EMR refusing Scottish money

[Travelmonkey]

Now I want to garner some opinions apologies if this topic has already came up,

I was traveling thru Sheffield the other night and noticed a new customer notice on their ticket office windows that read as,


SCOTTISH BANK NOTES
Untill further notice we have been advised by our treasurery department at EMR not to accept any Scottish bank notes. This is due to the amount of FORGED notes in circulation. This will be reviewed by the treasury after a short period of time

EMR are sorry for any inconvenience this may cause.

*photo of notice see poster transcript above*

 

[43066]

Now I want to garner some opinions apologies if this topic has already came up,

I was traveling thru Sheffield the other night and noticed a new customer notice on their ticket office windows that read as,


SCOTTISH BANK NOTES
Untill further notice we have been advised by our treasurery department at EMR not to accept any Scottish bank notes. This is due to the amount of FORGED notes in circulation. This will be reviewed by the treasury after a short period of time

EMR are sorry for any inconvenience this may cause.

*photo of notice see poster transcript above*

Seems reasonable enough, and you simply need to pay by some other means. How many people can only pay with Scottish cash?

 

[yorksrob]

I disagree with people being refused legally recognised bank notes. Do they not have one of those light things they can hold notes up to ?

 

[Class800]

You simply need to pay by some other means

In my opinion this reflects the 'we don't care' attitude that sadly has dominated business, rather than thinking 'OK this is what the customer has, so we need to find a way to accept it that works for both of us'. When I lived in Aberdeen, these issues were a pain and meant I had to go and specially collect batches of English notes from my bank branch before leaving home.

 

[Jan Mayen]

Perhaps Scottish banks need to make notes that are less easy to forge. Anyone know which banks still issue notes?

Edit: Looked up the answer on Wikipedia. Bank of Scotland, Royal Bank of Scotland, and Clydesdale Bank.

It also says that Scottish banknotes are not legal tender anywhere, including Scotland.

 

[yorksrob]

Have the Scots moved to plastic bank notes yet ?

 

[alholmes]

Seems reasonable. Whilst Scottish banknotes are a legal currency, they’re not Legal Tender. i suspect they’re rarely seen by many EMR ticket office staff, so there could be uncertainty as to which notes are genuine. Might cause a few problems at Corby, though.

Reminds me of a time when I was manager of a small bank branch in North London in early 1990s, so very used to seeing forged bank notes. One day, one of my cashiers was presented with a Scottish £100 note. I didn’t even know they existed - took a few phone calls and faxes to and from our security team before we could accept it.

 

[diy_dude]

Have the Scots moved to plastic bank notes yet ?

Yes. For those who have never seen one:

Polymer Banknotes

In 2016, 3 new Polymer £5 notes entered circulation in Scotland. follow the Polymer link to find out more.

www.scotbanks.org.uk

 

[alxndr]

Seems reasonable enough, and you simply need to pay by some other means. How many people can only pay with Scottish cash?

People who wish to pay with cash from Scotland. It’s unusual to find an English note here without going looking for one, and easy to forget they’re not the norm in England. I’ve been caught out before, although not for purchasing train tickets.

In any case, the conditions of travel make it clear that you may use your preferred method of payment when purchasing from a ticket machine. It seems reasonable, although not explicitly stated, to expect to be given the choice at a ticket office too.

Have the Scots moved to plastic bank notes yet ?

Scotland started issuing polymer notes in early 2020.

 

[43066]

People who wish to pay with cash from Scotland.

And how many of those are in Sheffield, and unable to pay by another means? It’s a non issue.

In any case, the conditions of travel make it clear that you may use your preferred method of payment when purchasing from a ticket machine.

But you can still pay in cash, just without using Scottish notes. You don’t have the ability to insist on paying using any particular denomination of currency. You couldn’t use the rail conditions to insist on buying a season ticket in a ticket office using hundreds of £5 notes, or thousands of £1 coins, for example.

Would you say the same if they refused to accept English £50 notes, due to many forgeries in circulation, as many businesses have done?

 

[Hadders]

Polymer notes have at least six security features built into them. UV lamps only test for one of those.

Although technically not legal tender, EMR really shouldn't really be refusing to accept Scottish issued banknotes, in my opinion. They should train their staff better in how to detect fraudulent notes. The Scottish Banks (and Bank of England for BoE issued notes) have free training material available to retailers.

A workaround is to use a TVM as they should be set-up to accept Scottish notes (that said, whether EMR has bothered to set up the functionality is a different matter....)

