Energy price rises and price cap discussion.

[AM9]

If you are keeping the house at the same temperature by actively injecting thermal energy, then yes it is a waste. If you're keeping the house at the same temperature by reducing the loss of thermal energy and capturing free energy (e.g. sun) then it is not.

That's my point but @Bletchleyite was inferring deliberately using energy to keep a dwelling at the same temperature for a) personal comfort when first returning home, b) to prevent damp etc. which may physically damage the premises.

 

[Kite159]

Has there been a answer on why the standing charge increases as well as the electricity unit costs? It's all well and good reducing usage. I have reduced usage by 40% but am still paying more due to an increase in standing charges

Wasn't it to cover the costs of all those failed smaller suppliers?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's my point but @Bletchleyite was inferring deliberately using energy to keep a dwelling at the same temperature for a) personal comfort when first returning home, b) to prevent damp etc. which may physically damage the premises.

No, I wasn't. I was referring to keeping at the same temperature while in it rather than the very common "blast it to 23 for an hour in the morning/evening" approach, and also bringing it up automatically as it detects you're returning home.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The issue being the difference between 'efficient energy use' and 'comfort'. Letting the house cool down whilst away uses the least energy (see I do listen to science) but delivers lower comfort. When I worked in a large office building and we had the long christmas break (closed 25/12 to 1/1) the heating was turned off and only back on again on the first day back at work. It would take two or three days before the office was comfortable to properly work in - depending on the temperature over the break of course. People sat in coats and gloves but hey, it was energy efficient!

Yep that seems a reasonable analysis to me.

Of course now we have both strong environmental concerns and a shortage of energy caused largely by that for extremely good reasons, the most of the democratic World wishes to avoid buying Russian energy, and that pushes the balance of the two concerns (comfort vs. energy efficiency) much more towards needing to be energy efficient. And the price increases, awful though they are for people on lower incomes, are fundamentally an indication of the need for the country as a whole to urgently start using less energy.

 

[Cloud Strife]

That's my point but @Bletchleyite was inferring deliberately using energy to keep a dwelling at the same temperature for a) personal comfort when first returning home, b) to prevent damp etc. which may physically damage the premises.

At least in Poland in winter, you definitely don't want to be turning off the heating and then turning it back on like this. Damp is a serious issue, and so my heating is at 20/18 in the winter months. However, it gets turned off around the beginning of May and won't be turned back on until October, and even with windows/the patio door open, the temperature inside is rarely below 20-21 in summer.

 

[AM9]

At least in Poland in winter, you definitely don't want to be turning off the heating and then turning it back on like this. Damp is a serious issue, and so my heating is at 20/18 in the winter months. However, it gets turned off around the beginning of May and won't be turned back on until October, and even with windows/the patio door open, the temperature inside is rarely below 20-21 in summer.

Insurance companies usually insist that a property should be maintained at a temperature of 12 or 13 deg C when unattended. Any house with half reasonable insulation will be that temperature or above 24 hours after turning off heating at 20C. Also, the UK temperature in the depths of winter rarely stay below freezing point for more than a week so an indoor temperature of 13 deg C is not difficult to maintain, but it is quite uncomfortable to live in.

 

[najaB]

At least in Poland in winter, you definitely don't want to be turning off the heating and then turning it back on like this. Damp is a serious issue, and so my heating is at 20/18 in the winter months.

If the issue is purely to avoid damp (say if the property is going to be empty for an extended period), then you probably could let the temperature get down to around 13-14° and save a considerable amount of energy.

 

[Wynd]

Uhm... Reasons?

How is it justifiable to raise the standing charges at the same rate as the wholesale electricity? Has the cost of delivering the electricity gone up by the same amount at the electricity itself, or is this just flagrant profiteering?

 

[ainsworth74]

How is it justifiable to raise the standing charges at the same rate as the wholesale electricity? Has the cost of delivering the electricity gone up by the same amount at the electricity itself, or is this just flagrant profiteering?

Some of it is increased network prices (inflation effecting materials, wages, etc) but to my knowledge the overwhelming majority of the rise is bailing out the failed energy companies and all their customers. One might question whether its right that Ofgem's lackadaisical regulation of the sector which allowed for private companies to be set up, profits extracted during good times and then the individuals who profited to cut their losses and the mess over to the taxpayer and bill payers...

 

[duncanp]

How is it justifiable to raise the standing charges at the same rate as the wholesale electricity? Has the cost of delivering the electricity gone up by the same amount at the electricity itself, or is this just flagrant profiteering?

