EMR Overcrowding

[yorksrob]

The regulations and government departments that forced the franchise to withdraw the HST's without adequate replacements, are what's destroyed the franchise (the main line bit anyway).

 

[morgainelive]

There is considerable overcrowding on the London Intercity trains this weekend in part due to the WCML being closed.

I do feel that EMR should not be taking other lines passengers at the moment. When the 810s come in then it can be reviewed but right now our trains from Nottingham and Sheffield cannot cope with passenger from people in the East Midlands. Adding WCML passengerd is not good for people in the East Midlands who need to travel to London. It's not good but WCML passengers could be put on buses

In my view the HSTs should have been retained even if not compliant as they were great people movers. Any disabled passengers could be directed to the next 223 or 180 service,not great but it could have worked.

For the regional side the extra 170s are needed urgently but with new stock being delayed there isn't much 5hat can be done. Perhaps CAF can compensate every passenger who has to stand? The new stock might suddenly be introduced more quickly if they're hit in the pocket.

I totally agree there were too. Many 4 and 5 car 180s running around on the MML yesterday I had to go Bedford and even the Thames link service was full and standing as far as Luton they really ought to have thought this one through

 

[43066]

I totally agree there were too. Many 4 and 5 car 180s running around on the MML yesterday I had to go Bedford and even the Thames link service was full and standing as far as Luton they really ought to have thought this one through

There’s only one four car and two five car 180s (IIRC) out at the moment! Four sets total.

As I understand it part of the issue this weekend is that Avanti passengers are supposed to be getting replacement buses from Kettering to Rugby and ideally would be travelling to Kettering on the high capacity 360s. However many are electing to join EMR intercity services to Sheffield and change there instead.

 

[_toommm_]

I notice today at least one six-car set has called at Warrington and Widnes. I wonder how they managed it as I believe on this thread or another thread it was said it would be too long for the platform?

Realtime Trains | 1R60 0549 Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street | 02/05/2022

Real-time train running information for 1R60 0549 departure from Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street on 02/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[liamf656]

As I understand it part of the issue this weekend is that Avanti passengers are supposed to be getting replacement buses from Kettering to Rugby and ideally would be travelling to Kettering on the high capacity 360s. However many are electing to join EMR intercity services to Sheffield and change there instead.

That’s not helped by the fact TPE are on strike between Sheffield and Manchester either. Every train out of London after 9am today has been full and standing, most of which have left people behind

 

[QSK19]

The regulations and government departments that forced the franchise to withdraw the HST's without adequate replacements, are what's destroyed the franchise (the main line bit anyway).

Ah yes, which led to the shambolic “ex-LNER-HST-gate”. One of many examples which adds to my theory of the DfT wanting to shaft the East Midlands rail network at any opportunity that they get. I’m amazed that they didn’t cancel the 810 order and insist on retaining the 222s!

 

[MP393]

I notice today at least one six-car set has called at Warrington and Widnes. I wonder how they managed it as I believe on this thread or another thread it was said it would be too long for the platform?

Realtime Trains | 1R60 0549 Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street | 02/05/2022

Real-time train running information for 1R60 0549 departure from Norwich to Liverpool Lime Street on 02/05/2022. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Looking at the dwell times at both, Long Train Short Platform method of work with the butterfly’s to release and close the doors

 

[Rich McLean]

If passengers are beieng left behind at St Pancras domestic on weekends like this one with closures elsewhere, surely they need to think about putting queing systems in place due to capacity constraints? Else the less able will miss train after train, while the more able are able to squeeze on.

 

[Killingworth]

That’s not helped by the fact TPE are on strike between Sheffield and Manchester either. Every train out of London after 9am today has been full and standing, most of which have left people behind

Northern put on 6 coach trains between Manchester and Sheffield over the weekend and that seemed to work well. Running 2 car trains this morning has not!

Some 6 car EMR trains on that route today and at weekend.

 

[timothyw9]

TLDR; sorry if somebody has already mentioned this but with the bank holiday WCML closures, the MML and all TOC's running between MAN & SHF, I feel part of the issue is Journey Planners only showing the fastest/most frequent route, leading to everyone being directed to that route. On NRE if you search via Birmingham or Reading say, it'll show the xx27 CrossCountry departures changing at Leamington Spa for Marylebone or Banbury for Paddington, which only end up being 20-30 minutes slower, but with the advantage of being an 8/9/10 car out of Manchester. At least if it showed those as well, it would take some of the loading off TPE/EMR/Northern.

