EMR MML services on Sundays too crowded - what should be done?

[Iskra]

I travelled on a morning Southbound EMR yesterday, I booked a Seatfrog upgrade due to this thread, but STD did seem to be wedged and increasingly so as we headed South. The one thing that confused me was why, if these trains are known to be overcrowded, do the Intercity trains call at stations served by EMR Connect and Thameslink? I can understand calling at one of them to allow interchange, but calling at all of them seems to be inviting trouble as passengers will gravitate to the fastest service while the others run under-capacity. On the way back North between Derby and Sheffield, the screens advised that the train was full and standing as it arrived, but I suspect again this was on the Southern end of the route. Quite a few got off at Derby, and I secured a seat with ease from there. It looks to me that on a normal Sunday, there is adequate capacity, just that people are gravitating to the fastest services which are making unnecessary station calls at stations with an already adequate service.

 

[JonathanH]

The one thing that confused me was why, if these trains are known to be overcrowded, do the Intercity trains call at stations served by EMR Connect and Thameslink?

The Connect services can't run until after the two-track block is lifted. They just run between Kettering and Corby on Sunday morning, hence the extra Intercity calls. First through train is 1141 from Corby, 1214 from St Pancras.

 

[richieb1971]

I travelled on a morning Southbound EMR yesterday, I booked a Seatfrog upgrade due to this thread, but STD did seem to be wedged and increasingly so as we headed South. The one thing that confused me was why, if these trains are known to be overcrowded, do the Intercity trains call at stations served by EMR Connect and Thameslink? I can understand calling at one of them to allow interchange, but calling at all of them seems to be inviting trouble as passengers will gravitate to the fastest service while the others run under-capacity. On the way back North between Derby and Sheffield, the screens advised that the train was full and standing as it arrived, but I suspect again this was on the Southern end of the route. Quite a few got off at Derby, and I secured a seat with ease from there. It looks to me that on a normal Sunday, there is adequate capacity, just that people are gravitating to the fastest services which are making unnecessary station calls at stations with an already adequate service.

My wife was not train hopping to the fastest service. Between Leicester and Kettering the inter city is your only choice, it's that way by design. Then you get the connect service at Kettering to Bedford.

The only way to solve such problems is longer trains or have services that start further south. If and when Leicester is electrified maybe Leicester can mimic the Peterborough kings Cross services.

 

[Mike395]

Can we move any further discussion related to Universal Bedford's potential build to a thread in Speculative Discussion please.

Back on topic - I was disappointed to see yesterday that EMR had reverted to the practice they trialled at the end of last year of all Connect services being 4-car. Particularly on the last day of most local schools' Easter Holidays, this just isn't sufficient.... surely half the Connect fleet isn't needed for maintenance?

 

[bramling]

My wife was not train hopping to the fastest service. Between Leicester and Kettering the inter city is your only choice, it's that way by design. Then you get the connect service at Kettering to Bedford.

The only way to solve such problems is longer trains or have services that start further south. If and when Leicester is electrified maybe Leicester can mimic the Peterborough kings Cross services.

This is certainly the ideal longer term solution. However would there be track capacity to do this *and* maintain 2tph to Corby plus the current 4tph to Nottingham/Sheffield?

 

[richieb1971]

This is certainly the ideal longer term solution. However would there be track capacity to do this *and* maintain 2tph to Corby plus the current 4tph to Nottingham/Sheffield?

Depends on how many passengers get on at Sheffield, Nottingham and derby. If the tph is/are based on southern pickups the diagrams can be lessened.

 

[InTheEastMids]

In retrospect, the 222's should have been built in numbers to replace the whole HST fleet. Because this offset 2 tier system hasn't worked out too well has it?

I guess it'd be argued the HSTs weren't life expired 20 years ago.

Removing the HST without direct replacement is part of the problem with EMR ( as with Cross Country) but that is what you get for voting for 15 years of the same party in power.

Perhaps MML HSTs should have been replaced by IEP Project trains at the same time as elsewhere? But that would presumably also have been locked into the same contract that I believe some Informed Sources believe to be a pretty bad deal...

This is certainly the ideal longer term solution. However would there be track capacity to do this *and* maintain 2tph to Corby plus the current 4tph to Nottingham/Sheffield?

This comes up every so often, but Connect already does pick up everything South of Kettering, except on Sunday mornings when there's no capacity.

I understand that additional semi-fast services would get in the way of the Nottingham/Sheffields. For instance, it's quite common in my experience of the intercity trains, to creep through Wellingborough because the Connect has been caught before it can get onto the slow lines North of Wellingborough.

So a new service would have to leave London at e.g. xx07 but the extra 8 minutes is used calling at Kettering P4 and Harborough, so it'd have the xx32 Sheffield right behind it into Leicester.
Also, running 2 semi-fast services 8 minutes apart (e.g. xx07 Leicester and xx15 Corby) doesn't add much value unless one is overloaded.
Or it has to use the slow lines e.g. from Sharnbrook to Kettering, get overtaken by 2 IC services and basically be useless for everybody.

