EMR MML services on Sundays too crowded - what should be done?

[richieb1971]

Quite often myself and wife travel on Sundays because its cheaper on the train on Sundays. But in recent times we have noticed EMR Inter City services are woefully inadequate on Sundays.

Mainly due to sending a 4 car Meridian from Derby/Nottingham or Sheffield to St Pancras. On the 7th of April my wife travelled from Leicester to Bedford and a Meridian 4 car unit turns up at Leicester with standing passengers already on board. It had to stop at Market Harborough and Kettering as well.

Carnage ensued as people trying to get to reserved seats found it difficult to reach said seats. Where someone is already resident. In the case of 7th April my wife said arguments took place with a mother of a new born/1 year old baby about seating and pushing and shoving occurred. Passengers getting irate.

About 3 years ago a Meridian service was booked to stop at Bedford and it was also a 4 car unit on a Sunday, and again we had to stand or get the Thameslink stopper.

Is it so hard for EMR to use a longer train? Inter city services are long distance and standing should not be part of the service. I mean you pay enough for the ticket.

I think its unnacceptable to be fair. Some of those folk would have to stand from Leicester (or further northwards) all the way to St Pancras. That is shocking service.

Again, why is a longer train not booked?

If you book a ticket for a certain time of day, surely the ticketting system can tell EMR how many people are on that train?

 

[JonathanH]

Mainly due to sending a 4 car Meridian from Derby/Nottingham or Sheffield to St Pancras.

On a pedantic point, EMR don't operate 4-car Meridians any more. That said, a 5-car isn't much better.

Again, why is a longer train not booked?

From Leicester to St Pancras this morning, the departures were
0726 (from Derby) 10 car
0753 (from Nottingham) 5 car
0823 (from Derby) 10 car
0853 (from Nottingham) 7 car
0927 (from Sheffield) 10 car
0956 (from Nottingham) 10 car
1031 (from Sheffield) 5 car
1046 (from Nottingham) 5 car
1144 (from Nottingham) 7 car
1200 (from Sheffield) 10 car
1242 (from Nottingham) 10 car
1259 (from Sheffield) 7 car
1343 (from Nottingham) 10 car
1359 (from Sheffield) 10 car
Then 5 car as the service is slightly more frequent once the two track restriction ends.

Presumably the assessment is that the 0753, 1031 and 1046 are usually not expected to be as busy as the other trains but sometimes they get caught out.

 

[richieb1971]

On a pedantic point, EMR don't operate 4-car Meridians any more. That said, a 5-car isn't much better.

Fair enough. I wasn't there, just hearing from the wife I said "was it a short train?" she said "YES".

 

[43066]

Is it so hard for EMR to use a longer train? Inter city services are long distance and standing should not be part of the service. I mean you pay enough for the ticket.

The thrust of your post is quite correct - namely that EMR’s IC fleet is woefully inadequate in capacity terms - but which longer trains do you suggest they use? They have a finite fleet of five car and seven car meridians, and the fives are doubled on peak trains, and at weekends where possible.

The new fleet will also be five car units, but each five car unit will contain more seats than a seven car meridian, so this should help matters. Until then it’s likely that overcrowding will continue to worsen, sadly.

 

[JonathanH]

Inter city services are long distance and standing should not be part of the service.

Compulsory reservation has its opponents, in particular those who aren't able to travel once the train has no more seats. Even full length trains have finite capacity.

If you book a ticket for a certain time of day, surely the ticketting system can tell EMR how many people are on that train?

Not all people travel on tickets which are only valid on one train. EMR can't change the train plan to match the number of tickets sold. A two track railway plan on a Sunday morning restricts the service they can offer.

 

[6Gman]

Quite often myself and wife travel on Sundays because its cheaper on the train on Sundays. But in recent times we have noticed EMR Inter City services are woefully inadequate on Sundays.

Mainly due to sending a 4 car Meridian from Derby/Nottingham or Sheffield to St Pancras. On the 7th of April my wife travelled from Leicester to Bedford and a Meridian 4 car unit turns up at Leicester with standing passengers already on board. It had to stop at Market Harborough and Kettering as well.

Carnage ensued as people trying to get to reserved seats found it difficult to reach said seats. Where someone is already resident. In the case of 7th April my wife said arguments took place with a mother of a new born/1 year old baby about seating and pushing and shoving occurred. Passengers getting irate.

About 3 years ago a Meridian service was booked to stop at Bedford and it was also a 4 car unit on a Sunday, and again we had to stand or get the Thameslink stopper.

Is it so hard for EMR to use a longer train? Inter city services are long distance and standing should not be part of the service. I mean you pay enough for the ticket.

I think its unnacceptable to be fair. Some of those folk would have to stand from Leicester (or further northwards) all the way to St Pancras. That is shocking service.