 

[_toommm_]

Looking at the dwell times at both, Long Train Short Platform method of work with the butterfly’s to release and close the doors

Butterfly switches for the five coaches that are accommodated (or is it four?). I feel sorry for the guard having to do that.

 

[louis97]

Butterfly switches for the five coaches that are accommodated (or is it four?). I feel sorry for the guard having to do that.

The 6 car I travelled on from Warrington Central was front door only there and at Widnes.

 

[Skymonster]

New uniform for EMR staff from tomorrow.

Oh super, never mind the crap train interiors for the paying customers, new uniforms are a priority. Well EMR, you can’t make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

 

[yorksrob]

Ah yes, which led to the shambolic “ex-LNER-HST-gate”. One of many examples which adds to my theory of the DfT wanting to shaft the East Midlands rail network at any opportunity that they get. I’m amazed that they didn’t cancel the 810 order and insist on retaining the 222s!

Well, it was certainly money that could have been better spent !

If they were determined to squander money on switching to East Coast HST's, they should have kept those in place until the new stock arrived.

 

[QSK19]

Well, it was certainly money that could have been better spent !

If they were determined to squander money on switching to East Coast HST's, they should have kept those in place until the new stock arrived.

Agreed - it was a real waste of time, money and resources for just a few weeks’ operation!

 

[Bletchleyite]

TLDR; sorry if somebody has already mentioned this but with the bank holiday WCML closures, the MML and all TOC's running between MAN & SHF, I feel part of the issue is Journey Planners only showing the fastest/most frequent route, leading to everyone being directed to that route. On NRE if you search via Birmingham or Reading say, it'll show the xx27 CrossCountry departures changing at Leamington Spa for Marylebone or Banbury for Paddington, which only end up being 20-30 minutes slower, but with the advantage of being an 8/9/10 car out of Manchester. At least if it showed those as well, it would take some of the loading off TPE/EMR/Northern.

It is quite notable that now everyone books using journey planners they do get diverted onto other routes away from bustitutions. During the WCML blockades of the early 2000s there was a huge coach operation to Hemel with one departing each end every few minutes and they were fairly well used. But today there weren't substantially more people alighting at MKC than usual, and they didn't mostly seem to be headed for the buses.

Not sure how you solve that. Even doing something like lopping out Manchester to London via Chesterfield as Permitted wouldn't have any effect, as Trainline would just sell a split and the problem would still happen.

The only way you could control it is compulsory reservations, I guess, but then rather than the normal users of the MML being subject to overcrowding they'd not be able to travel at all, so that's not a real fix, just hiding a problem.

 

[43066]

I feel sorry for the guard having to do that

It’s fair to say EMR TMs who were unfortunate enough to have been working over the bank holiday weekend have had an extremely unpleasant time of it. There has been unbelievable overcrowding on the intercity routes and clearly also on the local side. They’ve also had the inevitable bank holiday alcohol fuelled dreadful behaviour to contend with. Even early Saturday morning departures from London to Sheffield had fights breaking out and damage to trains from drunk football fans.

The arrangements for dealing with the hoards of Avanti passengers descending on the network were clearly sub optimal, especially the lack of effective crowd control at St Pancras. It doesn’t help that general behavioural standards seem to have plummeted even further over Covid (from a low starting point), to the point where many people now behave as if they’re literally feral, with absolutely no respect or even a single thought for anybody but themselves. It’s depressing to witness to be honest!

 

[bramling]

It’s fair to say EMR TMs who were unfortunate enough to have been working over the bank holiday weekend have had an extremely unpleasant time of it. There has been unbelievable overcrowding on the intercity routes and clearly also on the local side. They’ve also had the inevitable bank holiday alcohol fuelled dreadful behaviour to contend with. Even early Saturday morning departures from London to Sheffield had fights breaking out and damage to trains from drunk football fans.

The arrangements for dealing with the hoards of Avanti passengers descending on the network were clearly sub optimal, especially the lack of effective crowd control at St Pancras. It doesn’t help that general behavioural standards seem to have plummeted even further over Covid (from a low starting point), to the point where many people now behave as if they’re literally feral, with absolutely no respect or even a single thought for anybody but themselves. It’s depressing to witness to be honest!