What the government is desperately trying to hide is that part of the so called "standing charge" is to cover the "green energy levy". and also the cost of supporting failed energy companies.

If the standing charge only reflected the cost of maintaing the infrastructure necessary for the supply, it would be a lot lower than it is now, and wouldn't need to go up (or down) in line with changes in the wholesale price of gas or electricity.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Has there been a answer on why the standing charge increases as well as the electricity unit costs? It's all well and good reducing usage. I have reduced usage by 40% but am still paying more due to an increase in standing charges

£68 is to cover the costs incurred by 'suppliers of last resort', that is the money lost by customers of failed companies. The new supplier credits the customer account then claims that back.

If the standing charge was reduced, the unit price would go up. Depends where you are in terms of use. As a heavy user I prefer a higher standing charge and lower rate per unit. Others prefer it the other way round.

 

[Howardh]

£68 is to cover the costs incurred by 'suppliers of last resort', that is the money lost by customers of failed companies. The new supplier credits the customer account then claims that back.

If the standing charge was reduced, the unit price would go up. Depends where you are in terms of use. As a heavy user I prefer a higher standing charge and lower rate per unit. Others prefer it the other way round.

Used to be able to do that, choose a tariff with high standing charge and low unit costs, or vice-versa. In fact N-power used to have a tariff with no standing charges, but the first certain percentage of your use was charged higher than the remainder.

I think Truss is digging a hole for herself in insisting the way forward is tax cuts. That's fine for those who pay a lot of tax (meaning they have a large income in the first place so could probably cover price rises) but for those under, say £20k, part-timers, the retired etc who might map no tax the benefit is exactly what??

Regarding damp, isn't the issue not so much the temperature but the amount of vapour in the house? So if you hang damp clothes inside with no or little ventilation, the water transfers itself from the clothes into the walls?

 

[HSTEd]

If the standing charge only reflected the cost of maintaing the infrastructure necessary for the supply, it would be a lot lower than it is now, and wouldn't need to go up (or down) in line with changes in the wholesale price of gas or electricity.

It would still be somewhat related to the price of wholesale electricity because it covers various balancing charges that are dififcult to recover from the retailers.
After all the system operator is the one who decides what generating plant actually generates and has to cover the cost of electricity produced but that is (nominally) consumed by noone.

The billing system is not perfect and measurable quantities of electricity are lost to resistive heating in cables and transformers, and outright electricity theft.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I think Truss is digging a hole for herself in insisting the way forward is tax cuts. That's fine for those who pay a lot of tax (meaning they have a large income in the first place so could probably cover price rises) but for those under, say £20k, part-timers, the retired etc who might map no tax the benefit is exactly what??

Are there many Conservative Party members falling in that that category that I have emboldened who will have voted in the Conservative Party election for the next Prime Minister?

 

[Howardh]

Are there many Conservative Party members falling in that that category that I have emboldened who will have voted in the Conservative Party election for the next Prime Minister?

Yes, many votes will indeed have been cast. More fool them for not waiting until the show ends. the clever money seems to be on a quick general election - on the grounds that the winter is gonna be a horror show for the Tories so best to go to the country now. These fuel prices will still be with us (probably??) in the winter of 23/4 which is the eve of the most likely election date, May 24 (even though they could hang on until November).

 

[brad465]

What I'd quite like to see are similar initiatives to those being deployed in Hanover, where unnecessary building lights are being turned off at night, hot water in public places (okay this one is debatable), reduction in heating temperature and moving more towards LEDs and motion sensor lighting where not already present:

Germany: City of Hanover turns off the lights and hot water as it braces for winter energy crisis

Other gas-saving measures being introduced in Hanover include switching off public fountains and stopping illuminating major buildings such as the city hall at night.

news.sky.com

The German city of Hanover has brought in strict new energy saving rules as fears grow over a winter energy crisis sparked by Vladimir Putin cutting gas supplies to Europe.

Officials will cut off the hot water in public buildings, swimming pools, sports halls and gyms.

Other gas-saving measures include switching off public fountains and stopping illuminating major buildings such as the town hall at night.

Mayor Belit Onay tweeted: "The aim is to reduce our energy consumption by 15 percent.

"This is a reaction to the impending gas shortage, which poses a major challenge for the municipalities - especially for a large city like Hanover."

