End of the line for return rail tickets

[Hadders]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in respect of Advance tickets will be the need to make sure 'through Advance' tickets are properly offered. It's no use LNER, Avanti, GWR etc offering copious numbers of cheap Advance fares on theor own trains (I doubt they will anyway but we can hope!) only to then have to purchase a separate ticket for a connecting train.

This could be another hidden price increase via the back door.

 

[Haywain]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in respect of Advance tickets will be the need to make sure 'through Advance' tickets are properly offered. It's no use LNER, Avanti, GWR etc offering copious numbers of cheap Advance fares on theor own trains (I doubt they will anyway but we can hope!) only to then have to purchase a separate ticket for a connecting train.

This could be another hidden price increase via the back door.

Even now it is the case that through Advance tickets are often, if not usually, more expensive than the sum of their parts. I would be surprised if that situation changed to the benefit of the customer.

 

[Hadders]

Even now it is the case that through Advance tickets are often, if not usually, more expensive than the sum of their parts. I would be surprised if that situation changed to the benefit of the customer.

Although the LNER trial has walk up Anytime and Super Off-Peak I can see a time, with the Governments obsession with 'surge pricing' and 'reducing reliance on taxpayers' that we end up with Anytime and Advance fares only on long distance services. You would want through Advance tickets in that situation.

 

[Haywain]

Although the LNER trial has walk up Anytime and Super Off-Peak I can see a time, with the Governments obsession with 'surge pricing' and 'reducing reliance on taxpayers' that we end up with Anytime and Advance fares only on long distance services. You would want through Advance tickets in that situation.

And I would expect that you'll still get them but, as now, at a premium over tickets that are restricted to the TOC's own services.

 

[Hadders]

And I would expect that you'll still get them but, as now, at a premium over tickets that are restricted to the TOC's own services.

That's what I feared. So journeys like Northampton to Glasgow become more expensive, especially if you have to use LNR to get to Crewe to connect. At the moment an Off Peak Return would probably be best but if walk-on Off-Peak fares do get abolished (appreciate no-one's said Off Peak will get aboiished but I can see it happening) then it'll either be a combination of 'surge priced' tickets from Northampton to Crewe and then Crewe to Glasgow, or an Anytime Northampton to Crewe to with a 'surge priced' Crewe to Glasgow.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned in respect of Advance tickets will be the need to make sure 'through Advance' tickets are properly offered. It's no use LNER, Avanti, GWR etc offering copious numbers of cheap Advance fares on theor own trains (I doubt they will anyway but we can hope!) only to then have to purchase a separate ticket for a connecting train.

This could be another hidden price increase via the back door.

I'd bin them and replace with planners all being able and required to do simple splits properly. Simpler than things are where they sometimes exist and sometimes don't.

Doubt it's in scope for these changes though.

 

[Haywain]

That's what I feared. So journeys like Northampton to Glasgow become more expensive, especially if you have to use LNR to get to Crewe to connect. At the moment an Off Peak Return would probably be best but if walk-on Off-Peak fares do get abolished (appreciate no-one's said Off Peak will get aboiished but I can see it happening) then it'll either be a combination of 'surge priced' tickets from Northampton to Crewe and then Crewe to Glasgow, or an Anytime Northampton to Crewe to with a 'surge priced' Crewe to Glasgow.

When I say at a premium, it's simply that a lower level Advance may only be available on TOC only tickets, so you go up a step or two for through tickets. And you're assuming that 'surge pricing' is always going to be bad news.

 

[Halwynd]

Anytime Singles will be a given. Off Peak? I wonder whether there will be a blanket morning and evening restriction as there is in Greater Manchester (not before 09:30, or between 16:00 and 18:30)? Then again, we're told that the 'peak' has moved to Saturdays. Perhaps there might be a dynamic Off Peak (moving around the days of the week) as well as a dynamic Advance, with dynamic Advance tickets not only being available in advance, but right up to a few minutes before departure, which today are called Anytime or Off Peak... A Dynamic Anytime is then only a few steps away - sorry, this train is fully booked.

 

[Watershed]

And you're assuming that 'surge pricing' is always going to be bad news.