On the latter point, lots of people are noticing this. It seems that people have had two years of behaving like zombies, and have lost the ability to interact maturely in social situations.

 

[Hadders]

On the latter point, lots of people are noticing this. It seems that people have had two years of behaving like zombies, and have lost the ability to interact maturely in social situations.

Absolutely agree. In my line of work (not rail but involves dealing with the public) behaviour from many has become appalling. We have far too many inciodents of verbal abuse, physical violence resulting in staff not feeling safe etc.

 

[dosxuk]

It is quite notable that now everyone books using journey planners they do get diverted onto other routes away from bustitutions. During the WCML blockades of the early 2000s there was a huge coach operation to Hemel with one departing each end every few minutes and they were fairly well used. But today there weren't substantially more people alighting at MKC than usual, and they didn't mostly seem to be headed for the buses.

Not sure how you solve that. Even doing something like lopping out Manchester to London via Chesterfield as Permitted wouldn't have any effect, as Trainline would just sell a split and the problem would still happen.

The only way you could control it is compulsory reservations, I guess, but then rather than the normal users of the MML being subject to overcrowding they'd not be able to travel at all, so that's not a real fix, just hiding a problem.

The arrangements for dealing with the hoards of Avanti passengers descending on the network were clearly sub optimal, especially the lack of effective crowd control at St Pancras.

I was at St Pancras earlier, and even the St Pancras staff were asking the EMR gateline what the heck was going on. They were letting random bunches of people through with open tickets, while keeping people with reservations behind the barriers, resulting in mad dashes to trains as everyone tried to scramble for the first available seats. I even heard the EMR staff telling displaced WCML passengers that going via Sheffield would be a better journey rather than catching the bus from Kettering to MK. The normal gate line attitude of "I'll go talk to my colleagues rather than deal with the passengers" was in clear display too, at one point with all 4 staff sat with their backs to the gateline having a laugh.

The whole experience just summed up my opinion of EMR - disorganised, chaotic and a team who either don't care or have been dropped in it so much that they can't care anymore. I've experienced WCML closures under both Midland Mainline and EMT, and neither resulted in such poor journeys. I'm not condoning the actions of passengers that have become violent or abusive, but the complete disregard, poor information and bad management at St Pancras will have been significant steps towards causing those issues.

 

[Jozhua]

Unfortunately when it was split up in 1993 (if not before) it created more barriers to this happening. GA have borrowed EMR 158s in the past and Northern have also loaned 156s recently, as noted above, these are all involving BR era stock and simple conversion courses for train crew. However this will be more difficult with each operator now having different types of rolling stock in the private sector era that are not compatible with each other meaning they cannot be used together and also traincrew don't sign the traction between operators because they are so different.

There needs to be a better system for specifying cabs on new rolling stock. Standard layouts on all new trains. This should be easy, especially as it will all just be digital control surfaces anyway.

 

[Mikw]

The country is crumbling and being ran into the ground - behaviour follows suit.

 

[LowLevel]

I was at St Pancras earlier, and even the St Pancras staff were asking the EMR gateline what the heck was going on. They were letting random bunches of people through with open tickets, while keeping people with reservations behind the barriers, resulting in mad dashes to trains as everyone tried to scramble for the first available seats. I even heard the EMR staff telling displaced WCML passengers that going via Sheffield would be a better journey rather than catching the bus from Kettering to MK. The normal gate line attitude of "I'll go talk to my colleagues rather than deal with the passengers" was in clear display too, at one point with all 4 staff sat with their backs to the gateline having a laugh.

The whole experience just summed up my opinion of EMR - disorganised, chaotic and a team who either don't care or have been dropped in it so much that they can't care anymore. I've experienced WCML closures under both Midland Mainline and EMT, and neither resulted in such poor journeys. I'm not condoning the actions of passengers that have become violent or abusive, but the complete disregard, poor information and bad management at St Pancras will have been significant steps towards causing those issues.

The problem now being of course that those full length HSTs that spent much of the day standing at platforms or running about half empty could, if need be, eat up well over 6 or 700 people each if loaded to standing. That ability to deal with disruption has now of course been lost.