Alternatively, a more limited stop service would essentially duplicate the inter city service so what's the point unless they are both 240m and full.

Finally, either option takes capacity from Thameslink (I think the hypothetical xx07 would take fast line capacity used by Three Bridge-Bedford trains as far as Harpenden), and also need to be threaded through Wigston Junction into a vacant platform in Leicester.

 

[Helvellyn]

I see Connect not being InterCity argument reared its head again in this thread, so glad to see some correction on that! They are getting 2+2 seating next year (supposedly same as the 810s) so that might encourage more Kettering passengers to use Connect services rather than the InterCity ones. Short of making Up InterCity services set down only at Kettering (and Down ones pick up only) not sure what else EMR can do to funnel Kettering-London passengers to Connect.

With regards a Sundays I don't know how feasible it would be for EMR to run a Corby-Bedford shuttle vice the Corby-Kettering one and try funnel passengers that way.

The other thing I haven't seen mentioned about the Sunday timetable is that it is written to allow for diversions along the route, e.g. via Oakham, as has been happening on a number of weekends. Longer journey times mean more units are needed so the unit diagrams need to be able to support that when required.

It's also not clear what roster agreements will be in place. More 10-car units means more crew to staff two units (even if still one Driver). DfT won't just sanction loads of extra crew. I worked at a TOC that even with Sunday in the working week guaranteed 50% of Sundays off.

Not excusing any overcrowding but just highlighting there are a number of factors at play and very few are in the direct control of EMR when DfT/HM Treasury are signing off so much.

 

[bramling]

I guess it'd be argued the HSTs weren't life expired 20 years ago.


Perhaps MML HSTs should have been replaced by IEP Project trains at the same time as elsewhere? But that would presumably also have been locked into the same contract that I believe some Informed Sources believe to be a pretty bad deal...


This comes up every so often, but Connect already does pick up everything South of Kettering, except on Sunday mornings when there's no capacity.

I understand that additional semi-fast services would get in the way of the Nottingham/Sheffields. For instance, it's quite common in my experience of the intercity trains, to creep through Wellingborough because the Connect has been caught before it can get onto the slow lines North of Wellingborough.

So a new service would have to leave London at e.g. xx07 but the extra 8 minutes is used calling at Kettering P4 and Harborough, so it'd have the xx32 Sheffield right behind it into Leicester.
Also, running 2 semi-fast services 8 minutes apart (e.g. xx07 Leicester and xx15 Corby) doesn't add much value unless one is overloaded.
Or it has to use the slow lines e.g. from Sharnbrook to Kettering, get overtaken by 2 IC services and basically be useless for everybody.

Alternatively, a more limited stop service would essentially duplicate the inter city service so what's the point unless they are both 240m and full.

Finally, either option takes capacity from Thameslink (I think the hypothetical xx07 would take fast line capacity used by Three Bridge-Bedford trains as far as Harpenden), and also need to be threaded through Wigston Junction into a vacant platform in Leicester.

Would it be politically possible to divert one of the 360 services to Leicester, and run the second Corby as a shuttle to/from Kettering? With both services running as 12-cars to max out capacity.

Not ideal by any means, but gives Market Harborough at least some extra capacity. Though to attract people from there and Leicester off the faster service it would probably be necessary to speed up the journey at the London end. The only stop which could really be ditched is Luton. All very messy.

 

[A0wen]

I see Connect not being InterCity argument reared its head again in this thread, so glad to see some correction on that! They are getting 2+2 seating next year (supposedly same as the 810s) so that might encourage more Kettering passengers to use Connect services rather than the InterCity ones. Short of making Up InterCity services set down only at Kettering (and Down ones pick up only) not sure what else EMR can do to funnel Kettering-London passengers to Connect.

With regards a Sundays I don't know how feasible it would be for EMR to run a Corby-Bedford shuttle vice the Corby-Kettering one and try funnel passengers that way.

The other thing I haven't seen mentioned about the Sunday timetable is that it is written to allow for diversions along the route, e.g. via Oakham, as has been happening on a number of weekends. Longer journey times mean more units are needed so the unit diagrams need to be able to support that when required.

It's also not clear what roster agreements will be in place. More 10-car units means more crew to staff two units (even if still one Driver). DfT won't just sanction loads of extra crew. I worked at a TOC that even with Sunday in the working week guaranteed 50% of Sundays off.

Not excusing any overcrowding but just highlighting there are a number of factors at play and very few are in the direct control of EMR when DfT/HM Treasury are signing off so much.

Bit in bold - would need extra units and crews. At present one unit can do the Kettering - Corby service every 30 mins.

 

[richieb1971]

I watched a spotter video from Leicester last night and a 5 car train pulled in (222) and there were about 100 people on the Leicester platform. It was heading north so no doubt had lots of people on it already. I couldn't see inside from the reflective windows. A 100 people could of got off as well couldn't see. But thats a lot of passengers for a short train formation for just 1 stop. I'd say a bulk of the problem is around Leicester as its about 35% of the journey from Sheffield.

An interesting point made earlier is folk using the fast service from Kettering that could use the 360 service going south. But it would be hard to stop people using it.
.