80% of the pre-pandemic levels

Still, I'd wager some Elizabeth Line use is induced demand. I know many people who are suddenly much keener to visit Stratford or Canary Wharf on the weekends at least, who would have stayed in their own areas before!

 

[Taunton]

Anyway , nice discussion with station lady at Stratford on day 2 of the link up from Shenfield to Paddington and she said that slow appreciation of the West End fast links but give it time. I dare say that the Hammersmith and City may see some falloff traffics east of Paddington.

But, you see, here's an opposite. I used to go to from East India to Hillingdon by DLR to Canning Town, Jubilee to Finchley Road, Met onwards. Now I do DLR to Custom House, Elizabeth to Farringdon, Met from there. So that means I increase my use of the north side Circle. It seems a few minutes quicker, and certainly less crowded. I also now would go this way to Kings Cross. Much of the time (depends when in the day) I had to stand on the Jubilee. Never yet on the Elizabeth after Canary Wharf.

 

[Mojo]

I’ve noticed that the front car of Ealing Broadway Central line trains, which always used to be standing room even at off peak times, have been significantly less busy. I was even able to get a seat travelling in the evening peak on an Ealing train a few days ago!

I used the Jubilee Line earlier between Waterloo and Canary Wharf and it was still extremely busy, the usual practice of having to let trains go because of overcrowding is still going strong…

Don’t forget that the Jubilee line has had a not insignificant number of trains cancelled over the past few weeks, because of a shortage of Train Operators and rolling stock. So this could just be the effect of that you’re seeing.

 

[Dstock7080]

Eastbound morning Districts from Ealing Broadway are quieter, with a 20min saving to Whitechapel between the two modes is very advantageous.

 

[Horizon22]

Central is easily less busy. People still get off at Ealing Broadway and Stratford to change but it is noticeably quieter.

H&C also as it’s no longer the most convenient route Paddington - Farringdon - Liverpool St being 15 mins slower

On the contrary the Elizabeth line is often standing room only towards Heathrow/ Reading in the front coaches after Paddington, something it never used to be.

 

[thomalex]

I must admit given it's reduced status now I'd be in favour of scrapping the H&C line as a distinct line and move back to calling it the Met. Would simplify the current "3 lines" section with just 2 lines running, the Met being the line that runs from the outer reaches of London and around the top of the city, and the Circle that circles it (well sort of).

Even now you get the train based on it's destination so wouldn't make much of a difference in practice, just a simplified map and overall experience.

 

[Dstock7080]

I must admit given it's reduced status now I'd be in favour of scrapping the H&C line as a distinct line and move back to calling it the Met. Would simplify the current "3 lines" section with just 2 lines running, the Met being the line that runs from the outer reaches of London and around the top of the city, and the Circle that circles it (well sort of).

Even now you get the train based on it's destination so wouldn't make much of a difference in practice, just a simplified map and overall experience.

Except that the rolling stock used to Amersham/Chesham/Uxbridge/Watford are 8-car and would see maps for Hammersmith and Barking which they wouldn't serve.
The 7-car trains would still require "3 line" maps, Circle/District/MET.

 

[xerosis]

I try to avoid it, but Bethnal Green at ~6.30am is still full to the point of having to skip trains. I assume it's people coming from further east and not wanting to change.

 

[Horizon22]

I used the Jubilee Line earlier between Waterloo and Canary Wharf and it was still extremely busy, the usual practice of having to let trains go because of overcrowding is still going strong…

The Elizabeth line doesn't much effect the "south side" of the Jubilee though. Bond Street still hasn't been open long and hasn't looked very busy yet so may be some bedding in going on.

 

[Basil Jet]

Except that the rolling stock used to Amersham/Chesham/Uxbridge/Watford are 8-car and would see maps for Hammersmith and Barking which they wouldn't serve.
The 7-car trains would still require "3 line" maps, Circle/District/MET.

There would be no reason why the 8-car Met and 7-car "Met" trains would have to have the same in-car maps, after all for years the District D-stock and District C-Stock had different line guides showing different parts of the District Line.

 

[alf]

How is a journey like Northern line to Tottenham Court Road then Liz line to Bond Street then back onto the tube counted in the statistics?
At #4 absolutemilk said : EL passenger numbers significantly above predicted.
How do they know?

 

[Basil Jet]

How is a journey like Northern line to Tottenham Court Road then Liz line to Bond Street then back onto the tube counted in the statistics?
At #4 absolutemilk said : EL passenger numbers significantly above predicted.
How do they know?

I don't know if this relates to the 345s, but modern carriages tend to contain weighing scales which can feel every person getting on and off.

 

[317 forever]

Not the Jubilee Line section asked about earlier but ...

On Tuesday August 30th around 2pm, when I was in SE London to ride CrossRail, I found my Jubilee Line train from Canning Town to North Greenwich unusually quiet. (I had reached Canning Town from Woolwich Arsenal via the Docklands Light Railway and was having other bus rides, finishing up at Abbey Wood).