 

[nathanclass323]

Absolutely agree. In my line of work (not rail but involves dealing with the public) behaviour from many has become appalling. We have far too many inciodents of verbal abuse, physical violence resulting in staff not feeling safe etc.

In a similar vein to yourself - not rail but still customer facing for an airline. I’ve had more abuse in the last year than ever before at work. It’s a shame to see/hear that it seems no different for railway staff (and of course the industry that you work in).

The problem now being of course that those full length HSTs that spent much of the day standing at platforms or running about half empty could, if need be, eat up well over 6 or 700 people each if loaded to standing. That ability to deal with disruption has now of course been lost.

Imagine the difference it could have made if only a few were able to be kept on standby for weekends like this one just gone. Gone are the days of spare stock being kept to strengthen services without weakening somewhere else’s service.

 

[gazzaa2]

On the latter point, lots of people are noticing this. It seems that people have had two years of behaving like zombies, and have lost the ability to interact maturely in social situations.

I think it comes from the top as well. People see the moral abattoir of our government and Westminster - and see what they get away with - and just think they can do what they like. Aided by generally weak policing from a police force that's been cut to the bone and generally demotivated to deal with anything.

People don't fear the law anymore.

 

[Killingworth]

The problem now being of course that those full length HSTs that spent much of the day standing at platforms or running about half empty could, if need be, eat up well over 6 or 700 people each if loaded to standing. That ability to deal with disruption has now of course been lost.

The problem is as old as the railways in that traffic flows are always going to be out of balance with empty rolling stock going one way to meet the peak hour need. (Freight is similar.)

What is making it more difficult today then 60 years ago is that we don't have thousands of reserve coaches parked up ready to be shunted onto any train that needed strengthening. The ability to make up and run special trains has largely gone. As each year passes the variety of different incompatible classes makes operational organisation far more complex. Firing up a 45 year old HST once in a while may work but those left idle for months might be more a liability than a help. (It was interesting to be stuck on one for 3 hours in the middle of nowhere last year.)

 

[david1212]

The problem is as old as the railways in that traffic flows are always going to be out of balance with empty rolling stock going one way to meet the peak hour need. (Freight is similar.)

What is making it more difficult today then 60 years ago is that we don't have thousands of reserve coaches parked up ready to be shunted onto any train that needed strengthening. The ability to make up and run special trains has largely gone. As each year passes the variety of different incompatible classes makes operational organisation far more complex. Firing up a 45 year old HST once in a while may work but those left idle for months might be more a liability than a help. (It was interesting to be stuck on one for 3 hours in the middle of nowhere last year.)

The reserve coaches were technically basic too, no interlocking, powered doors or CET let alone air conditioning. So long as the brakes worked but not dragged and no hot box unlikely to cause a failure. The locos were in regular use even if not exactly reliable worked hard on a rake of stock rather than local freight or infrastructure trains. However much easier to summon a replacement as more depots and physically anything coupled to anything else. If two class 1 - class 3 and one failed mostly the train could continue to where a swap could be made. Just leaving one working very hard was a big risk.

 

[yorksrob]

Great Western have the right idea for this sort of thing.

Electrify local and main line so that spare local stock can be used to crowd bust for busy events/days. Imagine if a spare one of those long Thameslink units could have been run up to Nottingham to get people moved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Great Western have the right idea for this sort of thing.

Electrify local and main line so that spare local stock can be used to crowd bust for busy events/days. Imagine if a spare one of those long Thameslink units could have been run up to Nottingham to get people moved.

It is a massive, massive help that GWR is one set of management covering everything in that fairly large area. So stuff can be shuffled round.

You could have a similar thing if EMR was part of GTR (don't laugh), or if say Avanti and LNR were the same TOC (the latter was proposed but later dropped).

 

[yorksrob]

It is a massive, massive help that GWR is one set of management covering everything in that fairly large area. So stuff can be shuffled round.

You could have a similar thing if EMR was part of GTR (don't laugh), or if say Avanti and LNR were the same TOC (the latter was proposed but later dropped).

It would probably be more difficult with Thameslink and EMR, but it's the sort of thing that the new "guiding mind" should help to facilitate. I say "should" - whether it will or not is another matter.