Again, why is a longer train not booked?

If you book a ticket for a certain time of day, surely the ticketting system can tell EMR how many people are on that train?

I would suggest contacting EMR and your local MP (if you have not already done so) but - as others have commented - if the entire fleet is deployed on a Sunday there's very little that can be done without robbing Peter to pay Paul.

 

[Starmill]

Sadly EMR have had two long-distance fleets withdrawn in the last few years. Now unfortunately keeping them was also a poor option given how unreliable they were becoming, and the costs of keeping them going. Unfortunately there's pretty well nothing that can be done other than waiting for the new trains at this stage.

There's usually more space on the Corby services. Unfortunately I can see how that's not really attractive for journeys like Leicester etc to London.

 

[blueberry11]

I definitely feel like weekends are busier than weekdays. This is because it is one of the only times you see children around and some workers having the weekend off although it is currently half term.

This is one reason I avoid weekend travel.

I do think the MML is almost at capacity, given that it is two tracked from Kettering to Leicester (which is where the electrification works are almost done).

 

[duffield]

There have been various reasons why EMR services have recently been even more overcrowded than usual at weekends, such as other London terminus stations being closed for engineering works, leading to passengers using EMR to and from St. Pancras instead.
That didn't apply today, but it is the end of Easter week so people who had the week off may have been travelling, and also there were rail strikes on Friday and Saturday so some people may have deferred travel until today.

Anyhow, as per a previous post, the situation will not really improve until the new rolling stock arrives, which does have a noticeably higher standard class capacity (about 30% more) in each five coach unit.

In the meantime, the EMR website has a guide to which trains are likely to be busiest and how many seats those trains should have.

Seat Finder | EMR

Find less busy trains on your route To help you decide which train to catch, we’ve looked at how busy they are likely to be. Simply select two stations and a time to see a heatmap showing how crowded the trains are. It is not a live feed but provides a guide to predict the busier trains during...

www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

I'm not sure how up to date they keep this information, and it may not be very helpful at times of disruption, but it can give you some idea of which services to avoid, and it does mean you can identify which trains are likely to be two five coach units coupled together (it's the ones showing as 484 seats).

These services will often have seats available in the front five coaches (the ones furthest from the barriers) when leaving St. Pancras even when the rear five coaches are full and standing. It may be a bit of a rush to get to the front set (there is no way through from the rear five coaches) if the train is called late for boarding but it's OK if you're not infirm or burdened with luggage, just get on to the sixth coach and then move forward from there inside the train if necessary. If your reserved seat is the rear five coaches and those are seriously overcrowded personally I'd forget the reservation and go for the front five.

I assume you know you can sit in any reserved seat if the holder doesn't turn up?

The other thing is that if you can't get to your reserved seat and no other seats are available in standard class, but there are seats in first class, you should typically be allowed to sit there, but do ask.

Edit: Just to make it clear, you *need* to ask, it's not automatic.

 

[louis97]

I'm not sure how up to date they keep this information, and it may not be very helpful at times of disruption, but it can give you some idea of which services to avoid, and it does mean you can identify which trains are likely to be two five coach units coupled together (it's the ones showing as 484 seats).

These services will often have seats available in the front five coaches (the ones furthest from the barriers) when leaving St. Pancras even when the rear five coaches are full and standing.

Looks to be based on the previous timetable period, some trains on Saturday that are no longer booked a 10-car are not reflected as such.

 

[BJames]

There have been various reasons why EMR services have recently been even more overcrowded than usual at weekends, such as other London terminus stations being closed for engineering works, leading to passengers using EMR to and from St. Pancras instead.
That didn't apply today, but it is the end of Easter week so people who had the week off may have been travelling, and also there were rail strikes on Friday and Saturday so some people may have deferred travel until today.

Anyhow, as per a previous post, the situation will not really improve until the new rolling stock arrives, which does have a noticeably higher standard class capacity (about 30% more) in each five coach unit.

In the meantime, the EMR website has a guide to which trains are likely to be busiest and how many seats those trains should have.

Seat Finder | EMR

Find less busy trains on your route To help you decide which train to catch, we’ve looked at how busy they are likely to be. Simply select two stations and a time to see a heatmap showing how crowded the trains are. It is not a live feed but provides a guide to predict the busier trains during...

www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk

I'm not sure how up to date they keep this information, and it may not be very helpful at times of disruption, but it can give you some idea of which services to avoid, and it does mean you can identify which trains are likely to be two five coach units coupled together (it's the ones showing as 484 seats).

These services will often have seats available in the front five coaches (the ones furthest from the barriers) when leaving St. Pancras even when the rear five coaches are full and standing.