 

[sjoh]

I now have two potential routes and I've found the the loading and time is roughly the same whichever way I go (Leytonstone to Whitechapel) which is actually convenient because i'll just take whichever citymapper suggests is marginally faster when I get to the tube station, and neither are as busy as the Central/District used to be before through-running. Not to mention the game of "guess when the district line will arrive" eastbound at Mile End.

 

[Bald Rick]

How is a journey like Northern line to Tottenham Court Road then Liz line to Bond Street then back onto the tube counted in the statistics?

Leaving aside that I can’t think of any ‘real’ journey where a passenger would do that, it would be counted as one Elizabeth Line trip.

How do they know?

‘They’ count.

 

[gallafent]

I dare say that the Hammersmith and City may see some falloff traffics east of Paddington.

I don't think I've used it once since Crossrail opened! Of course it does depend where one is going … but I've been recently from Paddington to Camden Town, Farringdon, Leicester Square, Westminster, that I can remember off the top of my head, … and in each case, Crossrail was the faster option (than H&C or Bakerloo, heading east from Paddington)!

One set of personal anecdotes does not make a trend, … but I can't be the only one!

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I don't think I've used it once since Crossrail opened! Of course it does depend where one is going … but I've been recently from Paddington to Camden Town, Farringdon, Leicester Square, Westminster, that I can remember off the top of my head, … and in each case, Crossrail was the faster option (than H&C or Bakerloo, heading east from Paddington)!

One set of personal anecdotes does not make a trend, … but I can't be the only one!

For too long I have had to use the H&C to get to Paddington from Farringdon - or other combinations thereof like changing off a Met Main to the Bakerloo at Baker St , - so the Elizabeth line is an utter game changer , and no offence to the H&C a very much better option , even when the dire C stock left the system and the rebuild of Paddington suburban took place. (very nice - but still quite a trek to the main line platforms)

Daughter did the 4 min trip from TCR to Farringdon the othe day - a new connection really - and was amazed how effective it was.

 

[43096]

For too long I have had to use the H&C to get to Paddington from Farringdon - or other combinations thereof like changing off a Met Main to the Bakerloo at Baker St , - so the Elizabeth line is an utter game changer , and no offence to the H&C a very much better option , even when the dire C stock left the system and the rebuild of Paddington suburban took place. (very nice - but still quite a trek to the main line platforms)

Daughter did the 4 min trip from TCR to Farringdon the othe day - a new connection really - and was amazed how effective it was.

I was on the Elizabeth line yesterday for the first time since it started running through east and west. The person sat next to me from Ealing Broadway hadn't realised they were running through until I told him, as he was heading to Farringdon. What didn't help is that there are still line diagrams on some units that don't show it as running through - inexcusable, as they are (sensibly) card inserts into the display frames rather than stickers, so are easy to swap out.

 

[Alfie1014]

I was on the Elizabeth line yesterday for the first time since it started running through east and west. The person sat next to me from Ealing Broadway hadn't realised they were running through until I told him, as he was heading to Farringdon. What didn't help is that there are still line diagrams on some units that don't show it as running through - inexcusable, as they are (sensibly) card inserts into the display frames rather than stickers, so are easy to swap out.

I had the almost opposite last week on a GWR 387 departing Ealing Broadway for Paddington and was asked by a passenger if this train called at Bond Street!

 

[bicbasher]

I used the Jubilee Line earlier between Waterloo and Canary Wharf and it was still extremely busy, the usual practice of having to let trains go because of overcrowding is still going strong…

The Jubilee is still going to get plenty of passengers who use London Bridge and Waterloo, plus Canada Water where Overground passengers from south London will continue to use it because it's the quickest way to get to Canary Wharf.

However I did notice the Overground is busier between Whitechapel and Canada Water as passengers who'd use the Jubilee to get to the West End are using the Elizabeth line instead.

 

[Taunton]

One can see a whole lot of journey opportunities on the Jubilee that transfer to the Elizabeth, although one of the considerations is that whereas the Jubilee station at Canary Wharf is in the best central location there, the Elizabeth one is somewhat peripheral.

 

[bicbasher]

I had a chat with someone who lives in Whitechapel who commutes to Reading. They told me depending on the shift that it'd be a mix of either staying on the Elizabeth line or changing at Paddington for GWR fast services depending on the shift they're working.

 

[jon81uk]

Apparently TfL don't think people are switching from the tube signifcantly and most of the Elizabeth Line passengers are new, switching from car etc.

https://twitter.com/BBCTomEdwards/status/1594661531005947905?s=20&t=lPBGUgDUme3LhZG7bmkMmA

6 months of the Elizabeth line. Tfl says about 600k a day using it - they haven’t seen a drop in tube usage so suspect the shift is from rail and / or cars.

 

[DC1989]

Hmm some selective stats there I think. If you were already been using the Shenfield - Liverpool Street trains for 10+ years, they are now counting that as completely 'new' passengers as it wasn't counted as the 'tube'