It's not called "surge" pricing for nothing. The intention is clearly to massively ramp up fares at times of high demand. Obviously, in some cases there will still be cheap fares available - but it would be foolish to assume that this is a good thing for consumers, when the whole point of the exercise is that Advance prices will be more variable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not called "surge" pricing for nothing. The intention is clearly to massively ramp up fares at times of high demand. Obviously, in some cases there will still be cheap fares available - but it would be foolish to assume that this is a good thing for consumers, when the whole point of the exercise is that Advance prices will be more variable.

Has the DaFT actually used the phrase "surge pricing"? I believe they called it "dynamic pricing", and that appallingly drafted Torygraph article that spawned the others compared it to Uber.

 

[Jurg]

If 'surge pricing' is an accurate description of what the DfT are trying to achieve, then they need to stop talking about simplifying fares. If passengers are faced with an opaque and ever-changing array of fares for journeys that were previously reliably available at the same price week-in-week-out, then the opposite of simplification is happening.

 

[30907]

If 'surge pricing' is an accurate description of what the DfT are trying to achieve, then they need to stop talking about simplifying fares. If passengers are faced with an opaque and ever-changing array of fares for journeys that were previously reliably available at the same price week-in-week-out, then the opposite of simplification is happening.

Slightly OT, but I have just discovered that Trenitalia's "Base" (most flexible) rate is variable AND - their trains being reservation-only - if you rebook you have to pay any difference. By contrast, DB's Flexpreis (Anytime) can be used on any train while it is valid (2 days IIRC, and yes, you can play the system!)
Not sure how much the Base fare varies, Flexpreis doesn't vary very much AFAIK.

 

[fandroid]

Slightly OT, but I have just discovered that Trenitalia's "Base" (most flexible) rate is variable AND - their trains being reservation-only - if you rebook you have to pay any difference. By contrast, DB's Flexpreis (Anytime) can be used on any train while it is valid (2 days IIRC, and yes, you can play the system!)
Not sure how much the Base fare varies, Flexpreis doesn't vary very much AFAIK.

I run a website for couriers who use German Railways (DB) a lot and the fares that couriers feed back to me suggest that Flexpreis fares do not vary, except during general price changes. Remember that the German government reduced (or eliminated, I forget which) VAT on train travel not too long ago, so the fares may have recently flexed down as well as the usual up.

 

[cb00]

They haven't thought this through... why would reducing the price of a single to 50% of a return, require the abolition of a return ticket?

Why not reduce the single to 50% of the return AND keep the return option available, for the many rail travellers who use these tickets for the flexibility?

 

[Bletchleyite]

They haven't thought this through... why would reducing the price of a single to 50% of a return, require the abolition of a return ticket?

Why not reduce the single to 50% of the return AND keep the return option available, for the many rail travellers who use these tickets for the flexibility?

Because part of the package is that fraud losses are reduced from the reuse of unscanned period return tickets. I suppose you could offer day returns at twice the single, but as that's exactly the same thing as two singles why bother? If you ask for a day return you'll just be sold the two singles which is the same thing.

 

[Wallsendmag]

They haven't thought this through... why would reducing the price of a single to 50% of a return, require the abolition of a return ticket?

Why not reduce the single to 50% of the return AND keep the return option available, for the many rail travellers who use these tickets for the flexibility?

You need to change the way you think . If you’re not going to pay more than the return price you just buy the return single as you walk to the train.

 

[30907]

I run a website for couriers who use German Railways (DB) a lot and the fares that couriers feed back to me suggest that Flexpreis fares do not vary, except during general price changes.

Looking at next Friday afternoon from Berlin to Bielefeld (random choice, but peak time, the Flex fare varies between EUR89 and 104 which is rather more than I expected - I must say it has the potential for a good deal of hassle.

 

[yorksrob]

They haven't thought this through... why would reducing the price of a single to 50% of a return, require the abolition of a return ticket?

Why not reduce the single to 50% of the return AND keep the return option available, for the many rail travellers who use these tickets for the flexibility?

Exactly. It would give passengers the choice to find what works for them

Problem is, the Establishment don't want people finding that.

 

[johncrossley]

Looking at next Friday afternoon from Berlin to Bielefeld (random choice, but peak time, the Flex fare varies between EUR89 and 104 which is rather more than I expected - I must say it has the potential for a good deal of hassle.

Don't forget in Germany you divide long distance fares by two because of the Bahncard 50.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Don't forget in Germany you divide long distance fares by two because of the Bahncard 50.