It is generally useful to give an idea of the really busy services but sadly I don't think it's up to date. E.g. if you put in London St Pancras to Nottingham, weekday, it shows the 13:05 and 14:35 (no data for 13:35 or 14:05) as having 273 seats - this I think is a relic of when 180s were used to operate those services.

For the wider thread point, completely agree and look forward to seeing what the 810s can do.

 

[Train Maniac]

I definitely feel like weekends are busier than weekdays. This is because it is one of the only times you see children around and some workers having the weekend off although it is currently half term.

This is one reason I avoid weekend travel.

I do think the MML is almost at capacity, given that it is two tracked from Kettering to Leicester (which is where the electrification works are almost done).

I find it mind boggling this isnt the case. According to statistics its actually Friday that is still the busiest day of the week (as it was before the pandemic)

 

[Starmill]

I definitely feel like weekends are busier than weekdays. This is because it is one of the only times you see children around and some workers having the weekend off although it is currently half term.

This is one reason I avoid weekend travel.

I do think the MML is almost at capacity, given that it is two tracked from Kettering to Leicester (which is where the electrification works are almost done).

It's certainly problematic on Sunday mornings when it's in effect two track all the way. Sunday afternoons see a more frequent EMR Intercity service.

 

[Hadders]

The other thing is that if you can't get to your reserved seat and no other seats are available in standard class, but there are seats in first class, you should typically be allowed to sit there, but do ask.

Just to emphasise that you can only sit in First Class if it is specifically declassified or if you have been given permission by the Train Manager.

You cannot just sit there without permission, regardless of how busy standard class is.

 

[LCC106]

In addition to @Hadders good point, a ticket does not guarantee you a seat if you haven’t reserved one.

 

[richieb1971]

I've raised a concern with EMR but it sounds like until the 810s are rolled out they are doing their best already. I find that with the railways quite alot.

At least from this forum you get impression that best is not always good enough.

 

[dosxuk]

I've raised a concern with EMR but it sounds like until the 810s are rolled out they are doing their best already. I find that with the railways quite alot.

At least from this forum you get impression that best is not always good enough.

They are very much in a situation of their own making. They knew they needed more stock when they got rid of the HST's. They knew they needed more stock when they got rid of the 180's. They know they need more stock when they get the 810's. And they know there will be less seats on the 810 fleet than the former 222 + HST fleet.

This is just what you get when you have no competition during a franchise award.

 

[yorksrob]

It boils down to EMR being forced to withdraw a large proportion of their fleet without replacement. The HST's should never have been withdrawn until a replacement was available.

 

[43066]

I've raised a concern with EMR but it sounds like until the 810s are rolled out they are doing their best already. I find that with the railways quite alot.

What more do you expect them to tell you?

They are very much in a situation of their own making. They knew they needed more stock when they got rid of the HST's. They knew they needed more stock when they got rid of the 180's. They know they need more stock when they get the 810's. And they know there will be less seats on the 810 fleet than the former 222 + HST fleet.

“They” being the DfT, who make decisions about rolling stock allocation, you mean?

 

[JonathanH]

The HST's should never have been withdrawn until a replacement was available.

They were indirectly replaced by the 360s. However, Sunday morning is an issue because two track railway means Corby services can't run to St Pancras until later in the day.

Even if the HSTs were still in the fleet only two trains an hour can run to St Pancras on a Sunday morning and most of those are full length.

 

[dosxuk]

“They” being the DfT, who make decisions about rolling stock allocation, you mean?

No, I mean the company who continue to tell us everything is great and is going to be getting amazing any time soon, who would rather spend a shed load of money on a mascot they never use in their advertising than making sure the seats all have covers.

I have no problem with the front line staff who are doing what they can, but the EMR management has been useless from the day they found out they'd accidentally won the franchise by default.

 

[43066]

No, I mean the company who continue to tell us everything is great and is going to be getting amazing any time soon, who would rather spend a shed load of money on a mascot they never use in their advertising than making sure the seats all have covers.

I have no problem with the front line staff who are doing what they can, but the EMR management has been useless from the day they found out they'd accidentally won the franchise by default.

Fair enough.

It’s just worth remembering that EMR is now simply being paid a fee to run the franchise as the government dictates. As such spending on everything, from the seat covers to the mascot, right through to staff pay, is sanctioned by the DfT. It’s also true to say that not having the mascot wouldn’t mean the fleet issues would be solved any quicker.

There are many issues, for sure, but blaming EMR only plays into the hands of those who are really presiding over it.

 

[yorksrob]

They were indirectly replaced by the 360s. However, Sunday morning is an issue because two track railway means Corby services can't run to St Pancras until later in the day.

Even if the HSTs were still in the fleet only two trains an hour can run to St Pancras on a Sunday morning and most of those are full length.

The 360's were never an adequate replacement as they don't reach the inter city destinations.

If they had adequate rolling stock there wouldn't be any 5 carriage services.