 

[yorksrob]

Yes. For those who have never seen one:

Polymer Banknotes

In 2016, 3 new Polymer £5 notes entered circulation in Scotland. follow the Polymer link to find out more.

www.scotbanks.org.uk

People who wish to pay with cash from Scotland. It’s unusual to find an English note here without going looking for one, and easy to forget they’re not the norm in England. I’ve been caught out before, although not for purchasing train tickets.

In any case, the conditions of travel make it clear that you may use your preferred method of payment when purchasing from a ticket machine. It seems reasonable, although not explicitly stated, to expect to be given the choice at a ticket office too.

Scotland started issuing polymer notes in early 2020.

Cheers. You'd have thought they'd be more difficult to forge.

 

[Hadders]

You'd have thought they'd be more difficult to forge.

They are more difficult to forge. Losses due to forged notes have reduced since polymer came in.

 

[Haywain]

Whilst Scottish banknotes are a legal currency, they’re not Legal Tender.

Legal Tender is not relevant to any of this as it has a very narrow definition, none of which affects whether banknotes or coins are accepted by any form of business.

 

[alxndr]

And how many of those are in Sheffield, and unable to pay by another means? It’s a non issue.

One of the times I only had Scottish cash was further south, in Kettering, so not impossible. Sheffield is, for some unknown reason, one of the most frequently visited English towns by my colleagues, judging from the frequency it gets mentioned.

But you can still pay in cash, just without using Scottish notes. You don’t have the ability to insist on paying using any particular denomination of currency. You couldn’t use the rail conditions to insist on buying a season ticket in a ticket office using hundreds of £5 notes, or thousands of £1 coins, for example.

Would you say the same if they refused to accept English £50 notes, due to many forgeries in circulation, as many businesses have done?

I’d expect that if I turned up with a valid and reasonable (i.e. not a wheelbarrow of coins) method of payment I’d be able to purchase a ticket. Not refused with no prior warning.

 

[mikeg]

Does the Conditions of Travel still specifically permit Scottish banknotes? Could it possibly be argued that passengers with such notes, should there not also be any TVMs accepting them can pay on the train as their payment method is not accepted at the station?

 

[Falcon1200]

One of my mother-in-law's reason for wanting Scottish independence was the refusal to accept Scottish notes in England! Although I did point out that as you get further south they become less and less common, causing unfamiliarity, not helped by the 3 varieties of Scottish note.

It is a long time since I was a booking office clerk (in the south of England) but we did accept Scottish notes, although they had to be recorded and banked separately. And I am able, when visiting England, to use Scottish notes in machines without problem, although at the likes of WH Smith rather than railway ticket machines.

 

[mikeg]

Indeed. I work in retail and it's our policy to accept all Scottish and Northern Irish notes. The latter tends to result in a supervisor call from the cashier though! We have had problems with forged ones, usually the forgeries are poor and rely on the unfamiliarity of the English cashier with such notes.

Words are my own, not those of my employer.

 

[Deerfold]

And how many of those are in Sheffield, and unable to pay by another means? It’s a non issue.



But you can still pay in cash, just without using Scottish notes. You don’t have the ability to insist on paying using any particular denomination of currency. You couldn’t use the rail conditions to insist on buying a season ticket in a ticket office using hundreds of £5 notes, or thousands of £1 coins, for example.

Would you say the same if they refused to accept English £50 notes, due to many forgeries in circulation, as many businesses have done?

Though I did once buy a season ticket at Kings Cross with around 170 £20 notes.

 

[robbeech]

Does the Conditions of Travel still specifically permit Scottish banknotes? Could it possibly be argued that passengers with such notes, should there not also be any TVMs accepting them can pay on the train as their payment method is not accepted at the station?

It wouldn’t matter if there was a law to suggest they must be accepted. If the railways decides it doesn’t want to then that’s that. Nothing surprises me from Sheffield ticket office.
I was at Derby the other day and didn’t see a similar sign although this could be more recent.

 

[43066]

I’d expect that if I turned up with a valid and reasonable (i.e. not a wheelbarrow of coins) method of payment I’d be able to purchase a ticket. Not refused with no prior warning

Well that is that will happen, just so long as you don’t insist on paying in Scottish bank notes. Sheffield has ATMs, last I checked, so I fail to see the issue.

The hypothetical person being worried here is someone who is only able to pay in Scottish notes, with no other means of payment (and no means to draw cash), in Sheffield. An interesting variation on the usual RailUK Forums minority, but no less obscure! It’s something that will only be seen as an issue on here…

If the railways decides it doesn’t want to then that’s that.

