EMR Overcrowding

[LowLevel]

Central Trains had a huge DMU fleet which it could move around as required, unfortunately it was broken into some ineffectual pieces for ideological reasons.

 

[dk1]

Oh super, never mind the crap train interiors for the paying customers, new uniforms are a priority. Well EMR, you can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

That's always been the way lol

 

[43096]

Central Trains had a huge DMU fleet which it could move around as required, unfortunately it was broken into some ineffectual pieces for ideological reasons.

But on the other hand under EMT there was the gain that resources from the London operation could support the regional routes when demand was high, particularly at weekends. The use of HST sets to Skegness and for Lincoln Christmas market are obvious examples. I’d say that delivered more benefits than Central moving the odd Sprinter around.

 

[LowLevel]

But on the other hand under EMT there was the gain that resources from the London operation could support the regional routes when demand was high, particularly at weekends. The use of HST sets to Skegness and for Lincoln Christmas market are obvious examples. I’d say that delivered more benefits than Central moving the odd Sprinter around.

They had been known to cooperate with MML as well mind. MML merged with Central as a sort of Midlands super operator could have been an interesting proposition. However it is all speculative isn't it. The under utilised HST fleet and small but fairly keen pool of local train crew qualified on them was helpful.

 

[STINT47]

A good idea to help move resources around more easily without all these problems might be to merge all of the network and call it something like rail for Britain or even British Rail.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They had been known to cooperate with MML as well mind. MML merged with Central as a sort of Midlands super operator could have been an interesting proposition. However it is all speculative isn't it. The under utilised HST fleet and small but fairly keen pool of local train crew qualified on them was helpful.

Central West merging with Silverlink to create LM (and then WMT) has probably brought more benefits, I reckon.

 

[43096]

The under utilised HST fleet and small but fairly keen pool of local train crew qualified on them was helpful.

Indeed that did help. Management back then were also keen to make things happen (in a good way): they refused to accept Network Rail’s “no” to HSTs to Skegness, for example.

 

[dosxuk]

The biggest advantage of the HSTs for those sort of jobs was their go-anywhere ability. Coupled with so much other stock being based on the same MK3 carriage design and you had a huge amount of stock that was known to be able to work all over the place.

This weekend there was plenty of stock sat around, not least the 390's that would have been running the services on the WCML. Chances of getting them to run on the MML as hired in extras - zero. Before the WCML modernisation though, grabbing a few rakes of MK3 coaches and sticking a 47 on the front would have been pretty easy to organise.

We might eventually get there again with the IEP sets, but they're already being optimised for routes rather than designing them to fit everywhere, so I'm not optimistic.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

To my reckoning today we've had Notts Forest at home, Leicester rugby, Lincoln City at home, Uttoxeter races, Bank Holiday Skegness customers and West Coast closure, plus some more I've probably forgotten. It's been absolute murder all day and now the drunks are fighting. I'd say if this is to continue for the summer there's a not unreasonable risk of the traincrew and station staff walking off the job. I think today is the worst day I've ever known. My phone hasn't stopped pinging all day for full trains.

God was it that bad??? Did the police have to be called out?

 

[QSK19]

Imagine the difference it could have made if only a few were able to be kept on standby for weekends like this one just gone. Gone are the days of spare stock being kept to strengthen services without weakening somewhere else’s service.

Which is part of why I worry that 33x 810s isn’t enough - it seems like that number would be ok when everything goes to plan; but when a Plan B is needed, there will be problems.

I seem to remember reading that the 180s may be kept for the above reason; but why couldn’t another 4x 810s be procured as a follow-up order? I assume that keeping the 180s is the cheaper option; but surely not when their reliability issues are included in the deal?

 

[yorksrob]

Which is part of why I worry that 33x 810s isn’t enough - it seems like that number would be ok when everything goes to plan; but when a Plan B is needed, there will be problems.

I seem to remember reading that the 180s may be kept for the above reason; but why couldn’t another 4x 810s be procured as a follow-up order? I assume that keeping the 180s is the cheaper option; but surely not when their reliability issues are included in the deal?

If they were going to keep anything, I'd have thought a few 222's would be more sensible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is it about TOCs underordering new stock? Has a single one *not* done it?

They should clearly tag on a few more 810s if they're short. That will in the long term be the cheapest option. Keeping old, unreliable junk has not gone well with any TOC.

 

[RailWonderer]

What is it about TOCs underordering new stock? Has a single one *not* done it?

They should clearly tag on a few more 810s if they're short. That will in the long term be the cheapest option. Keeping old, unreliable junk has not gone well with any TOC.

Meridians are very reliable, just not the 180s which have a habit of catching fire. The only operator who over-ordered was GA but the Ipswich - Peterborough was meant to go to hourly and some Lowestoft - Ipswich services were meant to extend to Liverpool St. Besides that I'd say cost is the big obvious factor and overoptimistic ideas that the operations team will take care of the mess the bid teams and business teams left to be cleaned up.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Meridians are very reliable, just not the 180s which have a habit of catching fire.