 

[43066]

The 360's were never an adequate replacement as they don't reach the inter city destinations.

If they had adequate rolling stock there wouldn't be any 5 carriage services.

It’s been pointed out before that having more seats overall on the London services, which there are due to the 360s, is a handy way of glossing over the fact that there are fewer seats on the IC side than during HST days, especially since the 180s went.

 

[Aayron]

I fully agree with the sentiments of the original post. I used to enjoy trips from Nottingham to London on EMR, staying in London for a couple of nights and used to make a point of booking on services that used the HST until they were withdrawn. But, recent regular overcrowding has make the journey unpleasant. I now drive to somewhere like Welwyn, St Albans or Harpenden and stay in a hotel there and then use the largely empty during the day local commuter trains to travel into London. Less stressful and no need to keep looking at my watch to catch the specific train my Advance ticket was for. Lets hope the 810s can restore some of the enjoyment of train travel - fingers crossed they will have aligned the seats with the windows!

 

[yorksrob]

It’s been pointed out before that having more seats overall on the London services, which there are due to the 360s, is a handy way of glossing over the fact that there are fewer seats on the IC side than during HST days, especially since the 180s went.

Indeed. Smoke and mirrors !

 

[sheff1]

It is generally useful to give an idea of the really busy services but sadly I don't think it's up to date.

Anyone using the EMR website expecting to find accurate up to date information will only be disappointed.

 

[InTheEastMids]

The 360's were never an adequate replacement as they don't reach the inter city destinations.

If they had adequate rolling stock there wouldn't be any 5 carriage services.

Yes, but they do mean that EMR IC services are not stuffed with passengers that join/leave at Luton, Bedford and Wellingborough for instance, which was definitely the case until 2020. You'd have a Nottingham HST that was standing room only from St Pancras, yet have a bay of 4 to yourself after Kettering!

My experience of the HSTs that were on Nottingham fast services was that they - in general - were moving quite a lot of fresh air outside of rush hours, and since I've been on many EMR IC services where 5 cars was adequate (or perhaps with a few standees indicating a 5x810 will be adequate), so don't necessarily agree that they should all be longer.

I don't think EMR's management is brilliant, but what's more important is the whole EMR IC development has been strategically mismanaged at the top level (DfT / SofS) - the stop/go/stop/go electrification, and all the dithering over rolling stock. I'm old enough to remember when it seemed the railway was scoping out whether HST power cars + cascaded Mark 4s were the answer.

 

[185143]

Yes, but they do mean that EMR IC services are not stuffed with passengers that join/leave at Luton, Bedford and Wellingborough for instance, which was definitely the case until 2020. You'd have a Nottingham HST that was standing room only from St Pancras, yet have a bay of 4 to yourself after Kettering!

My experience of the HSTs that were on Nottingham fast services was that they - in general - were moving quite a lot of fresh air outside of rush hours, and since I've been on many EMR IC services where 5 cars was adequate (or perhaps with a few standees indicating a 5x810 will be adequate), so don't necessarily agree that they should all be longer.

I don't think EMR's management is brilliant, but what's more important is the whole EMR IC development has been strategically mismanaged at the top level (DfT / SofS) - the stop/go/stop/go electrification, and all the dithering over rolling stock. I'm old enough to remember when it seemed the railway was scoping out whether HST power cars + cascaded Mark 4s were the answer.

I think this is important.

The East Midlands has been neglected for years, both in terms of local and regional services. Don't forget we're not that long past single 153s running peak services in Lincolnshire and on the Crewe-Derby lines in particular, with predictable results.

Could you imagine any other InterCity main line out of London* having so many broken promises with regards to upgrades, electrification and even refurbishment of the existing trains? I somehow think not. CrossCountry have also withdrawn HSTs and are well known for running trains too short for their purpose. But this is occasionally "justified" by pointing out "but they don't go to London" or similar. Yet EMR are stuck with very similar trains which DO go to London, along with higher fares than the main lines either side.

(Yes I know, Chiltern. But anything south of Banbury is arguably commuter territory, evidenced by it always being part of NSE, and the bulk of traffic north of Banbury for Birmingham is likely to be of the more budget market, at least traditionally, so comfort and facilities are to an extent less of a priority. See WMT caring little over 350/2s doing Euston-Crewe)

 

[paul1609]

It would be interesting to know the modern day economics of the MML services. I seem to remember that in BR days it was the Basket Case of the Intercity sector, only propped up by Cross Country in the profitability tables. To this day from the southeast it still appears to be the IC route that has plentiful dirt cheap cross London London advances available, indeed this friday Im going to Bolton via Sheffield for this very reason as it even undercuts the LNWR trent valley fares! i wonder if some LNER fares initiatives couldnt solve the MML overcrowding issues?