How is that different to any other business?

 

[185143]

I tried, and failed, to pay with a Scottish banknote at a SouthEastern TVM at London Bridge a couple of years back. Put a tenner in to buy a Travelcard (the railcard discounted Travelcards were exactly a tenner) and it wasn't having any of it.

I had a Scottish note refused in an Aldi in West Yorkshire about 5 years ago too, the cashier said she didn't think they accepted them so called the supervisor over. He explained that they weren't taking them *at the moment* as they along with other stores in the area had had a few too many forgeries in the recent time. Seemed reasonable enough so I just paid by card, problem sorted.

 

[LowLevel]

It wouldn’t matter if there was a law to suggest they must be accepted. If the railways decides it doesn’t want to then that’s that. Nothing surprises me from Sheffield ticket office.
I was at Derby the other day and didn’t see a similar sign although this could be more recent.

It won't be a company wide thing. What tends to happen is that the accounts team receive a report from the cash office or cash handling contractor of a batch of forced notes, usually the same type and denomination, being used in volume in a particular area and in response whilst BTP look into the detail they send a message out to staff in this area not to accept the note in question in the short term.

We've occasionally had similar on board notices but they don't tend to last very long, the last one was a couple of years ago for forged Ulster 20s which lasted about a week.

I would imagine it'll be gone again shortly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you visit Scotland withdraw cash only from an English bank eg HSBC. You will get English notes as they aren't allowed to issue Scottish ones.

 

[Gaelan]

If you visit Scotland withdraw cash only from an English bank eg HSBC. You will get English notes as they aren't allowed to issue Scottish ones.

Not the case, in my experience - my local Nationwide's ATM issues Scottish banknotes. Not sure which of the three banks' banknotes they issue off hand. (And this happened well before they acquired Virgin Money/Clydesdale bank.)

I'm less confident, but pretty sure this is the case with most other English banks as well.

 

[43066]

I tried, and failed, to pay with a Scottish banknote at a SouthEastern TVM at London Bridge a couple of years back. Put a tenner in to buy a Travelcard (the railcard discounted Travelcards were exactly a tenner) and it wasn't having any of it.

I had a Scottish note refused in an Aldi in West Yorkshire about 5 years ago too, the cashier said she didn't think they accepted them so called the supervisor over. He explained that they weren't taking them *at the moment* as they along with other stores in the area had had a few too many forgeries in the recent time. Seemed reasonable enough so I just paid by card, problem sorted.

I remember having an argument with a barman in Croydon years ago when he gave me a Scottish £5 note in my change, and I insisted on an English one, because lots of businesses are funny about Scotts currency.

It didn’t help that he happened to be Scottish!

 

[Falcon1200]

Some Scottish bank branches, eg the RBS in Gordon Street Glasgow, have an ATM specifically issuing Bank of England notes.

 

[DarloRich]

The hypothetical person being worried here is someone who is only able to pay in Scottish notes, with no other means of payment (and no means to draw cash), in Sheffield. An interesting variation on the usual RailUK Forums minority, but no less obscure! It’s something that will only be seen as an issue on here…

agree - a total non issue

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Not the case, in my experience - my local Nationwide's ATM issues Scottish banknotes. Not sure which of the three banks' banknotes they issue off hand. (And this happened well before they acquired Virgin Money/Clydesdale bank.)

Aren't Nationwide still a building society (not a bank)? Also, don't think their planned acquisition of Virgin Money/Clydesdale Bank has actually happened yet.

I work in retail and it's our policy to accept all Scottish and Northern Irish notes. The latter tends to result in a supervisor call from the cashier though! We have had problems with forged ones, usually the forgeries are poor and rely on the unfamiliarity of the English cashier with such notes.

That's fair enough, as it's the unfamiliarity with such notes is likely to be the key factor; but is there actually a real problem with forged Scottish (polymer) banknotes, either North or South of the border?

Well that is that will happen, just so long as you don’t insist on paying in Scottish bank notes. Sheffield has ATMs, last I checked, so I fail to see the issue.

Are the ATMs, that do accept cash (at Sheffield or elsewhere in England) actually set up to accept Scottish banknotes? You might think so, but doubt that all are.

 

[Class800]

If you visit Scotland withdraw cash only from an English bank eg HSBC. You will get English notes as they aren't allowed to issue Scottish ones.

When I was in Scotland a lot of non-Scottish banks e.g. Santander were issuing Clydesdale bank notes