They're getting old, though, and would be a very small microfleet (a bit like LNR's 319s). A few more 810s is almost certain to be a cheaper option. A homogeneous fleet is just easier in every way.

The only way 222s might be cheap is if they end up going for scrap and so a peppercorn lease is offered, but that'd be true of 180s too.

 

[RailWonderer]

O

They're getting old, though, and would be a very small microfleet (a bit like LNR's 319s). A few more 810s is almost certain to be a cheaper option. A homogeneous fleet is just easier in every way.

The only way 222s might be cheap is if they end up going for scrap and so a peppercorn lease is offered, but that'd be true of 180s too.

Old? 2004 is not old. The lifespan of rolling stock of that kind is closer to 40 years than 20. Then it depends on how well it has been maintained, the build quality and amount of refurbishments so I'd say they have another 15 years in them (the ones that don't go offlease).

 

[Wolfie]

I’m not sure what other alternatives there are. When the WCML is down people do have the option to go up the Chilterns however that runs the risk of their trains being just as overcrowded as EMRs, then would you be saying the same thing about Chiltern not being allowed to take other lines passengers? When the ECML is down there isn’t an alternative.

Yesterday was exceptionally busy not only because of the WCML closures but also because of various sporting events and the GBR ticket sale currently ongoing, as well as the simple fact that Bank Holidays are a popular travelling time; so unfortunately there’s very little that can be done at the moment. We can see EMR trying to get as much capacity as possible by strengthening the Liverpool services to 6 car and sourcing buses where possible (They also made sure road transport was sourced from Kettering back onto the WCML so that trains aren’t leaving people behind on stations to Derby and Sheffield), so you can see that all is being done in these situations

Chiltern was full to the extent of people standing, in the front coach, all the way from Birmingham to London last night.

Marylebone on Saturday morning was "fun" too....

 

[morgainelive]

There’s only one four car and two five car 180s (IIRC) out at the moment! Four sets total.

As I understand it part of the issue this weekend is that Avanti passengers are supposed to be getting replacement buses from Kettering to Rugby and ideally would be travelling to Kettering on the high capacity 360s. However many are electing to join EMR intercity services to Sheffield and change there instead.

sorry what i meant was what i saw were lots of 4 or 5 car trains out hardly adequate is it for BH Sunday/Monday. Ok maybe nothing else was free or staff were not available to double up units but o avoid EMR as much as i can these days.

 

[43066]

I'm not condoning the actions of passengers that have become violent or abusive, but the complete disregard, poor information and bad management at St Pancras will have been significant steps towards causing those issues.

I agree with this. The ball was certainly dropped by someone this weekend. That’s bad for everyone concerned.

sorry what i meant was what i saw were lots of 4 or 5 car trains out hardly adequate is it for BH Sunday/Monday. Ok maybe nothing else was free or staff were not available to double up units but o avoid EMR as much as i can these days.

Agreed, at least the fours will become fives from the May timetable. The reduced sevens won’t have much of an impact because of the excessive first class in those, albeit that was universally being declassified over the weekend.

They were running two 180s joined together yesterday, which was brave (I assume it was the two five cars).

 

[43055]

sorry what i meant was what i saw were lots of 4 or 5 car trains out hardly adequate is it for BH Sunday/Monday. Ok maybe nothing else was free or staff were not available to double up units but o avoid EMR as much as i can these days.

Yesterday looks to only have 1 diagram strengthened which was one of the 180 ones using 180110 and 180113 as a 9 car and a 222 on the other 180 diagram so at least something was done but yes I would of been better if more services were able to be strengthened. As for Sunday there was engineering works between Derby/Nottingham and Leicester until 1045 meaning 8 222's being left in Leicester station overnight (2 in each platform) and as a result you can't run any double sets on these services (maybe even 7 cars?). On a normal Sunday the first 5 car from London would be around 1500 with everything before then either 7, 9 or 10 car.

 

[Dr Hoo]

They were running two 180s joined together yesterday, which was brave (I assume it was the two five cars).

I saw the 1512 Nottingham-St Pancras at Leicester yesterday (May Day Monday). It was formed of 4-car 180110 and 5-car 180113. Only the front 4-car seemed to be in use (and rammed).

Passing Etches Park depot at Derby around 1630 there were four Class 222s in the yard and at least one in the shed. (Obviously I have no idea if they were serviceable, under mods, waiting spares or whatever.)

I was at St Pancras earlier, [Saturday, I believe] and even the St Pancras staff were asking the EMR gateline what the heck was going on. They were letting random bunches of people through with open tickets, while keeping people with reservations behind the barriers, resulting in mad dashes to trains as everyone tried to scramble for the first available seats. I even heard the EMR staff telling displaced WCML passengers that going via Sheffield would be a better journey rather than catching the bus from Kettering to MK.

This bit seems like common sense. Passengers with open tickets can obviously catch any train and even choose between trains for some destinations - e.g. a Corby electric or a Nottingham train for Kettering or a Nottingham or Sheffield service for Leicester. This gets them on their way as soon as possible. Passengers with reservations really 'need' to be on 'their' train and it helps no-one to have them inside the barriers before their train has arrived, unloaded and been prepared.