Also the present exchange rate is unnatural. If you want the cost of living to be the same between the two countries, GBP1 = EUR1.50 is a bit closer to things, so the fares are "inflated" in that way too.

 

[Haywain]

Don't forget in Germany you divide long distance fares by two because of the Bahncard 50.

Only if you have the Bahncard.

 

[Kite159]

It's not called "surge" pricing for nothing. The intention is clearly to massively ramp up fares at times of high demand. Obviously, in some cases there will still be cheap fares available - but it would be foolish to assume that this is a good thing for consumers, when the whole point of the exercise is that Advance prices will be more variable.

Cheap fares probably only available on the first train of the day at 05:XX and the last train of the day.

I noticed that when looking at London to Leeds fares for a random Saturday in April, website said "from £20" but when you drilled into it those £20 were on the first & last trains, everything else was £35+

 

[zwk500]

Cheap fares probably only available on the first train of the day at 05:XX and the last train of the day.

I noticed that when looking at London to Leeds fares for a random Saturday in April, website said "from £20" but when you drilled into it those £20 were on the first & last trains, everything else was £35+

Of course, anybody who's tried to book a no-frills flight will have a broadly similar experience (or indeed Eurostar. I've certainly seen their £40 tickets available, but never at a time I'd want).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Cheap fares probably only available on the first train of the day at 05:XX and the last train of the day.

Back to the future? That sounds a bit like Victorian era Parliamentary / Workmen's tickets!

 

[TheManOnThe172]

Cheap fares probably only available on the first train of the day at 05:XX and the last train of the day.

And I wouldn't be so sure of "first train of the day" either.

From many longer routes (especially branches connecting onto mainline services) the first train of the day becomes a premium train by the time it has reached its destination.

 

[Gerald Fiennes]

DB Flexpreis fares do not vary with time/departure etc., they are based on the national kilometric tariff that German Railways have. The variation from Berlin - Bielfeled will arise according to whetheer an ICE or IC/EC trains are being quoted for. The former still have a supplement, which is added to the kilometric tariff. (Older readers may recall that there used to be DM3 supplement for use of an IC train and DM1.5 for a D-train that you could buy from a machine before boarding!)

However, the flexpreis can be used on any train within its validity and train type, ie. any ICE train can be used if you have one with the ICE supplement. They are equivalent to the GB Anytime Fares, except that in GB there are no supplements by train type. Perhaps that's something the Government is thinking of applying...?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

So what do we now actually know?

- The LNER single leg pricing pilot is to be extended
- LNER will also pilot ‘surge pricing’ (not their term)
- PAYG will be extended in London and the South East

And what do we not know?

- quite what is meant by ‘surge pricing’
- whether flexible fares will survive
- what single leg pricing would look like on a non inter-city operation.
- when (or if) the scheme will be rolled out nationally


It seems to me that this extended pilot will be nearer than the current pilot to whatever will be introduced nationally - but not necessarily identical to a national scheme. So we need to watch it closely to see what we can learn, to identify any threats and benefits - whether to passengers in general, or to those of us who are keen to maximise our benefits by using edge cases. An obvious issue is whether flexible tickets will survive and at what price - important both for flexible travel and because they will provide a de facto cap on how high booked-train-only fares can go.

The big area which I don’t see us being able to understand by watching the extended pilot is how single leg pricing (etc) will work on a non inter-city operation. We have some idea what’s proposed for commuter railways from the London and South East experience, but it will be interesting to see what is eventually suggested for (say) Northern or TPE.

 

[infobleep]

Only if you have the Bahncard.

But the Bahncard exists so you can get one.

 

[yorksrob]

Only if you have the Bahncard.

Yes, bring in a Bahncard here then.

 

[infobleep]

Even now it is the case that through Advance tickets are often, if not usually, more expensive than the sum of their parts. I would be surprised if that situation changed to the benefit of the customer.

I'm many cases you can't even get an advanced ticket.

For example, one can buy an advanced ticket from Haywards Heath to London Victoria but not Haywards Heath to Guildford.

You can buy an advanced ticket from Guildford to Gatwick Airport but not Guildford to Haywards Heath.

I was looking up train fares to Nottingham in April. Whilst I could get an advanced ticket from London. I couldn't from Guildford.

In this case, being a Saturday, I assume advances have been released on the Guildford to Waterloo section yet.

So currently buying multiple tickets is cheaper but only one of them will be an advance.