Other measures being introduced include:

• Cutting times that the heating will be on in municipal buildings from October to March - excluding day-care centres
• Limiting room temperatures to a maximum of 20C, and 15C in sports halls and gyms
• Converting all lamps to LED
• Installing motion detectors instead of permanent lighting in toilet facilities, bicycle sheds and car parks and corridors
• Banning mobile air conditioners, fan heaters or radiators

If this sort of initiative was scaled up for the whole of UK (and other sensitive countries), and tweaked according to different cities' setups, I think this will make a huge difference.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The street lights in our rural part of the borough are now LED lights.

 

[trebor79]

[PassiveHaus] I'd go as far as mandatory for all new planning applications, effective immediately.

I agree.

 

[najaB]

Regarding damp, isn't the issue not so much the temperature but the amount of vapour in the house? So if you hang damp clothes inside with no or little ventilation, the water transfers itself from the clothes into the walls?

It's both temperature and relative humidity. If the temperature drops below the dew point (which is directly proportional to relative humidity) then damp you shall get.

 

[Ediswan]

It's both temperature and relative humidity. If the temperature drops below the dew point (which is directly proportional to relative humidity) then damp you shall get.

Dew point is always 100% relative humidity. It varies according to the absolute humidity.

 

[najaB]

Dew point is always 100% relative humidity. It varies according to the absolute humidity.

D'oh! Yes, that's what I meant.

 

[tomuk]

Good, now England/Wales/NI need to do it too!

Building regs 2022: what’s changed and what you need to know

Updated Building Regulations for England take effect today. Here we outline the major changes, what architects need to know and how it will affect current and proposed projects

www.architectsjournal.co.uk

• From 15 June, new-build homes will need to produce at least 31 per cent less carbon emissions. The installation of electric heating systems combined with renewable energy sources such as solar are both seen as enablers for doing so
• New non-domestic builds will need to produce at least 27 per cent less carbon emissions with similar low energy measures to the previous in place

 

[najaB]

From 15 June, new-build homes will need to produce at least 31 per cent less carbon emissions.

Less than... what exactly?

 

[Domh245]

Less than... what exactly?

Than allowed under the previous edition of the building regulations. There's nowhere at all where it's written down as an objective "x kgCO2e/m2" though - it's defined per system as far as I can tell, presumably the 31% is an average decrease based on the typical elements installed across a house

 

[Ediswan]

D'oh! Yes, that's what I meant.

Not a problem. It is very easy to get technical terms mixed up. Your point was valid.

 

[Kite159]

What I'd quite like to see are similar initiatives to those being deployed in Hanover, where unnecessary building lights are being turned off at night, hot water in public places (okay this one is debatable), reduction in heating temperature and moving more towards LEDs and motion sensor lighting where not already present:

Germany: City of Hanover turns off the lights and hot water as it braces for winter energy crisis

Other gas-saving measures being introduced in Hanover include switching off public fountains and stopping illuminating major buildings such as the city hall at night.

news.sky.com

If this sort of initiative was scaled up for the whole of UK (and other sensitive countries), and tweaked according to different cities' setups, I think this will make a huge difference.

Makes sense in either turning off, going down to reduced lighting with motion sensors for office space which is empty overnight/weekends. Rather than having most of the lights on all the time for "security" reasons.

 

[birchesgreen]

No one going to make a "the lights are going out over Europe" quip?

 

[DelayRepay]

Makes sense in either turning off, going down to reduced lighting with motion sensors for office space which is empty overnight/weekends. Rather than having most of the lights on all the time for "security" reasons.

Yeah, my office has had these lights for years. They've served us well during Covid, and since, when there are parts of the office that are no longer occupied on a regular basis. Light is available (for health and safety reasons) but we are not wasting energy. I have been told that across our company, our energy usage has significantly reduced (obviously, more working at home means that most of the savings will be reflected by a corresponding increase in employees' domestic usage).

 

[Snow1964]

Yeah, my office has had these lights for years. They've served us well during Covid, and since, when there are parts of the office that are no longer occupied on a regular basis. Light is available (for health and safety reasons) but we are not wasting energy. I have been told that across our company, our energy usage has significantly reduced (obviously, more working at home means that most of the savings will be reflected by a corresponding increase in employees' domestic usage).

When I worked at Canary Wharf had these light sensors, that turned off a zone if no movement was detected for about 15 mins.

More interesting was building had no heating either, all the air was ducted from the central core where various units blended it with the warm air from computer server rooms. Effectively they redistributed the heat, and the glazing did the rest, letting in sunlight, but no cold drafts as there were no opening windows.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Re the English changes, good but not enough for new builds in my view.

Re light sensors - it should be mandatory that for toilets there is a sensor above each cubicle!