Genuine question: Which organisation is responsible for crowd management 'outside' barriers at St Pancras? I had always assumed that it was London & Continental Railways or Network Rail as 'station managers'.

I used Kettering station on Sunday and Monday. Although there were signs for the buses and a marshal I didn't see anyone attempting to use this option to link with the WCML.

 

[childwallblues]

Three of us are travelling on EMT from Liverpool South Parkway to Chesterfield next Tuesday on the 0753 returning at 1521. The fare is £4.05 each way. And they are peak hour trains to/from Manchester.

 

[dosxuk]

This bit seems like common sense. Passengers with open tickets can obviously catch any train and even choose between trains for some destinations - e.g. a Corby electric or a Nottingham train for Kettering or a Nottingham or Sheffield service for Leicester. This gets them on their way as soon as possible. Passengers with reservations really 'need' to be on 'their' train and it helps no-one to have them inside the barriers before their train has arrived, unloaded and been prepared.

The problem was that it then meant all the people without reservations got to the train first, grabbed all the seats, and then the people with reservations got to board and all of them had to argue that someone was in their seat. It also has knock on consequences to those with connecting journeys who needed to be on the train, but we're unable to board because it was already full (on the train I caught they ended boarding about 5 minutes before departure time because it was full).

The better way of doing it would be to batch the reserved passengers, and then fill up with open tickets once the majority of those who had to catch a specific train were aboard.

 

[Wolfie]

The problem was that it then meant all the people without reservations got to the train first, grabbed all the seats, and then the people with reservations got to board and all of them had to argue that someone was in their seat. It also has knock on consequences to those with connecting journeys who needed to be on the train, but we're unable to board because it was already full (on the train I caught they ended boarding about 5 minutes before departure time because it was full).

The better way of doing it would be to batch the reserved passengers, and then fill up with open tickets once the majority of those who had to catch a specific train were aboard.

So someone on a cheap Advanced ticket gets on and gets a seat while the person with a very expensive Anytime ticket either doesn't get on at all or does but has to stand. Unfair but in a different way. I'm genuinely not sure what the answer is.

 

[dk1]

So someone on a cheap Advanced ticket gets on and gets a seat while the person with a very expensive Anytime ticket either doesn't get on at all or does but has to stand. Unfair but in a different way. I'm genuinely not sure what the answer is.

The only option is for the anytime ticket holder to reserve a seat which then of course defies the whole point of having a flexible ticket in the first place. As you say there really is no answer. It’s an age old problem.

 

[43066]

This bit seems like common sense. Passengers with open tickets can obviously catch any train and even choose between trains for some destinations - e.g. a Corby electric or a Nottingham train for Kettering or a Nottingham or Sheffield service for Leicester. This gets them on their way as soon as possible. Passengers with reservations really 'need' to be on 'their' train and it helps no-one to have them inside the barriers before their train has arrived, unloaded and been prepared.

It would have been better to have strenuously directed Avanti passengers towards the 360s which have no reservations, and are much higher capacity than the meridians. Obviously there’s no easy way of managing this but it felt like the St Pancras gateline was *really* struggling this weekend.

So someone on a cheap Advanced ticket gets on and gets a seat while the person with a very expensive Anytime ticket either doesn't get on at all or does but has to stand. Unfair but in a different way. I'm genuinely not sure what the answer is.

When trains are that busy it reverts to a first come first served free-for-all as people who arrive later are unlikely to be able to pass through the train to reach their reserved seats. There’s also zero chance of a guard passing through to sort out reservation disputes if someone refuses to move. As you say, no easy solution unfortunately.

 

[Wolfie]

When trains are that busy it reverts to a first come first served free-for-all as people who arrive later are unlikely to be able to pass through the train to reach their reserved seats. There’s also zero chance of a guard passing through to sort out reservation disputes if someone refuses to move. As you say, no easy solution unfortunately.

I agree and that is exactly what happened at Marylebone on Saturday. It wasn't great for the bloke in a wheelchair or the woman on crutches though.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

The only option is for the anytime ticket holder to reserve a seat which then of course defies the whole point of having a flexible ticket in the first place. As you say there really is no answer. It’s an age old problem.

Offering last minute reservations without buying a ticket as LNER do solves that. Once you know which train you will take, reserve.

 

[dk1]

Offering last minute reservations without buying a ticket as LNER do solves that. Once you know which train you will take, reserve.

That’s a good idea. I suppose they hold some back.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That’s a good idea. I suppose they hold some back.

I don't think so, just you can reserve any reservable seat up to close to departure from the origin. If none left and not in a hurry you may well want to reserve a slightly later one instead as you know it'll be full.

 

[Snow1964]

What is it about TOCs underordering new stock? Has a single one *not* done it?

I don’t think you could say Anglia and SWR underordered

Anglia hasn’t put it all into service though, and SWR hasn’t put any into service. Which rather makes total amount ordered an irrelevance to what passengers can use for any journeys this month